Liquor Store Carry

[Oh Shoot]

...It's clear that the legislature intended for 'place of business' to be something other than a persons residence or their premises, since premises would cover all property owned, leased or rented by a person, it's clear that place of the business was something more than the other two cover...

Maybe. I dunno. Seems as logical to me that they meant to cover folks who own a business -- seems if they wanted to make it clear that it includes anyone working at the location, they would have said "place of employment" also.

I suspect they did not, because if they said that, then your employer could not legally stop you from carrying there since to the best of my knowledge, this statute has been worded this way from before HCP carry was enacted (ie, there would be no option for posting the facility to keep employees from carrying)

Further, even nowadays for those many many businesses which ban weapons, many if not most of those do not post their property, and yet are allowed to ban the weapons, which they could not legally do without posting if "one's place of business" was meant to refer to all workers at a location.

Also I wonder if "one's place of business" is separated from "premises" to cover those who perform their (owned) business in locations they do not own/rent or control?

If you're aware of case law that reduces the 'place of business' defense in TCA 39-17-1307, I'm all ears.

I do not, but neither do I know of any to support your interpretation. Just as we have no case law to determine if carrying past a posting that is not statute compliant will get you a $500 fine (and loss of permit). However, it may exist either way, I just don't know, and have never seen any cited.

Now for my practical example... ever go into a gun store before the HCP law was passed? Notice how all the employees were carrying firearms? How exactly was that legal? They all couldn't be owners, or be reserve deputies.

Well, I did, but that would have been pre 1989, and infrequently, and back then most "gun stores" were still "hardware stores" and "sporting goods stores" but certainly don't recall seeing multiple employees doing so. But if you say it was so .. wait, you would have been 14 and younger, but you remember that being the case, really?

Btw, not being argumentative just for form or anything, this is a topic that arises now and then, and have never seen any even relatively definitive answer, since as I mentioned, I saw two attorneys disagree on the matter too.

- OS

Edited November 19, 2011 by OhShoot

[Oh Shoot]

Just for reference, it was actually illegal until about 2006 or 2007 (I can't remember exactly) to carry in any place that served OR sold alcohol, so it was illegal to carry in a TN liquor store, or a Kroger for that matter.

Yeah, that was hanging there in the back of my mind that they had changed the statute to distinguish between "served" and "carryout" designation, but wasn't sure if or when, as didn't get permit till halfway through '08, so didn't keep up with exact laws regarding that. Thanks.

- OS

[Fallguy]

Just for reference, it was actually illegal until about 2006 or 2007 (I can't remember exactly) to carry in any place that served OR sold alcohol, so it was illegal to carry in a TN liquor store, or a Kroger for that matter.

Actually it was all the way back in 2001, so over 10 years ago.

Public Chapter 345 (2001)

[Oh Shoot]

Actually it was all the way back in 2001, so over 10 years ago.

Public Chapter 345 (2001)

Ah, thanks for that even MORE informative info.

So what's your take on the "one's place of business" as per the above debate? I'm sure you've opined on it before, but don't remember your take.

- OS

[Fallguy]

Ah, thanks for that even MORE informative info.

So what's your take on the "one's place of business" as per the above debate? I'm sure you've opined on it before, but don't remember your take.

- OS

I tend to lean toward if you work there...it is your place of business.

But I wouldn't be surprised if a court ruled that that isn't the case.

....and i for sure wouldn't be surprised if asked for an opinion the AG would say that isn't the case.

[Oh Shoot]

I tend to lean toward if you work there...it is your place of business. ...

Then an employer couldn't bar you from carrying, probably not even with a compliant posting, since certainly no would question that the owner could carry there, sign or not, yes?

Then again, the rebuttal to that is that I guess in TN you can be fired for any reason?

- OS

Edited November 19, 2011 by OhShoot

[Fallguy]

Then an employer couldn't bar you from carrying, probably not even with a compliant posting, since certainly no would question that the owner could carry there, sign or not, yes?

- OS

Hmmmm...well I've still felt the employer could prevent you from carrying even without a posting.

Since "place of business" is a defense and not an exception, also since possesion is illegal in general.

Sort of like the AG has said that a property owner can say No OC or No CC or no carry at all, even if not posted.

[JayC]

OShoot,

Using your logic, then place of business only covers the owner, how does his wife, or his children carry legally? Do they get charged with a crime for the pistol or shotgun under the counter? Of course not. The premise clause covers any business you own already since that would cover all land you own, lease or rent. So why add place of business?

As for the argument about employers, many don't post... I suspect that the reason they don't is because they can fire you if they find you carrying a firearm. The same way they keep most employees from carrying with their HCP today. Why do they need a criminal charge on top of that?

As for my memories as a teenager, I remember the first 'gun' store I went into after moving down here and being amazed that everybody behind the counter was carrying a pistol on their hip It struck a cord with me.

Just curious how do you own a business, but don't rent or control the place of business?

Maybe. I dunno. Seems as logical to me that they meant to cover folks who own a business -- seems if they wanted to make it clear that it includes anyone working at the location, they would have said "place of employment" also.

