Liquor Store Carry

[Fallguy]

How 'bout a gun range? I've carried at gun ranges long before having a HCP and have done so in many states. If the logic of the law is that the property owner can't grant you the right to OC/CC on their property then technically the Po-Po can roll you up on the spot, right? I understand that there is somewhat of an implied purpose to being on a range, however, the situation is the same. When I was younger (before I was old enough to have a HCP) I carried around my Grandparent's ranch. Would that be breaking the law? I just don't think this is prosecutable and certainly not something that an LEO would go out of his way to enforce. Maybe if a crime was committed at the time of carry it could be thrown on there as a extra charge but otherwise I just don't see this being a big deal.

I had thought of that for a minute...but as OS said, sports shooting is specifically listed as a defense 39-17-1308(a)(4)

As far as your grandfathers ranch.....I agree with you in that since you had his permission it was ok.

[Oh Shoot]

OhShoot, You've tossed a hand grenade in the ring ...

Yes, and I admit that a certain part of the boom is being devil's advocate ... I see that FG has sided with your interpretation, too, and that hurts ...

...but show us a definition of 'place of business' which has ownership as a requirement.

I'd contend that the intent is that the owner has a "place of business", anyone else has a "place of employment". There are lots of terms in TCA that aren't exactly defined, and certainly unintended use of some that are.

I'm aware of a number of cases where family businesses have access (ie sitting next to the cash drawer) to loaded firearms, and all family members did not have an HCP. In some cases with minor family members having access to the loaded firearm.

People get away with a lot more than they don't, in every aspect of the law.

Perhaps direct family would be considered as owners also, since without corporate entity they are direct heirs to it. Or perhaps "place of business" was intended to cover "managers" of larger businesses where the owner is not generally present, or someone in control of the business operation (which might indeed give an out to whoever is minding the store that day, I'll give you that) who knows? Does it cover a pastor of a church? Churches don't have "owners", and most congregations can fire pastors, protestant ones anyway, so the pastor is actually an employee. Etc.

Again, how can the owner of a business allow a minor to carry a loaded firearm, but an adult family member who works there can't?

Quirk of the law, poorly worded as to intent, not unusual at all.

Probably that particular exception for the juvenile, the "real property" exception, was put in there as legal opportunity for the juvenile to shoot on someone's land, as the other exceptions only mention "established range" and "organized competition" as opportunities to do so. Again, likely unintended use of "real property", which is actually legally defined, if not in TCA in law in general. Refer to "collective intelligence" in former post.

Lots of "how cans" in TCA - the Weapons section is perhaps more rife with them than most:

- How can I lose my HCP for 3 years if I get drunk in Red Lobster while packing but non-HCP guy with me who does same can get his HCP right after sentencing for carrying under influence and unlawful carry?

- How can I lose HCP for carrying past a sign (untested, I know, but TCA says so), but non-HCP person can get HCP right after conviction for same?

- How can I lose HCP for duration of Class A 'meanor conviction but non permit holder get his permit right after same conviction, including DUI?

- How can I (as non-student adult) store a gun in my car on campus, but a student adult can't? (here's your juvenile/adult irony in reverse!)

Etc, ad nauseam. All quirks, most all unintended. These guys on the Nashville Hill aren't the intelligentsia. Most aren't lawyers, and the ones that are aren't necessarily good ones.

In spite of all the gray, I continue to posit that it is was not intended to include employees in the general sense, whether burger flippers or engineers, and a cop is as likely as not to arrest either one for carrying on the job without a permit should they be called there -- and a judge would likely convict him.

And again, I'd state that people get away with a lot more than they don't -- God knows I have.

- OS

addendum: Btw, in trying to think of any case law, anyone know the outcome of that nightclub shootout thing in (middle?) TN not long ago involving the bouncers or "security"? Were those guys armed guard licensed, or have HCPs, or just armed via being at their "place of business"? What did they wind up being charged with, anything?

[Fallguy]

Yes, and I admit that a certain part of the boom is being devil's advocate ... I see that FG has sided with your interpretation, too, and that hurts ...

Well...I can see your side...it's just that before any debate I looked at in the way I do.

I will admit your "place of employment" v "place of business" is interesting.

I would almost think of trying to get an AG opinion...but I don't know of too many "favorable" firearms opinions of his...lol

addendum: Btw, in trying to think of any case law, anyone know the outcome of that nightclub shootout thing in (middle?) TN not long ago involving the bouncers or "security"? Were those guys armed guard licensed, or have HCPs, or just armed via being at their "place of business"? What did they wind up being charged with, anything?

Have not heard any more about it. It will be interesting to see what, if anything, happens. I think the biggest issue there though is about not have a security license more than anything else.

[Oh Shoot]

...I would almost think of trying to get an AG opinion...but I don't know of too many "favorable" firearms opinions of his...lol...

I see you have to bump it up the bureaucratic food chain to get one:

"Who may request an opinion from the Attorney General?

The Attorney General is required to provide written legal opinions to "the governor, secretary of state, state treasurer, comptroller of the treasury, members of the general assembly and other state officials...in the discharge of their official duties." Tenn. Code Ann. § 8-6-109 (

(6).

The Attorney General cannot issue opinions to county or local government officials or to private citizens."

- OS

Edited November 21, 2011 by OhShoot

[Fallguy]

I see you have to bump it up the bureaucratic food chain to get one:

"Who may request an opinion from the Attorney General?

