Liquor Store Carry

[thefinder808]

Ok so I've had my HCP for a little over a week now, I've got a DeSantis IWB holster coming in about a week and until then I'm open carrying. I stopped by Stewarts Ferry Liquors (next to Lucky's Bar) tonight to pick up a bottle of wine for my roommate. I of course looked all around the small entrance for any gun related postings and there were none. I walked in and got what I needed, walked up to the counter and the owner (I'm assuming he's the owner, I've been there several times and he's the only one ever working there) says "You know you're not supposed to have that in here" and points to my Glock. I looked at the door thinking I'd missed a sign and said "I looked for a sign did I miss it?" and he replied "No there's no sign, it's against the law to carry a gun where alcohol is sold."

I know that isn't true but I'm not going to be an ass so I said "I'll remember you don't want me to carry here in the future, after all it's your property. But just to let you know there is no law about that, the guns in bars bill changed that last year." (I'm not sure it was in that bill but I knew it wasn't illegal) He looked at me all snarky and really sarcastically said "Oh sure, right." obviously not believing me and kind of acting like I'm an idiot. Then he said something like "I prefer to be the only one armed in here" in a suggesting tone as though he was ready to shoot me if I tried anything. I just smiled and told him that regardless of the law I will not carry here any more now that he's told me he doesn't like it. I said thank you (he didn't reply) and left. Now what do you do with these type of people? I mean if you're going to tell someone outright that they're breaking the law shouldn't you know if you're right?

The only other wine/liquor store I've carried in (Jackson Downs) isn't posted and neither they nor their security guard looked twice at my gun. I guess I know where I'm going for wine or bourbon now. Sorry to rant but it just pissed me off, but it felt like he was treating me like a suspicious criminal for no reason. I guess I'm going to have to get used to people like this, but I don't have to be happy about it. I can't wait for my DeSantis to get here...

[Oh Shoot]

... But just to let you know there is no law about that, the guns in bars bill changed that last year." (I'm not sure it was in that bill but I knew it wasn't illegal) ...

JFYI, the "guns in bars" bill had no effect on carry in places that sell for off-site consumption.

It was already legal to carry in them if not posted; has been since HCPs were first issued, AFAIK.

- OS

[thefinder808]

JFYI, the "guns in bars" bill had no effect on carry in places that sell for off-site consumption.

It was already legal to carry in them if not posted; has been since HCPs were first issued, AFAIK.

- OS

I was thinking that as I said that to him, but all I was sure of was that it's not illegal to carry there. Do you happen to know what code or statute says that so I can direct him toward it (over the phone)?

[TMF]

You should expect that liquor store to have a legal post sometime in the near future. Regardless of what I/you/anyone here thinks, average people are made uneasy by others carrying weapons. This is the reality we live in; don't expect it to change. Furthermore, someone who works in a liquor store is going to be even more uneasy since liquor stores tend to be a common target of armed robbers.

There is a very nice liquor store in Clarksville that I've been patronizing for the past 8 years or so. I carry in there everytime I go. No one knows. If one day I decided to OC I would expect that the issue would be addressed simply because the nature of the business. Kinda like a bank teller seeing a weapon on your hip, it's going to scare them even though there is no reason to be scared. This is the reality. I would then have to explain to them that I'm not breaking the law which would take valuable minutes from my day and draw attention to me that I just don't desire. After that conversation I would expect that the employee would bring it up to the management or owner and more thorough research would be conducted to determine how to keep armed people from entering the store (as uneducated as that initiative would be, we have to accept reality; not everyone thinks the way we do). Why not just put a shirt over it when going into places like that? It's not that hard to avoid confrontation. It's not that hard to avoid having another business decide to research the law and put up a posting.

I'm not trying to get into the CC vs OC argument. I don't care one way or the other. Just please, know your operational environment and use common sense. Please don't go into my liquor store and make them post. I like going there; it's close to my house and it's the only one in Clarksville that keeps the Sam Adam's Imperial series constantly cold so it doesn't get skunky.

Now, OCers, please inundate me with comments on why I shouldn't patronize that business because they are anti-HCP and therefore don't deserve my money... it's been a couple of weeks since I've had that.

[Oh Shoot]

I was thinking that as I said that to him, but all I was sure of was that it's not illegal to carry there. Do you happen to know what code or statute says that so I can direct him toward it (over the phone)?

No, because TCA doesn't list acts that are NOT unlawful, only those that are.

You won't find a statute that says it is legal to carry in church or bank either, which many folks wrongly claim is illegal in TN too.

