Open Carry in TN and laws about showing ID

[Timestepper]

If a cop pulls you over for a traffic violation and then asks you if he can search your car, even though there is no probable cause, are you going to consent to a search? After all, he just wants to make sure you're legal, right?

Apples and oranges. While I agree with your earlier statement that a right not exercised is a right lost, I also believe that I'm not so freakin' important that I can't take the time to dig some I.D. out of my wallet and show it to him. What's it take, a whole half a minute?

Next you'll be arguing that bars don't have the right to request to see I.D. before serving someone alcohol. When I was in my 20's I was offended every time I got carded. When I was in my 30's, I was incredulous. In my 40's, I was amused. Now that I'm in my 50's, I'm flattered.

[Fallguy]

Apples and oranges. While I agree with your earlier statement that a right not exercised is a right lost, I also believe that I'm not so freakin' important that I can't take the time to dig some I.D. out of my wallet and show it to him. What's it take, a whole half a minute?

Next you'll be arguing that bars don't have the right to request to see I.D. before serving someone alcohol. When I was in my 20's I was offended every time I got carded. When I was in my 30's, I was incredulous. In my 40's, I was amused. Now that I'm in my 50's, I'm flattered.

Talk about apples and oranges....

Anyone who sells and/or serves alcohol has the right to refuse to service if they choose. If a condition of them serving me is for me showing ID...well the ball is in my court. But is my choice.

[Timestepper]

So the ONLY way to be courteous is to say yes? Your words, not mine. Depends upon the circumstances. If a stranger comes to your house and ask to come in and use the bathroom, the courteous thing to do would be to let him come in right? Or can't you also say, "Sir, I'd rather not. I don't know you and I just don't let strangers into my home." I don't see where that is being rude. What I would say (provided they could actually find my house to begin with) is, "Sure, there's an outhouse out back. I just put fresh lime, gojo and anal floss in there this afternoon - I'll turn the yard light on for you."

I am not trying to hinder a LEO trying to do their job. But them asking to search my car without a reason, is not them doing their job in my opinion. Again...I'm not saying I would always say no...in all honesty, if any request is reasonable, I probably will cooperate. I'm just saying I don't see how it is being mean, argumentative, difficult etc... if you don't. I might be wrong, but I didn't think this thread was about having your car (or home) searched, but just showing some I.D. Apples and oranges.

I'm not sure how someone can be legally parked yet blocking me in, unless I am illegally parked. If as screwy as some engineers are (j/k) I don't think any would design a parking lot that would cause cars to trap each other in when properly parked. If I am illegally parked, the person may be nice and move, but if they don't, there isn't much I can do. Just like if a LEO ask to search my home and doesn't have a warrant or PC and I say no...there isn't much he can do. Sorry, I was probably using a trucking metaphor - I know of several truck stops where it is possible (though not courteous) to be legally parked and still block someone - but you're deliberately obfuscating the point, which has nothing to do with parking, but rather with exercising a little courtesy.

My brother is LEO..yes...really and his wife too...I rode with him one night. There were two ladies at an apartment complex that the manager didn't want there. When we got there, they were outside their car and the manager was there. After it was determined they didn't have any business to be there...they were told to leave. But before that my brother asked several times if he could search their car. Guess he thought something may be in there...I don't know. But they kept asking why and/or trying to avoid the question, but in the end they never said yes. So...they went on their way. When he came back to the car...I don't recall him saying anything like, "Them rude women!! they didn't let me search their car" or "I can't believe how disrespectful they were" etc... He pretty much didn't say anything about it and we went on.

Now had the yelled and screamed, called him names etc.... it may have been different, as far as his attitude at least. But while a bit "suspicious" I guess, they were calm and polite as was he.

To me one said thing is...I'm sure they felt they couldn't just flat out say No...or were at least scared to. Had they said that, he may not have kept asking. Even telemarketers are required to get 3 "no's" before they're allowed to give up.

Even if someone is going to say Yes, they should know and not be scared to say No, if they want to. True, but this isn't about being scared to say no, but rather being courteous enough to just say yes and get it over with.

I've dealt with hundreds of LEO's over the years while driving a truck through all 48 states and Canada. In almost every case, I was better served by just respectfully complying with the requests that have been made upon me, rather than respectfully declining to consent to said request. If you choose not to do so, by all means feel free to exercise your rights. While you're exercising them, I'll be on my way and we'll both be happy.

