Liquor Store Carry

[Oh Shoot]

I don’t think it is going to be an issue without a complaint from the owner, and I doubt an owner will call the Police on an employee.

Have we had a case (that can be documented) yet of someone carrying past a sign and being arrested or cited for that only?

Not yet, that we know of.

Surely there must be a precedent though, of an employee being arrested for unlawful carry? Maybe not, but seems hard to believe it hasn't happened.

Seems it would not be all that uncommon scenario: employee spotted with gun, cops are called, individual does not have HCP, wouldn't the primary logical charge be unlawful carry under 39-17-1307?

Again, since I just don't think the "one's place of business" is intended as defense from prosecution for an employee.

- OS

[JayC]

If the owner of a business can give a minor permission to carry a loaded handgun....

TCA 39-17-1319d1F

On real property which is under the control of an adult and has the permission of that adult and the juvenile's parent or legal guardian to possess a handgun;

Yet somehow an adult has more restrictions under 39-17-1308?

Using your logic... The owner of a business has a daughter who watches the cash register at their family restaurant... while 17 and under she is allowed to have access to a loaded pistol, but the day she turns 18 she is violating the law having access to that same pistol... when she turns 21 and gets an HCP all of a sudden she's allowed access to the pistol again, until her father (unwisely) posts the building, then she can not longer legally have access to the pistol. Even if his intent is not to disarm his family running the business.

Because if you're right and the 39-17-1308 'place of business' defense doesn't cover family members and employees that is the outcome you're describing. I know TN gun laws are messed up, but I don't even think they're that messed up.

OhShoot, if residence and premises cover virtually all business situations, why did the legislature include a third defense of one's place of business? What case does place of business cover that residence and premises don't if only the business owner, not his family or employees is covered? Why did they add it?

Not yet, that we know of.

Surely there must be a precedent though, of an employee being arrested for unlawful carry? Maybe not, but seems hard to believe it hasn't happened.

Seems it would not be all that uncommon scenario: employee spotted with gun, cops are called, individual does not have HCP, wouldn't the primary logical charge be unlawful carry under 39-17-1307?

Again, since I just don't think the "one's place of business" is intended as defense from prosecution for an employee.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

...Using your logic... The owner of a business has a daughter who watches the cash register at their family restaurant... while 17 and under she is allowed to have access to a loaded pistol, but the day she turns 18 she is violating the law having access to that same pistol...

Well, now your splitting the hair much finer. Also, we are both positing the intent of the legislature (which has the collective intelligence of a gifted amoeba), but:

1. Did the legislature intend to include business location under the "control of real property" wording as far as the minor is concerned? I'd guess no.

2. Is it against the law for anyone to "have access" to the owner's pistol in the cash register? Not to my knowledge, any more than it is for anyone to "have access" to the owner's pistol in his home. If the owner puts it there, anyone could have access to it, with or without permission. No different than having it "accessible" in the home, as to my knowledge TN, unlike some states, doesn't have a penalty for keeping loaded gun accessible to minors. Doubt if it is a violation until someone picks it up. And of course if used in a good shoot, no other firearm violations can be prosecuted.

3. Though the law doesn't specify difference, don't you think that that the judicial system would see a big diff in an employee having "access" to owner's gun and actually carrying one?

OhShoot, if residence and premises cover virtually all business situations, why did the legislature include a third defense of one's place of business? What case does place of business cover that residence and premises don't if only the business owner, not his family or employees is covered? Why did they add it?

Perhaps to make it plain that business location was covered also, as "residence" and even "premises" generally connote personal property, at least in the common usage, and TN statutes are NOT generally written in precise legalese. (refer to "collective intelligence" above).

Think I'll just leave it by re-iterating my premise in my previous post.

Bugerflipper at McDonalds is reported to police (by manager, customer, fellow worker, etc) as having a gun on him. Cops arrive, and sure enough, the guy has a loaded .38, no HCP. What do you think would happen, both at the scene and/or in court?

1. Cops let him go and he gets to keep loaded pistol on him because he has a right to carry at his place of business.

2. Cops arrest him for unlawful carry and take pistol.

If 2, and lesser plea of disturbing peace or something not copped, then:

1. Judge throws out case because bugerflipper had right to carry at his place of business.

2. Bugerflipper convicted of unlawful carry.

- OS

[G27]

That's one business that would never get another dime of my money.