I suspect they did not, because if they said that, then your employer could not legally stop you from carrying there since to the best of my knowledge, this statute has been worded this way from before HCP carry was enacted (ie, there would be no option for posting the facility to keep employees from carrying)

Further, even nowadays for those many many businesses which ban weapons, many if not most of those do not post their property, and yet are allowed to ban the weapons, which they could not legally do without posting if "one's place of business" was meant to refer to all workers at a location.

Also I wonder if "one's place of business" is separated from "premises" to cover those who perform their (owned) business in locations they do not own/rent or control?

I do not, but neither do I know of any to support your interpretation. Just as we have no case law to determine if carrying past a posting that is not statute compliant will get you a $500 fine (and loss of permit). However, it may exist either way, I just don't know, and have never seen any cited.

Well, I did, but that would have been pre 1989, and infrequently, and back then most "gun stores" were still "hardware stores" and "sporting goods stores" but certainly don't recall seeing multiple employees doing so. But if you say it was so .. wait, you would have been 14 and younger, but you remember that being the case, really?

Btw, not being argumentative just for form or anything, this is a topic that arises now and then, and have never seen any even relatively definitive answer, since as I mentioned, I saw two attorneys disagree on the matter too.

- OS

[Guest ArmyVeteran37214]

Other than giving him a copy of this if you'd like....there is much you can do to change someones mind. Some will not change their posistion no matter how is shown to them, short of someone they respect of think is knowledgeable telling them.

+1

IMO, You can't fix stupid people like the store owner mentioned in OP.

Wouldn't the owner be screwing himself over by posting, if he wants to be the only one in his business armed?

[JayC]

I think we can all agree an owner doesn't need a HCP to have a firearm in his business, and thus is not impacted by a 39-17-1359 posting. There is some question about employees, but I think the general consensus is that an owner can carry without a permit on his property.

+1

IMO, You can't fix stupid people like the store owner mentioned in OP.

Wouldn't the owner be screwing himself over by posting, if he wants to be the only one in his business armed?

[TMF]

I would just avoid confrontation with managers/employees like that at all costs. The more it's brought to his attention the more likely he's going to do the research and put up a legal posting.

[Proscene]

You handled this nicely even though the shop keeper has the right to request you not carry. If he feels this strongly then he should post. My personal concern here is, why would you even want to open carry and give away your "edge of surprise" in a tactical situation?

The other issue is people like this shop keeper/owner will now post and that will hurt everyone who carries.

[Oh Shoot]

As for my memories as a teenager, I remember the first 'gun' store I went into after moving down here and being amazed that everybody behind the counter was carrying a pistol on their hip It struck a cord with me.

What year of your teenagery, though? At 15-19, folks could get permits. 13-14 they couldn't. And (sorry, old English teacher here) that's "chord".

Would like to hear from any gun store owners/employees here that were working in pre-permit days, though.

...Just curious how do you own a business, but don't rent or control the place of business?

Thinking of all the folks who travel around to do their work? Freelancers may not even have a commercial brick and mortar location at all, only home and vehicle: photogs, plumbers, excavators, you name it. If you're going to be so liberal with the term, isn't wherever these folks go their "place of business"?

Why can't anyone who works out and about carry without a permit, as even their auto is their place of business while they occupy it to conduct their business. You know good and well that a cop can and likely will bust a trucker for having a loaded gun without a permit and easily get a conviction, yet certainly that rig is his place of business.

Also, how do you square that many people cannot carry in their place of business by other state statutes. Like anyone who works at a school? Why does the school carry statute override the carry at your place of work statute? The reason is perhaps that there is no conflict because the carry law doesn't apply to employees, and there is no owner/person of the school.

Again, I don't know, and every time this topic comes up, I'm surprised there hasn't been clear cut case law established, or the statute clarified by legislature by now.

- OS

Edited November 19, 2011 by OhShoot

[shaftbass]

Just another reason I keep my gun out of sight from everyone. Most people don't know the laws, and it keeps you from getting into any kind of anything regarding your carry status.

[jtmaze]

Even if you don't have an HCP and are carrying unlawfully, you can't be prosecuted on charge of carrying where booze is sold.

Debatable whether a non-HCP employee can have a gun at his work at all, even with consent of owner, but certainly posting a sign of any kind has nothing to do with it.

- OS

What I meant was if there is a gun buster sign on the door and he has a permit. Could a business owner ( not property ) carry a weapon in his business.

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[Fallguy]

What I meant was if there is a gun buster sign on the door and he has a permit. Could a business owner ( not property ) carry a weapon in his business.

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Yes

[Fallguy]

You handled this nicely even though the shop keeper has the right to request you not carry. If he feels this strongly then he should post. My personal concern here is, why would you even want to open carry and give away your "edge of surprise" in a tactical situation?

The other issue is people like this shop keeper/owner will now post and that will hurt everyone who carries.

There are many threads on the OC v CC debate if you want to do a search and check them.

[Oh Shoot]

What I meant was if there is a gun buster sign on the door and he has a permit. Could a business owner ( not property ) carry a weapon in his business.

Yes

Yes, agree.