[daddyo]

Apples and oranges. While I agree with your earlier statement that a right not exercised is a right lost, I also believe that I'm not so freakin' important that I can't take the time to dig some I.D. out of my wallet and show it to him. What's it take, a whole half a minute?

Next you'll be arguing that bars don't have the right to request to see I.D. before serving someone alcohol. When I was in my 20's I was offended every time I got carded. When I was in my 30's, I was incredulous. In my 40's, I was amused. Now that I'm in my 50's, I'm flattered.

Actually, it's the same thing. But if you want to give up your constitutional rights, there are plenty of public officials who will gladly oblige you. Not me, but be my guest.

[Timestepper]

Talk about apples and oranges....

Anyone who sells and/or serves alcohol has the right to refuse to service if they choose. If a condition of them serving me is for me showing ID...well the ball is in my court. But is my choice.

Indeed. If life hands you lemons, you have the choice to make lemonade. If life hands me lemons, I'm going to choose to find someone who's life handed them vodka and have a party.

[Fallguy]

Your words, not mine. Depends upon the circumstances.

Yes...my words used to ask a question. You seemed to have answer though...To rephrase it appears you are saying "No" it is not the only way to be courteous. Which is good to hear.

What I would say (provided they could actually find my house to begin with) is, "Sure, there's an outhouse out back. I just put fresh lime, gojo and anal floss in there this afternoon - I'll turn the yard light on for you."

You're a better man than me sir...lol

I might be wrong, but I didn't think this thread was about having your car (or home) searched, but just showing some I.D. Apples and oranges.

Yes, that is how it started. But searches and rights in general have also been discussed and I thought some of your post had addressed them as well. If not then none of my post about them were addressed at you.

Even telemarketers are required to get 3 "no's" before they're allowed to give up.

Hmmmm I don't remember...but I think he did get more than that. But as I said...they never actually said No.

True, but this isn't about being scared to say no, but rather being courteous enough to just say yes and get it over with.

Sorry...but "just say yes and get it over with" is too much like letting someone asking to beat the crap of you and hopping they just get it over with.

I've dealt with hundreds of LEO's over the years while driving a truck through all 48 states and Canada. In almost every case, I was better served by just respectfully complying with the requests that have been made upon me, rather than respectfully declining to consent to said request. If you choose not to do so, by all means feel free to exercise your rights. While you're exercising them, I'll be on my way and we'll both be happy.

Ummm...the way I see it...If I say No and leave...and you say Yes and they take time to search your vehicle or what ever other reques they've made...I think I'll be the one on the way.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Fallguy

[Fallguy]

Indeed. If life hands you lemons, you have the choice to make lemonade. If life hands me lemons, I'm going to choose to find someone who's life handed them vodka and have a party.

Hmmmm...sounds good...but I may just stick with my beer. But cheers sir...

[Timestepper]

Hmmmm...sounds good...but I may just stick with my beer. But cheers sir...

I hate to beat a dead horse, but again, you missed my point. I like beer, but in this metaphor it is only an option if life gave you hops and barley. Cheers nonetheless.

As to the rest of it, I suppose that we'll have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. There are those here who seem to see being asked for (and producing) I.D. as a most egregious sin which will inevitably lead to even more egregious sins. I don't see it as anything more than a temporary inconvenience at worst and the chance to make someone's day a little easier at best.

BTW, my mother lives in Parsons, Kansas.

...TS....

[Fallguy]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but again, you missed my point. I like beer, but in this metaphor it is only an option if life gave you hops and barley. Cheers nonetheless.

As to the rest of it, I suppose that we'll have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. There are those here who seem to see being asked for (and producing) I.D. as a most egregious sin which will inevitably lead to even more egregious sins. I don't see it as anything more than a temporary inconvenience at worst and the chance to make someone's day a little easier at best.

BTW, my mother lives in Parsons, Kansas.

...TS....

I understood what you meant about trying to make the best of the situation.

Yes...I agree to disagree.

[Timestepper]

I understood what you meant about trying to make the best of the situation.

Indeed. And we each have different ways of doing that.

[Makiaveli]

I am NOT talking about showing your HCP.

I know the thread has got a bit long, but in Post 6 I said you must show you HCP upon demand of a LEO. In Post 37 I went so far to say, even if you were on your own property and asked to show a HCP you have to if you have one.