[JayC]

I'm just pointing out, the legislature in theory (and probably giving them too much credit) included the place of business defense for a reason, because it covers locations not covered under the premises defense. Premise to my laypersons knowledge includes all real property that is owned, leased, rented, or otherwise under the control of a person. That obviously include any business location owned or leased by a person, so again why include the place of business defense if it doesn't cover more....

1. I think it's clear that the legislature did intend that minors would be allowed to posses including concealed firearms in a business under 39-17-1319.

2. As I understand it, possession of a firearm includes ready access to a loaded firearm. If your friend with an HCP places a loaded gun in his car within easy reach of the driver, and you drive the car knowing the vehicle contains the weapon, that would appear to be possession of a firearm. The same would be said for a handgun sitting under the counter loaded and ready to be used for protection.

3. Maybe, maybe not... I don't think there is good case law on the subject... I seriously doubt somebody is going to get arrested for carrying a firearm at work with the owners permission... unless the person carrying the firearm is doing something very stupid... most officers realize business owners/employees need to be able to protect themselves.

My point is this, minors can carry loaded firearms on real property that is under control of an adult who gives permission and their parent also gives permission... real property clearly includes businesses, among other locations, residence is clearly covered as a separate defense under the law.

No way that legislative intent was to prohibit a wife of the owner from carrying a pistol without a permit, but allows the owners minor child to carry.

I also contend, that place of business defense obviously covers more than just the owner of the property... but neither of us will know who is right until there is case law on point.

Well, now your splitting the hair much finer. Also, we are both positing the intent of the legislature (which has the collective intelligence of a gifted amoeba), but:

1. Did the legislature intend to include business location under the "control of real property" wording as far as the minor is concerned? I'd guess no.

2. Is it against the law for anyone to "have access" to the owner's pistol in the cash register? Not to my knowledge, any more than it is for anyone to "have access" to the owner's pistol in his home. If the owner puts it there, anyone could have access to it, with or without permission. No different than having it "accessible" in the home, as to my knowledge TN, unlike some states, doesn't have a penalty for keeping loaded gun accessible to minors. Doubt if it is a violation until someone picks it up. And of course if used in a good shoot, no other firearm violations can be prosecuted.

3. Though the law doesn't specify difference, don't you think that that the judicial system would see a big diff in an employee having "access" to owner's gun and actually carrying one?

Perhaps to make it plain that business location was covered also, as "residence" and even "premises" generally connote personal property, at least in the common usage, and TN statutes are NOT generally written in precise legalese. (refer to "collective intelligence" above).

Think I'll just leave it by re-iterating my premise in my previous post.

Bugerflipper at McDonalds is reported to police (by manager, customer, fellow worker, etc) as having a gun on him. Cops arrive, and sure enough, the guy has a loaded .38, no HCP. What do you think would happen, both at the scene and/or in court?

1. Cops let him go and he gets to keep loaded pistol on him because he has a right to carry at his place of business.

2. Cops arrest him for unlawful carry and take pistol.

If 2, and lesser plea of disturbing peace or something not copped, then:

1. Judge throws out case because bugerflipper had right to carry at his place of business.

2. Bugerflipper convicted of unlawful carry.

- OS

[strickj]

OS, there are lots of people that carry at their work, with permission from owner, that do not have permits.

You really think all those pawn shop, jewelry store and convenience store employees have permits? You think that's a requirement for employment at these places?

Owner says, "I will give you a job but you can not start until you receive your permit, which will probably be another month or so".

I think you're the only person I've come across that's debated the language here.

Edit,

A persons' "place of business", even for "free lancers", is going to be the address listed on their business license, tax number, etc.

If they don't make enough monies to have to have one of these, then I doubt they'll make enough money to have employees, either, which makes that a moot point...

[Guest Overtaker]

I looked at the door thinking I'd missed a sign and said "I looked for a sign did I miss it?"

Never mention signs. They might end up actually posting, thus ruining it for concealed carriers.

[Oh Shoot]

...

Owner says, "I will give you a job but you can not start until you receive your permit, which will probably be another month or so".

...

Have you been snoozing?

Debate is about non HCP holders legally carrying where they work, under 1308.

Obviously, it is not a violation of 1307 to carry at your work with an HCP. You might get fired, but not prosecuted.

Additionally, I would contend that except for owner, though, it is also a violation of 1351 to carry (with or without an HCP) at your workplace if place is properly posted.