Many folks who work in liquor/beer selling stores have also been confused by the ABC signs that used to have to be displayed (now they don't), warning about gun carry there -- which never had anything to do with HCP carry either.

Some places still display them, and some stores have apparently still been erroneously told by idiot ABC agents that they have to.

- OS

[thefinder808]

You should expect that liquor store to have a legal post sometime in the near future. Regardless of what I/you/anyone here thinks, average people are made uneasy by others carrying weapons. This is the reality we live in; don't expect it to change. Furthermore, someone who works in a liquor store is going to be even more uneasy since liquor stores tend to be a common target of armed robbers.

There is a very nice liquor store in Clarksville that I've been patronizing for the past 8 years or so. I carry in there everytime I go. No one knows. If one day I decided to OC I would expect that the issue would be addressed simply because the nature of the business. Kinda like a bank teller seeing a weapon on your hip, it's going to scare them even though there is no reason to be scared. This is the reality. I would then have to explain to them that I'm not breaking the law which would take valuable minutes from my day and draw attention to me that I just don't desire. After that conversation I would expect that the employee would bring it up to the management or owner and more thorough research would be conducted to determine how to keep armed people from entering the store (as uneducated as that initiative would be, we have to accept reality; not everyone thinks the way we do). Why not just put a shirt over it when going into places like that? It's not that hard to avoid confrontation. It's not that hard to avoid having another business decide to research the law and put up a posting.

I'm not trying to get into the CC vs OC argument. I don't care one way or the other. Just please, know your operational environment and use common sense. Please don't go into my liquor store and make them post. I like going there; it's close to my house and it's the only one in Clarksville that keeps the Sam Adam's Imperial series constantly cold so it doesn't get skunky.

Now, OCers, please inundate me with comments on why I shouldn't patronize that business because they are anti-HCP and therefore don't deserve my money... it's been a couple of weeks since I've had that.

I did have button up shirt on that covered most of the grip, and a coat on over that. Unfortunately it's a Glock 19 in bad nylon hip holster and some parts still show (I still consider that open carry). That's how I'm going to carry it for the next week until I get my DeSantis IWB and if someone isn't posted and sees it, and then decides to treat me like an especially stupid criminal, then I'm going to treat them politely, never shop there again, and then rant/post about it here. That's just the way it's going to be (unless I get kicked outta here) sorry if some people don't like it. I've been in there many times over the years so it surprised me when he acted that way. Oh well. If he wants to post that's up to him but there's four more liquor stores within about three miles so he may loose a bit of business.

P.S. I'm not sure how I wasn't using common sense...

Edited November 18, 2011 by thefinder808

[thefinder808]

Good lord I'd be confused by those signs too, maybe that was his problem although he didn't have one in his store. How on earth are those signs even allowed to be displayed???

[Oh Shoot]

Good lord I'd be confused by those signs too, maybe that was his problem although he didn't have one in his store. How on earth are those signs even allowed to be displayed???

Because there's no penalty for displaying them. And because some store owners have been told they still have to by ABC, more of your TN tax money at work. They did have to be displayed for many years; the law was changed a couple years ago, since the statute/penalty was repealed. It was simply an additional charge that could be tacked on to anyone carrying illegally in the first place.

Last time I noticed, there is still one on the front door of Walgreens next to UT campus, and I still see them here and there on the beer coolers in some stores. Others report seeing them behind the bar area at some restaurants (and bars).

- OS

Edited November 18, 2011 by OhShoot

[thefinder808]

The ABC and their infinite wisdom. I've waited tables before and we had to get our ABC certification before we were allowed to serve liquor. It was the biggest waste of time and money...you pay them something like $115 and sit through a 4 hour class...3 1/2 hours of which is the "teacher" telling you they're out of things to "teach" so we can take a nap if we want. The other 30 mins was a video on the little known fact that if you drink a lot of booze you will get drunk. You also have to actually RENEW your certification every few years...as if you could forget something so exciting.

[TMF]

I

P.S. I'm not sure how I wasn't using common sense...

Not trying to insult you at all. Regarding knowledge of operational environment and use of common sense is perhaps a generalization of all individuals here that have had run-ins whilst carrying in places that are inherently on edge due to increased threat level from armed robbers (banks/liquor stores/convenient stores/pawn shops). From your description above you state that a shirt and coat was over the weapon and I take that statement at face value. During the winter months I also switch to an OWB holster since I usually have a coat on when I enter a business. It allows me to conceal the weapon and have better access to it as opposed to staying with an IWB that is covered by multiple layers.