I am talking about standing on the sidewalk (unarmed) minding my own business and being asked for ID. If there is a lawful reason he needs to see it..fine I have no problem. (I do admit he may have one that I'm not aware of and he may choose not to tell me). Or if they knock on my door at 9:00pm and want to search my house for no apparent reason...I will say no. If they have a good reason, they can get a judge to issue a warrant. I don't have anything illegal (that I know of at least) in my home, but that doesn't mean I want anyone searching through it. If I was a thug and had something illegal, despite what you see on TV, most of the times it isn't going to make a difference if you let them search and/or tell them where it is or if you make them get a warrant.

Since there is no right to carry in TN (as another member always says, and I agree) if I am armed I will always show my HCP upon request without any problem.

Sorry I did miss that distinction. You are of course correct on the HCP.

I suppose we should clarify the situation we are talking about. If an officers stops you, then you have no choice. If he instead engages you in a voluntary conversation, then yes you have a choice. The difference is subtle and depends on the wording the ofc. uses. If he tells you to stop, stay where you are, or come here etc then you have to obey. If he just simply asks if you have ID on you or asks if he can see it, then you can choose how to answer.

I still stand by my point that he is either just doing his job or being a jerk. Either way it will be over sooner if you go along. If you have nothing better to do, then by all means ask questions etc.

I should say I am prejudiced on their side since until breaking a knee and ruining the other one, I was about to graduate with my Criminal Justice degree and accept one of the job offers I had on the table. Also, my current job is IT for a local PD.

[BigK]

Rhetorical question...What's the alternative to agreeing to disagree? Arguing until someone gives up? LOL

This has been an interesting conversation. I've enjoyed the thread.

Edited November 12, 2011 by BigK

[Makiaveli]

Rhetorical question...What's the alternative to agreeing to disagree? Arguing until someone gives up? LOL

Based on my experiences on the Intarwebz, yes.

FTR, I don't mean to come across as argumentative, it's just that I'm a socially inept geek at heart and unfortunately that comes across real well in text format.

[BigK]

FTR, I don't mean to come across as argumentative, it's just that I'm a socially inept geek at heart and unfortunately that comes across real well in text format.

I definitely didn't mean to imply anyone was argumentative at all. I've just always like that phrase ("agree to disagree"), because it's kind of weird when you think about it. Maybe that's just the socially inept geek in me too, LOL.

BTW...I'm an IT guy too; Database Admin, to be exact. What kind of IT work do you do?

[Timestepper]

I've just always like that phrase ("agree to disagree"), because it's kind of weird when you think about it. Maybe that's just the socially inept geek in me too, LOL.

I've heard that phrase defined two ways: 1. It's obvious we're at loggerheads and I respect you too much to press the point any further at the risk of damaging our friendship. & The other definition probably remains better left un-typed.

Rhetorical question...What's the alternative to agreeing to disagree?

Not so rhetorical answer: The alternative is that one party or other concedes the point, usually because he/she determines to his/her own satisfaction that their own viewpoint is flawed either due to perspective or lack of facts.

...TS...

Edited November 12, 2011 by Timestepper

[Fallguy]

Sorry I did miss that distinction. You are of course correct on the HCP.

I suppose we should clarify the situation we are talking about. If an officers stops you, then you have no choice. If he instead engages you in a voluntary conversation, then yes you have a choice. The difference is subtle and depends on the wording the ofc. uses. If he tells you to stop, stay where you are, or come here etc then you have to obey. If he just simply asks if you have ID on you or asks if he can see it, then you can choose how to answer.

I still stand by my point that he is either just doing his job or being a jerk. Either way it will be over sooner if you go along. If you have nothing better to do, then by all means ask questions etc.

I should say I am prejudiced on their side since until breaking a knee and ruining the other one, I was about to graduate with my Criminal Justice degree and accept one of the job offers I had on the table. Also, my current job is IT for a local PD.

Yes, if he has "seized" you and you are not free to leave, then you would have to produce ID. Of course he has to have some reason to do this.

I agree on either doing his job or being a jerk. Guess I'm just not as tolerant of jerks...lol

Sorry to hear about your knee. Guess it's not just jocks that an injury can change their career choice, huh? Hope that was taken in the spirit intended.

[Fallguy]

Based on my experiences on the Intarwebz, yes.

FTR, I don't mean to come across as argumentative, it's just that I'm a socially inept geek at heart and unfortunately that comes across real well in text format.

I enjoy a good debate and discussion....even more so when it stays that way...lol

I feel like that is what I've participated in here.