- OS

Edited November 21, 2011 by OhShoot

[JayC]

Well 1319 for minors, and 1308 for adults Just encase somebody looks up the exact law

Have you been snoozing?

Debate is about non HCP holders legally carrying where they work, under 1319.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

Well 1319 for minors, and 1308 for adults Just encase somebody looks up the exact law

I was editing mistake as you were posting.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

...I also contend, that place of business defense obviously covers more than just the owner of the property... but neither of us will know who is right until there is case law on point.

You sidestepped my elaborate question. I pose it, because surely it HAS happened, hard to believe if it hasn't in all the years since 1307-1308 has been on the books (predates HCP by far, I'm sure):

So I repeat:

Bugerflipper at McDonalds is reported to police (by manager, customer, fellow worker, etc) as having a gun on him. Cops arrive, and sure enough, the guy has a loaded .38, no HCP. What do you think would happen, both at the scene and/or in court?

1. Cops let him go and he gets to keep loaded pistol on him because he has a right to carry at his place of business.

2. Cops arrest him for unlawful carry and take pistol.

If 2, and lesser plea of disturbing peace or something not copped, then:

1. Judge throws out case because bugerflipper had right to carry at his place of business.

2. Bugerflipper convicted of unlawful carry.

- OS

[Guest pfries]

So I repeat:

Bugerflipper at McDonalds is reported to police (by manager, customer, fellow worker, etc) as having a gun on him. Cops arrive, and sure enough, the guy has a loaded .38, no HCP. What do you think would happen, both at the scene and/or in court?

- OS

If the manager reports said burger flipper, said burger flipper did not have permission?

[Oh Shoot]

If the manager reports said burger flipper, said burger flipper did not have permission?

What does permission matter for 1307? It is not a defense for unlawful carry in 1308 or any other statute (for an adult anyway).

I can't even give you permission to carry as a non-HCP holder in my own apartment. If you're caught here packing you can be busted.

- OS

[Fallguy]

Although not mentioned specifically in the law...I too go with the "permission of the owner" of place of business.

At the end of the day the owner of the property has control of his property and as long as it is allowed by law he can choose what he allows and what he doesn't.

But I admit I am not 100% sure....and also with a strict reading see how one could see it as only the owner.

But also (about the burger flipper)....no one really has a "right" to carry in TN....only defenses to unlawful carry/possesion. If it was a right...it couldn't be denied by anyone...

[strickj]

Have you been snoozing?

Debate is about non HCP holders legally carrying where they work, under 1308.

Obviously, it is not a violation of 1307 to carry at your work with an HCP. You might get fired, but not prosecuted.

Additionally, I would contend that except for owner, though, it is also a violation of 1351 to carry (with or without an HCP) at your workplace if place is properly posted.

- OS

Did you take your alzheimers meds?...

OS, there are lots of people that carry at their work, with permission from owner, that do not have permits.

You really think all those pawn shop, jewelry store and convenience store employees have permits? You think that's a requirement for employment at these places?

[Oh Shoot]

....

At the end of the day the owner of the property has control of his property and as long as it is allowed by law he can choose what he allows and what he doesn't....

Where does it say owner of a property can "allow" someone to break the law? Unless you agree that the burger flipper with no HCP has a right to carry at work under the enumerated statutes?

OR he has the right if the "owner" says it's okay, even though that's NOT in the statutes?

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

Did you take your alzheimers meds?...

Overdosed.

I did miss your other statement:

"OS, there are lots of people that carry at their work, with permission from owner, that do not have permits."

Could we have a few testimonials? I know of none.

And if they are, I'd still contend they are carrying unlawfully.

Where in statutes does it make it lawful for a non-permit holder to carry because the boss says it's okay?

Again, it doesn't make it lawful for you to pack in my home if you don't have an HCP just because I tell you it's okay. Why should it be different at my business location, when a residence has the most legal protection of all places?

- OS

Edited November 21, 2011 by OhShoot

[strickj]

Could we have a few testimonials? I know of none.

Testimonials?

Ask pawn shop, jewelry store and convenience store employees...

Again, it doesn't make it lawful for you to pack in my home if you don't have an HCP just because I tell you it's okay. Why should it be different at my business location, when a residence has the most legal protection of all places?