But unlike JayC's stand, I contend that the sign would apply to employees (with or without HCP). That the intent of the law is to give business owner certain carry rights, but not employees, any more than walk-in customers, visitors, vendors, whatever.

- OS

Edited November 19, 2011 by OhShoot

[jtmaze]

Thank you for your answers. This topic came up when I forgot I had my serpa oc holster on when going to play a pool tourney at a friends pool room. I usually cc carry there just to avoid the looks of the other customers. The owner pretty much stood up for me when a customer quizzed him about it. And we got to talking about whether he could post and still keep a gun behind the bar. All pool rooms are in questionable locations and I am sure I am not the only armed person in the building.

I don't think if I answered his question about posting and that he would actually do it but you don't want the place to turn into the Wild West.

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[Timestepper]

I don't think if I answered his question about posting and that he would actually do it but you don't want the place to turn into the Wild West.

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Actually, for the most part the "Wild West" wasn't really as wild as it's been made out to be, but I think we get your point.

...TS...

[JayC]

This would have been in late 86 or very early 87.

I think freelancers, or folks who do work for others don't qualify under the place of business defense... Your house that I show up at once isn't my regular place of business... my shop or garage that I keep my supplies in would be my place of business.

Again I would point to the common definition of a 'place of business' -

place of business - an establishment (a factory or an assembly plant or retail store or warehouse etc.) where business is conducted, goods are made or stored or processed or where services are rendered

I'm just a layperson but that would seem to prohibit most vehicles since a vehicle normally isn't an establishment. I know this does open to door for some strange exceptions to the rules... for example motor homes are they vehicles or are they homes when it comes to TN gun laws? Another example would be a 'roach coach', is that a place of business or a vehicle? I have no clue what the case law is on these types of situations.

Also, as to your wouldn't this cover schools question... the law against having firearms in schools is separate from the general prohibition of carrying loaded firearms in TN - the place of business defense doesn't cover the school carry section of the law. Second, I don't think a school or any other government building could be considered a place of business under the common definition, but again that is my opinion.

I think this is yet another example of of how poorly our handgun laws are written. Why shouldn't an adult be able to carry a gun at his place of business (including employees) without a permit? If the employer doesn't want people to carry they can fire anybody who does, but it shouldn't be a criminal act.

What year of your teenagery, though? At 15-19, folks could get permits. 13-14 they couldn't. And (sorry, old English teacher here) that's "chord".

Would like to hear from any gun store owners/employees here that were working in pre-permit days, though.

Thinking of all the folks who travel around to do their work? Freelancers may not even have a commercial brick and mortar location at all, only home and vehicle: photogs, plumbers, excavators, you name it. If you're going to be so liberal with the term, isn't wherever these folks go their "place of business"?

Why can't anyone who works out and about carry without a permit, as even their auto is their place of business while they occupy it to conduct their business. You know good and well that a cop can and likely will bust a trucker for having a loaded gun without a permit and easily get a conviction, yet certainly that rig is his place of business.

Also, how do you square that many people cannot carry in their place of business by other state statutes. Like anyone who works at a school? Why does the school carry statute override the carry at your place of work statute? The reason is perhaps that there is no conflict because the carry law doesn't apply to employees, and there is no owner/person of the school.

Again, I don't know, and every time this topic comes up, I'm surprised there hasn't been clear cut case law established, or the statute clarified by legislature by now.

- OS

[JayC]

Yes, agree.

But unlike JayC's stand, I contend that the sign would apply to employees (with or without HCP). That the intent of the law is to give business owner certain carry rights, but not employees, any more than walk-in customers, visitors, vendors, whatever.

- OS

OhShoot,

A posting under 39-17-1359 only impacts HCP holders, and has no impact what so ever on the legality of employee carry under a 39-17-1308a3 defense.

39-17-1359a2:

The prohibition in subdivision (a)(1) shall apply to any person who is authorized to carry a firearm by authority of § 39-17-1351.

[Guest pfries]

What I meant was if there is a gun buster sign on the door and he has a permit. Could a business owner ( not property ) carry a weapon in his business.

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Owner yes

As far as a representative/employee, I am not sure.

[Oh Shoot]

OhShoot,

A posting under 39-17-1359 only impacts HCP holders, and has no impact what so ever on the legality of employee carry under a 39-17-1308a3 defense.

39-17-1359a2:

"The prohibition in subdivision (a)(1) shall apply to any person who is authorized to carry a firearm by authority

Ah, you selectively quote part of the statute to make your stance.

Note it does not say "only apply..." It is written that way to be clear that it includes HCP holders also.

The first part sentence of 1359 is all inclusive:

"(a) (1) An individual, corporation, business entity or local, state or federal government entity or agent thereof is authorized to prohibit the possession of weapons by any person who is at a meeting conducted by, or on property owned, operated, or managed or under the control of the individual, corporation, business entity or government entity."

- OS

[DaveTN]

I don’t think it is going to be an issue without a complaint from the owner, and I doubt an owner will call the Police on an employee.

Have we had a case (that can be documented) yet of someone carrying past a sign and being arrested or cited for that only?