[Fallguy]

I've heard that phrase defined two ways: 1. It's obvious we're at loggerheads and I respect you too much to press the point any further at the risk of damaging our friendship. & The other definition probably remains better left un-typed.

For me it was the first way. I have had people I consider good friends that we have had about as far different opinions on a subject as two people can have. Once you feel you have presented all of your position, answered all points of the other position and the other person has done the same and no one feels different...no reason to keep going in circles.

Not so rhetorical answer: The alternative is that one party or other concedes the point, usually because he/she determines to his/her own satisfaction that their own viewpoint is flawed either due to perspective or lack of facts.

...TS...

Yep....more than once I have changed my position on something because I learned things I didn't know before or was presented with a view I haven't thought of before.

[Timestepper]

Yes...my words used to ask a question. You seemed to have answer though...To rephrase it appears you are saying "No" it is not the only way to be courteous. Which is good to hear.

Yes, you are correct. No, I am not saying that saying yes is the only way to be courteous.

You're a better man than me sir...lol

Not better, just have a different approach. By being polite and offering to turn the yard light on, it ensures that they will be under my constant surveillance the entire time they are on my property. Plus, given the reasonably serious gastro-intestinal issues I've been fighting for the past few years, as a Christian, my conscience wouldn't allow me to deny anybody access to the sh*t house.

Yes, that is how it started. But searches and rights in general have also been discussed and I thought some of your post had addressed them as well. If not then none of my post about them were addressed at you.

I was about to agree to and concede your point until I read your last statement in this particular post, which negates this particular comment since you completely disregard my earlier point as to the nature of the thread.

Hmmmm I don't remember...but I think he did get more than that. But as I said...they never actually said No.

But they also never actually said yes, either. Correct? Our language is wonderful - it gives us so many different ways to communicate our intentions or lack thereof.

Sorry...but "just say yes and get it over with" is too much like letting someone asking to beat the crap of you and hopping they just get it over with.

Not at all. By asking to see your I.D., the officer is not asking if he/she may personally commit a physical assault upon you. On the other hand, if you, Fallguy, consider a simple request for I.D. as a personal physical assault, then by all means feel free to resist in any manner you deem necessary.

Ummm...the way I see it...If I say No and leave...and you say Yes and they take time to search your vehicle or what ever other reques they've made...I think I'll be the one on the way.

Again, I was never talking about vehicle, personal, home, etc... searches. Those are your words. To clarify: Using your own words from elsewhere in this thread: (Paraphrasing) "If I'm standing on a sidewalk and engaged in a casual conversation with a LEO and he suddenly asks to see my I.D...."

Then I (Timestepper) probably will question him as to what grounds before I surrender said I.D. and/or "walk away" without complying to the request. And for the same reason that I wouldn't suddenly agree to confess to a Catholic Priest when all we were doing initially was talking about the weather.

If, on the other hand I'm in any other given situation/interaction with a LEO and my I.D. is requested then I will immediately capitulate. It'll take all of 30 seconds and I'll be on my way much sooner than the person who flat out refuses and potentially gets into the whole "Why, you got something to hide?" "No Officer, I just don't believe you have the right to ask for my I.D. without due cause." scenario. Simply because I don't see it as my job to tell them how to do their job.

Again Fallguy, unless you've completely misunderstood/deliberately misconstrued the point I've been trying to make, then I still agree to disagree. And my apologies for not answering this particular post last night. Between a glitching computer and tired eyes, it just wasn't practical.

...TS...

Edited November 12, 2011 by Timestepper

[daddyo]

No one is talking about resisting here. If the officer demands to see my ID, even though he has no probable cause because I have done nothing wrong and given him NO reason to suspect that I will, then I will comply while stating that he does not have my consent to violate my 4th amendment rights. It's not worth going to jail over, but I will be in touch with the administration as well as my local and state representatives.

[Makiaveli]

I definitely didn't mean to imply anyone was argumentative at all. I've just always like that phrase ("agree to disagree"), because it's kind of weird when you think about it. Maybe that's just the socially inept geek in me too, LOL.

BTW...I'm an IT guy too; Database Admin, to be exact. What kind of IT work do you do?

Well I was hired to babysit the mainframe at a PD, but since 90% of it's work has moved, I now to get spend the majority of my time pretending to be the Hell Desk. I got my degree in Network Admin a month before 9/11 (did I mention I finished the degree while laid off?) so never got any certs and wound up in Property Management.