- OS

Where does it say that? "Carrying" is what, having a loaded firearm on your person? You mean, I can not handle a loaded firearm in your apartment, a gun range or a friends private land with their permissions?

Sheesh... must be a lot of folks being arrested for carrying at gun ranges, eh...

[Oh Shoot]

Testimonials? Ask pawn shop, jewelry store and convenience store employees...

I assume they all have HCP, as you suggested in second part of your original post, that owner required that as part of employment.

...

Where does it say that? "Carrying" is what, having a loaded firearm on your person? You mean, I can not handle a loaded firearm in your apartment, a gun range or a friends private land with their permissions?

Sheesh... must be a lot of folks being arrested for carrying at gun ranges, eh...

Yes, "carrying" is having a loaded gun on your person with intent to go armed (which definition is satisfied by the gun being loaded).

You have none of the defenses listed for that in my apartment without an HCP. You'd have to find some far out judge to concede that you were "hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting" in my digs.

No different than being caught with it in your car, just much less likely. Though I'm sure any number of folks have been arrested for it in private residences in the past (cops called for loud party, domestic stuff, etc).

- OS

Edited November 21, 2011 by OhShoot

[strickj]

I assume they all have HCP, as you suggested in second part of your original post, that owner required that as part of employment.

Well, I guess if you believe that then it must be true.

You have none of the defenses listed for that in my apartment without an HCP. You'd have to find some far out judge to concede that you were "hunting, trapping, fishing, camping, sport shooting" in my digs.

"Your honor, I promise I was shooting at OS in his apartment for the sport of it!"

"People do that all the time... see the knots in his noggin for proof of others shooting at him for sport"

[Oh Shoot]

....

"Your honor, I promise I was shooting at OS in his apartment for the sport of it!"

"People do that all the time... see the knots in his noggin for proof of others shooting at him for sport"

No worries, you have HCP. :)

- OS

[TMF]

Although not mentioned specifically in the law...I too go with the "permission of the owner" of place of business.

At the end of the day the owner of the property has control of his property and as long as it is allowed by law he can choose what he allows and what he doesn't.

But I admit I am not 100% sure....and also with a strict reading see how one could see it as only the owner.

But also (about the burger flipper)....no one really has a "right" to carry in TN....only defenses to unlawful carry/possesion. If it was a right...it couldn't be denied by anyone...

How 'bout a gun range? I've carried at gun ranges long before having a HCP and have done so in many states. If the logic of the law is that the property owner can't grant you the right to OC/CC on their property then technically the Po-Po can roll you up on the spot, right? I understand that there is somewhat of an implied purpose to being on a range, however, the situation is the same. When I was younger (before I was old enough to have a HCP) I carried around my Grandparent's ranch. Would that be breaking the law? I just don't think this is prosecutable and certainly not something that an LEO would go out of his way to enforce. Maybe if a crime was committed at the time of carry it could be thrown on there as a extra charge but otherwise I just don't see this being a big deal.

[Oh Shoot]

How 'bout a gun range? ...

Sport shooting is specific listed defense for unlawful carry.

However, it doesn't apply on the way to the site in your vehicle.

Far as carry on your grandmother's property, I suppose technically you could be guilty of unlawful carry, but as you say, who's gonna bust ya for that -- besides, you were hunting or sport shooting, eh? Plinking at rocks and tin cans is sport shooting. Both listed defenses.

- OS

[JayC]

OhShoot,

You've tossed a hand grenade in the ring... but show us a definition of 'place of business' which has ownership as a requirement.

I'm aware of a number of cases where family businesses have access (ie sitting next to the cash drawer) to loaded firearms, and all family members did not have an HCP. In some cases with minor family members having access to the loaded firearm.

Again, how can the owner of a business allow a minor to carry a loaded firearm, but an adult family member who works there can't?

[Fallguy]

Where does it say owner of a property can "allow" someone to break the law? Unless you agree that the burger flipper with no HCP has a right to carry at work under the enumerated statutes?

OR he has the right if the "owner" says it's okay, even though that's NOT in the statutes?

- OS

I'm not saying an owner can allow someone to break the law...I am saying he can control his property.

A permit issued per 39-17-1351 allows me to carry in general. However a property owner can post per 39-17-1359 to prevent me from carry.

The burger flipper can carry at work per 39-17-1308(a)(3)(. But a property owner having final say can say, "No, you can't carry here."

Again...there is no right to carry in TN.