Perhaps I had my "jump to conclusions" mat out and made assumptions based on the information I know: You've had your HCP for a very short period of time (about a week) and have already had a run in with someone who wasn't comfortable with you carrying in their establishment. I've had my HCP for a relatively long time compared to you and have never, ever had someone notice my weapon (to my knowledge) or approach me regarding it. If you are indeed carrying as discreetly as I, by law of averages I should have had several run-ins by now, but have had none. It was only natural for me to assume that you didn't tailor your carry practices to your operational environment which resulted in the incident above. But hey, I also had a holster for both my carry weapons when my HCP arrived so I never had to resort to an awkward or bulky holster that is difficult to conceal.

I guess I've just seen or heard of incidents like this enough times and have always thought that there were obvious ways to avoid confrontation which ultimately leads to more postings and less places I'm willing to go.

[thefinder808]

Not trying to insult you at all. Regarding knowledge of operational environment and use of common sense is perhaps a generalization of all individuals here that have had run-ins whilst carrying in places that are inherently on edge due to increased threat level from armed robbers (banks/liquor stores/convenient stores/pawn shops). From your description above you state that a shirt and coat was over the weapon and I take that statement at face value. During the winter months I also switch to an OWB holster since I usually have a coat on when I enter a business. It allows me to conceal the weapon and have better access to it as opposed to staying with an IWB that is covered by multiple layers.

Perhaps I had my "jump to conclusions" mat out and made assumptions based on the information I know: You've had your HCP for a very short period of time (about a week) and have already had a run in with someone who wasn't comfortable with you carrying in their establishment. I've had my HCP for a relatively long time compared to you and have never, ever had someone notice my weapon (to my knowledge) or approach me regarding it. If you are indeed carrying as discreetly as I, by law of averages I should have had several run-ins by now, but have had none. It was only natural for me to assume that you didn't tailor your carry practices to your operational environment which resulted in the incident above. But hey, I also had a holster for both my carry weapons when my HCP arrived so I never had to resort to an awkward or bulky holster that is difficult to conceal.

I guess I've just seen or heard of incidents like this enough times and have always thought that there were obvious ways to avoid confrontation which ultimately leads to more postings and less places I'm willing to go.

Not completely sure what statement you're making there, but hey thanks for replying to my thread in the first place and posting your opinion. Since you've never had any negative experiences in regards to carrying a gun in public you must be doing a great job representing the HCP community so keep up the good work.

[Guest pfries]

I'm not trying to get into the CC vs OC argument. I don't care one way or the other. Just please, know your operational environment and use common sense.

^^^I agree ^^^

I am not a proponent for OC or CC just carry in general. A large majority of the time when I head into town I CC as it is my preferred method I do not believe I have ever been "Made" while CC'ing. Around the house I OC as it is more comfortable, I have never thought twice about running up to the corner store or even a bit further to the closest gas station while I am OC'ing but I live in a semi rural and firearm friendly area I would lay odds almost all of the old-timers here carry or have one in the truck but I would also wager most do it without a permit (their business not mine). I have made the occasional trip into town or Wally world OC'ing but it is the exception not the rule. I have had a couple of conversations struck up on the issue but none negative.

There is no law against carrying where liquor is sold or consumed as long as you are not taking part in consuming, you can purchase for carry out.

[Mike.357]

Right or wrong this is often what is comes from OC.

Obviously the store owner did not know what he was talking about.

[sschrick]

so just to be clear, if I see a sign like that and I have my HCP and I am carrying, then I can walk right on past it without any worries about legal prosecution?

[Guest bkelm18]

Yes. If they have the old signs, you can carry past them.

[jtmaze]

Here is a related question I have wondered about. If the shop owner posts a sign can an employee keep his loaded gun behind the counter?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Oh Shoot]

so just to be clear, if I see a sign like that and I have my HCP and I am carrying, then I can walk right on past it without any worries about legal prosecution?

Even if you don't have an HCP and are carrying unlawfully, you can't be prosecuted on charge of carrying where booze is sold.

Here is a related question I have wondered about. If the shop owner posts a sign can an employee keep his loaded gun behind the counter?...

Debatable whether a non-HCP employee can have a gun at his work at all, even with consent of owner, but certainly posting a sign of any kind has nothing to do with it.

- OS

[Guest rockytop]

I carry concealed. Most of the time deep concealed in pocket holster and have never been confronted by misinformed or ignorant store owners or clerks. In the event it does happen; I keep a couple of the TGO "NO guns = NO money" business cards in my wallet for handing to them to read while I put my money back in my wallet and leave. I encourage ALL permit holders to do the same.

