Open Carry in TN and laws about showing ID

[JayC]

Wow, that is an old thread you managed to jump into...  but you're giving out bad information...  While I wouldn't recommend wearing a HCP badge, you need to go back and reread TN law concerning badges, none of the HCP badges I've seen violate the law in anyway shape or form by themselves.

 

And keep in mind that 39-16-301 requires that you be engaged in an activity that is ordinarily and customarily an activity established by law as a law enforcement activity... on top of causing another to believe you are a law enforcement officer.

 

So sitting down and eating a burger with a badge on doesn't violate that law...  Walking down the street with one doesn't...  Trying to pull somebody over and arrest them would ;)

 

My understanding that there is only one such arrest in TN involving a carry badge in Knoxville in 2009 and the impersonating charge was dropped.  So while it's a horribly bad idea IMHO to wear one, it doesn't appear as if your warning is based on the law or fact.

 

Do not get one of the tn handgun carry badges and wear it or show it, if it resembles any local, state or federal leo badge. Most do. It is a misdemeanor and can cost 500.00 plus fine and court cost. Check tca code for specifics.

 

[bdkerr]

Actually, your example is exactly what happened (open carry, displaying a badge). The badge looked just like a kpd badge. The officer made the man aware of the code and ask him, as a courtesy request(no written warning or cite), to put it up. The man refused and was then cited. It went to misd court, I was there, and the above fine and court coast were imposed. I know the officer, who is an excellent officer by any standard, and was present during the judgement.

[Fallguy]

39-16-301.  Criminal impersonation. 

 

(a) A person commits criminal impersonation who, with intent to injure or defraud another person:

 

(1) Assumes a false identity;

 

(2) Pretends to be a representative of some person or organization;

 

(3) Pretends to be an officer or employee of the government; or

 

(4) Pretends to have a disability.

 

(b) A person commits criminal impersonation who pretends to be a law enforcement officer for the purpose of:

 

(1) Engaging in an activity that is ordinarily and customarily an activity established by law as a law enforcement activity; and

 

(2) Causing another to believe that the person is a law enforcement officer.

 

(c)  (1) Criminal impersonation under subsection (a) is a Class B misdemeanor. However, if the criminal impersonation was committed to falsely obtain a driver license or photo identification license, the maximum fine of five hundred dollars ($500) shall be imposed.

 

(2) Criminal impersonation under subsection (b) is a Class A misdemeanor.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Granted that "perhaps" OCing with a badge "might" meet 39-16-301(b)(1) but to be convicted you have to also do something that could be covered under 39-16-301(b)(2)

 

So what else did he do beside just OCing and having the badge?
 

Edited September 10, 2013 by Fallguy

[JayC]

I went back and did another Lexus/Nexus search I can't find any record of a conviction...  not saying it didn't happen but I can't find a record.

 

I can't imagine a Judge would rule that the opening carrying of a gun meets b1, a lot of people wear badges and carry guns who aren't police officers including armed private security and they aren't exempt from this law the best I can tell.

[Guest Lowbuster]

I don't know how to put someone's post above mine but concerning the hcp badge. Do not print off a picture and tape it. I think you should tattoo it somewhere highly visible. If it works then keep us informed and remember no pics not true






Just kidding

[Fallguy]

I don't know how to put someone's post above mine but concerning the hcp badge. Do not print off a picture and tape it. I think you should tattoo it somewhere highly visible. If it works then keep us informed and remember no pics not true






Just kidding

 

Quote button in lower right corner of post

[JohnC]

I've given it a lot of thought and I see absolutely no reason to open carry.

No offense to anyone else here because this is totally my personal opinion.

OC'ing puts you at a disadvantage in a self defense scenario because if a thug sees you're armed and you don't notice him, he could get the jump on you.

Worse, you might be targeted just because said thug wants to steal your gun.

I don't mind anyone owning or carrying a gun. If you conceal and it accidentally comes out, no problem.

But OC'ing just seems like a really bad idea for all intended purposes of having a permit.

I believe the law of being able to open carry is just there to protect us incase it accidentally slips in to view. I hope they always keep this protection in place because it is hard to totally conceal a gun at all times when moving around and reaching for stuff at the store. :up:

:2cents:

[tnhawk]

..... You may wind up having a pleasant conversation and making a friend. If you're a jackass and put up a fight over showing some ID, what is there to possibly gain?

If you get stupid over showing an ID to an officer, you might still make a friend - and your cell mate probably won't ask for a ID.

 

While in a Jackson restaurant recently, I was asked for an ID when requesting a menu. As I was producing it, I asked if they planned to give me a senior or military discount.  I probably would not been asked, if I had sat at a table instead of at the bar, but would have had slower service.