The Attorney General is required to provide written legal opinions to "the governor, secretary of state, state treasurer, comptroller of the treasury, members of the general assembly and other state officials...in the discharge of their official duties." Tenn. Code Ann. § 8-6-109 (

(6).

The Attorney General cannot issue opinions to county or local government officials or to private citizens."

- OS

Yeah...you got back to your post before I did...

I have sent questions to my Rep in the past and he forwarded them on to the AG for me (07-143). Another time he consulted the House Legal Staff and relayed their opinion to me (non-LEO, non-security carry of batons).

From what I've read of the TCA and TN Constitution, nothing actually prevents the AG from giving opinions to citizens that may ask for one, just that he is "required" to give them to some people.

In other states AGs do give "unofficial" opinions to citizens.

[Oh Shoot]

...I have sent questions to my Rep in the past and he forwarded them on to the AG for me ...

I may try it through my rep as I've now spent enough time on the issue that I want to know.

Kinda hate to do it through my rep though, he's one of the staunchest anti-gun ones of all, Joe Armstrong. Would wonder if he might try to (further) poison the AG's mind, if indeed he even acts on it.

- OS

[Fallguy]

I may try it through my rep as I've now spent enough time on the issue that I want to know.

Kinda hate to do it through my rep though, he's one of the staunchest anti-gun ones of all, Joe Armstrong. Would wonder if he might try to (further) poison the AG's mind, if indeed he even acts on it.

- OS

Well can try and go through your Senator instead....

[Oh Shoot]

Well can try and go through your Senator instead....

Damn, of course, dunno why I was thinking it had to be Rep. Mine's Crazy Stacey, one of our main gun guys there. I'll consider it for sure.

- OS

[JayC]

I just don't know how wise it is to ask the current AG anything about guns? This is the same guy who says you can be convicted of a felony for carrying in an otherwise unposted public park because unknown to you a school is using the park for a sporting event. An opinion completely unsupported by the letter of the law.

Maybe it's best we don't mess up what appears to be a pass given to business owners and their families (which I know some are using today) just to settle an online forum bet. Even though I'm sure I'm right j/k

[Guest kirkosaurus]

Please don't go into my liquor store and make them post. I like going there; it's close to my house and it's the only one in Clarksville that keeps the Sam Adam's Imperial series constantly cold so it doesn't get skunky.

You handled this nicely even though the shop keeper has the right to request you not carry. If he feels this strongly then he should post. My personal concern here is, why would you even want to open carry and give away your "edge of surprise" in a tactical situation?

The other issue is people like this shop keeper/owner will now post and that will hurt everyone who carries.

Never mention signs. They might end up actually posting, thus ruining it for concealed carriers.

If a business owner posts a "no guns" sign obviously they are anti-gun. I don't understand why any of you people would want to continue to give money to a business that is anti-gun? There are too many pro-gun businesses out there that don't deny your right to protect yourself.

Edited November 23, 2011 by kirkosaurus

[R_Bert]

Lines are crossed. People "become" anti-gun , and then some "actionably" anti-gun.

No need to tickle the dragon and push them over the line (regardless of whether the business is patronized or not).

[TMF]

If a business owner posts a "no guns" sign obviously they are anti-gun. I don't understand why any of you people would want to continue to give money to a business that is anti-gun? There are too many pro-gun businesses out there that don't deny your right to protect yourself.

No, the point was to prevent them from posting. Incidents like these are what causes businesses to post. I really don't care what their stance is on the 2nd Amendment or what their political leanings are. I just don't want to have to drive to the sh*tty part of town to buy booze when there is a very nice place only a mile from my house. My HCP doesn't make me an activist, it makes me an individual who has taken extra steps to ensure the safety of myself and my family.

Edited November 25, 2011 by TMF 18B

[Guest dubaholic2]

i stopped at a liquor store by my house when i lived in maryville and was asked to leave because i was carrying. it wasnt posted, i was doing nothing wrong, just walking down an isle with my wife and was stopped and asked to leave because " you cant carry in here." i told the guy what a f'ing idiot he was and that he needed to learn the law before he tried to enforce it and have done my best to disuade everyone i know from going there.

[TMF]

i stopped at a liquor store by my house when i lived in maryville and was asked to leave because i was carrying. it wasnt posted, i was doing nothing wrong, just walking down an isle with my wife and was stopped and asked to leave because " you cant carry in here." i told the guy what a f'ing idiot he was and that he needed to learn the law before he tried to enforce it and have done my best to disuade everyone i know from going there.

Well it sounds to me like he didn't violate the law at all. He has the right to ask someone to leave for carrying even if it's not posted; any business has that right. The same as if you came in there with an offensive shirt on with no posting on the door against offensive clothing. It's your 1st Amendment right to wear an offensive shirt, however, he can ask you to leave because of it. The only difference between his business and a posted business is that you can't be charged with a crime for carrying in there.

[Guest WingMan380]

I carry concealed. Most of the time deep concealed in pocket holster and have never been confronted by misinformed or ignorant store owners or clerks. In the event it does happen; I keep a couple of the TGO "NO guns = NO money" business cards in my wallet for handing to them to read while I put my money back in my wallet and leave. I encourage ALL permit holders to do the same.

I'm still kind of a new member here, did not know TGO had such a thing as a "no guns = no money" business card. How do I get my hands on these? Sounds like an awesome tool!