[TMF]

Not completely sure what statement you're making there,

Completely innocuous. I believe my assumptions were wrong based on your statement regarding your attempt to conceal your interim carry holster. My reaction or overreaction was based on historical data I've seen posted by others on this site that seek confrontation with simple minded folk that are easily spooked by an armed citizenry. I am rolling up my "jump to conclusions" mat as we speak and putting it in the tough box for a day that it can be more appropriately used.

[Fallguy]

I was thinking that as I said that to him, but all I was sure of was that it's not illegal to carry there. Do you happen to know what code or statute says that so I can direct him toward it (over the phone)?

39-17-1305 was the law that prevented carry where alcohol was served for onisit consumption (as said carry for off-site consumption was changed around 2000) Here is the Public Chapter that repelaed 39-17-1305 and also removed the law requiring the posting of the signs...

Public Chapter 1009 (2010)

Other than giving him a copy of this if you'd like....there is much you can do to change someones mind. Some will not change their posistion no matter how is shown to them, short of someone they respect of think is knowledgeable telling them.

[JayC]

Here is a related question I have wondered about. If the shop owner posts a sign can an employee keep his loaded gun behind the counter?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1359 (posting law) only covers HCP holders nobody else. The owner and his employees can still carry under the place of business exception. They don't even need a permit to carry there, and could carry there before the laws were changed concerning bars and liquor stores.

[thefinder808]

39-17-1305 was the law that prevented carry where alcohol was served for onisit consumption (as said carry for off-site consumption was changed around 2000) Here is the Public Chapter that repelaed 39-17-1305 and also removed the law requiring the posting of the signs...

Public Chapter 1009 (2010)

Other than giving him a copy of this if you'd like....there is much you can do to change someones mind. Some will not change their posistion no matter how is shown to them, short of someone they respect of think is knowledgeable telling them.

Thanks for the info, I thought about it today and I think I'm just going to let him keep on believing whatever he wants and just not return. On a positive note I ran by East Side Guns today after work and let Bill Bernstein (really great guy btw) talk me into buying a Sticky IWB holster. At first I was kinda put off by the fact that there's no belt loops, but it really does stay put. It's also really comfy and does a great job of concealing my Glock. Anyone who hasn't tried one on should probably give it a try, they're only $25.

[Oh Shoot]

1359 (posting law) only covers HCP holders nobody else. The owner and his employees can still carry under the place of business exception. They don't even need a permit to carry there, and could carry there before the laws were changed concerning bars and liquor stores.

You say that mighty definitively but I don't know that it is true.

Pretty sure I've seen even lawyers on this forum disagree about just who is exempted under the "person's place of business" verbiage. Is there even an AG opinion?

My point, and the debate, being that a "person's place of business" does not necessarily equate to "one's place of employment".

- OS

Edited November 18, 2011 by OhShoot

[JayC]

Place of business seems to not be defined in tca 39-17-13xx, so I believe it would fall back on the common legal usage of the word:

place of business - an establishment (a factory or an assembly plant or retail store or warehouse etc.) where business is conducted, goods are made or stored or processed or where services are rendered

I think that covers the vast majority of places. It's clear that the legislature intended for 'place of business' to be something other than a persons residence or their premises, since premises would cover all property owned, leased or rented by a person, it's clear that place of the business was something more than the other two cover.

I doubt there is an AG's opinion on the matter because it's such a duhh kinda thing, of course you have the right to possess a firearm at your business for your protection, just like you have a right to posses one in your home. If you're aware of case law that reduces the 'place of business' defense in TCA 39-17-1307, I'm all ears.

Now for my practical example... ever go into a gun store before the HCP law was passed? Notice how all the employees were carrying firearms? How exactly was that legal? They all couldn't be owners, or be reserve deputies.

You say that mighty definitively but I don't know that it is true.

Pretty sure I've seen even lawyers on this forum disagree about just who is exempted under the "person's place of business" verbiage. Is there even an AG opinion?

My point, and the debate, being that a "person's place of business" does not necessarily equate to "one's place of employment".

- OS

[robbiev]

JFYI, the "guns in bars" bill had no effect on carry in places that sell for off-site consumption.

It was already legal to carry in them if not posted; has been since HCPs were first issued, AFAIK.

- OS

Just for reference, it was actually illegal until about 2006 or 2007 (I can't remember exactly) to carry in any place that served OR sold alcohol, so it was illegal to carry in a TN liquor store, or a Kroger for that matter.