Edited October 14, 2013 by tnhawk

[Oh Shoot]

If you get stupid over showing an ID to an officer, you might still make a friend - and your cell mate probably won't ask for a ID.

 

There's no actual penalty specified for refusing to show your permit when asked in 39-17-1351.  I guess it's failure to obey lawful order or something covered elsewhere?

 

- OS

Edited October 14, 2013 by Oh Shoot

[DaveTN]

There's no actual penalty specified for refusing to show your permit when asked in 39-17-1351.  I guess it's failure to obey lawful order or something covered elsewhere?

 

- OS

Just a guess also, but I would think if you refuse to show it; it’s as if you don’t have it. You might make a valid argument in your weapons charge trial, but I doubt it would fly in your HCP revocation hearing.

[JayC]

Any violation of 1351 can lead to TDOS revoking your permit for life.  Under the same section of the law they used to get Yeager and Voldemort.

 

You'd be correct the police likely couldn't do anything about it....  but if they complained past experience says TDOS would.

 

Also remember you only must display your permit, you're not required to give custody of the permit to any police officer, nor can they take your permit from your possession under state law.

 

There's no actual penalty specified for refusing to show your permit when asked in 39-17-1351.  I guess it's failure to obey lawful order or something covered elsewhere?

 

- OS

Edited October 14, 2013 by JayC

[Guest RebelCowboySnB]

Interesting read. Seems to be an old thread but I thought I would put in my thoughts as an outsider looking in.

 

I an not a law expert but as I undrstand it, carry is a crime in Tn. If you are seen with a gun in Tn you can be charged with a crime. Having a permit is a defence to that crime. If I am in Tn an asked for my permit I can show it an should or I can refuse. Odds are that he wont if I show but he can charge me with the crime ether way. The cop can take my permit an let me go but he can also charge me an let me show it to a judge. This is my understanding of Tn law as a outsider. Not that I even know of any case of this happening.

 

Here in Ga, carry is only 1 element of a crime. The second element is not having a permit. The cop has to have RAS that both elements have been met to detain you an ask. Sense he has no way of knowing if you have a permit or not they almost never ask. My opinion, if you are you can assume you allread are going to take a ride. He has something, or he is planning to run all over your rights. "am I being detained," lawyer up an shut up.

 

I open carry everwhere that is alloud an have never been stopped an asked for my permit. That being said, I open carry in Tn an Al almost as much as Ga an have never been stopped an asked in those states ether. Its a non issue.

[Oh Shoot]

Any violation of 1351 can lead to TDOS revoking your permit for life.  Under the same section of the law they used to get Yeager and Voldemort.

 

Yep, true that. Really, about any firearm related offense can, just takes a stink raised to TNDOS.

 

Note that neither Yeager or Kwik violated anything in 1351, but rather got smacked under the catchall "Poses a material likelihood of risk of harm to the public" in 1352.

 

- OS

[Spiffy]

You could always get one of these
:hiding:

 

 

I kinda do want one for these just for a novelty in my "junk drawer" I think it's because its specif to TN and not some crappy generic CCW badge. I'd take the ragging over that to just hang in my safe.. El Oh El.

[JayC]

I agree neither violated state law in anyway shape or form, but the same section of the law used to revoke their permits was can be used to revoke any permit holder that has violated 1351 in their opinion...  

 

Another reason why 39-17-1352a should be done away with or heavily modified.  All it takes is TNDOS to say you've violated some part of 39-17-1351-1360 and they can revoke your permit for life with no hearing, and no standard of proof required.  And if they get it wrong, nothing happens.

 

Yep, true that. Really, about any firearm related offense can, just takes a stink raised to TNDOS.

 

Note that neither Yeager or Kwik violated anything in 1351, but rather got smacked under the catchall "Poses a material likelihood of risk of harm to the public" in 1352.

 

- OS

 

[jcluff]

I don't see what anyone would gain in antagonizing an LEO over something as simple as a request for ID. If you aren't doing anything wrong, what's lost besides a few minutes of your time? You may wind up having a pleasant conversation and making a friend. If you're a jackass and put up a fight over showing some ID, what is there to possibly gain?

Show me your papers...

Unless you have giving reasonable cause to be questioned, an officer shouldn't even be asking. In TN, as others have stated, OC is illegal and the permit is the defense. Downside is, if you are CC, even of the officer has no reasonable suspicion, if he asks, and you have an HCP, based on the way the statute reads, you have to show him it. A citizen without an HCP and not carrying would not have to show ID, unless the officer has a reasonable suspicion.


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