And I know you didn't mean me specifically, I've just not made the best impression here lately so thought I would toss that out.

@Fallguy I hear ya on not being tolerant of jerks. I think I am just old enough to not want to prove anything, but still young enough to not argue everything that comes along And yea, I get ya. Even IT geeks can do stupid human tricks and wind up fubar'ed

[Guest mds3d]

A couple of thoughts...As it pertains to being asked for my HCP my response is "Yes, sir... Here ya go, sir."As it pertains to a request for an ID. If I am not driving, I am most likely to say no. There is no law that you ever have to produce an ID at the request of an officer (HCP notwithstanding). You are required to identify yourself, but not to have a physical ID.As an example... When not carrying, I am most likely to be stopped by a cop when enjoying my hobby of street photography. For some reason someone almost always thinks I am a pervert or a terrorist and sometimes these people are cops. However, for this exact reason, I don't even carry ID when I am out with my camera. I take a couple of bucks, my phone, and my car keys. I find that this simplifies any interaction with security or police (granted I usually just ignore security if I am still on public property). Is this practical for everyday interactions... well,no. Does it demonstrate my point? Yes. Your ID gives them way more info than they need, and they never have a right to require it with the exception of very specific circumstances.

[Guest 270win]

A handgun carry permit is a defense to prosecution for 'intent to go armed'. Other defenses to prosecution for 'intent to go armed' are incident to hunting, fishing, sport shooting, camping, lawful protection for livestock, and other lawful activity (you don't need a permit to carry a firearm under the second list...just like at your home/business.

Now as far as carrying in public, I 99% conceal. The only time I may openly carry a handgun or long gun is when hunting or going to/from range. It's not worth the hassle to me to be asked to leave businesses when openly carrying or when dealing with clients. My snub works just fine. And no I've never been asked by the law if I am carrying because it is hidden well.

[Timestepper]

A handgun carry permit is a defense to prosecution for 'intent to go armed'. Other defenses to prosecution for 'intent to go armed' are incident to hunting, fishing, sport shooting, camping, lawful protection for livestock, and other lawful activity (you don't need a permit to carry a firearm under the second list...just like at your home/business.

Now as far as carrying in public, I 99% conceal. The only time I may openly carry a handgun or long gun is when hunting or going to/from range. It's not worth the hassle to me to be asked to leave businesses when openly carrying or when dealing with clients. My snub works just fine. And no I've never been asked by the law if I am carrying because it is hidden well.

Great post. I've mentioned elsewhere my intent to largely OC. Looks like this might be good opportunity to further elaborate:

I like guns. I've been around them literally my entire life and am quite comfortable with them. I'm also a cheap b*stard and the vast majority of what I own (guns, camping equipment, garden tools, EVERYTHING) was chosen for its ability to serve multi-purposes/functions. Not sure if its an efficiency thing, or if I just don't like having a bunch of stuff lying around that I might use only once or twice a year.

You see, I have neither the desire, nor the resources to purchase multiple handguns to fit any given scenario, so when I do get around to buying a "modern" (that is to say, non-muzzle loading, non-black powder) handgun, it will be with the idea that said modern handgun will serve as both companion piece to my trusty Savage 24 (.357mag/20ga.) for hunting purposes as well as my "primary carry gun," (not to mention home defense for my lovely and talented wife while I'm on the road). Given that criteria, I've already arbitrarily decided on the S&W 386 XL Hunter in .357mag w/6 inch bbl. In times of colder weather, CC will not be problematic as I generally wear a longer western cut jacket along with my standard "uniform" of boots, jeans and cowboy hat. During warm weather however, CC with the aforementioned weapon will be extremely problematic not only because of it's size, but also because the only time you'll ever see me with the baggy pants or un-tucked shirt requisite to carry the 386 is... well, never.

So that's the deal. If I OC, it's not because I don't recognize the potential benefits of CC, or "feel the need" to OC so much as the fact that I don't own/can't afford multiple handguns and simply choose function over form.

Now, on the other hand, if a fellow TGO member feels sorry for me because I'm too terminally broke to buy a smaller piece for CC purposes and would like to "donate to the cause," in order to more readily facilitate CC on my part, I will happily take anything in .38sp/.357mag off your hands.

...Don...

[bdkerr]

Do not get one of the tn handgun carry badges and wear it or show it, if it resembles any local, state or federal leo badge. Most do. It is a misdemeanor and can cost 500.00 plus fine and court cost. Check tca code for specifics.