Open Carry in TN and laws about showing ID

[JayC]

I don't see what anyone would gain in antagonizing an LEO over something as simple as a request for ID. If you aren't doing anything wrong, what's lost besides a few minutes of your time? You may wind up having a pleasant conversation and making a friend. If you're a jackass and put up a fight over showing some ID, what is there to possibly gain?

Lets assume for a second you're not carrying a firearm... If I'm doing nothing wrong it's none of the officers business who I am and to stop and question me, so I wouldn't show my ID.

Carrying changes all of that because you're required to display the permit on request, and if you don't you risk loosing your permit for life even if you're not violating the law.

[JayC]

Although there is no specific penalty stipulated for NOT doing it.

Failure to obey a lawful order? (do we actually have that in TCA?)

Interfering with a police investigation?

- OS

I think the most likely issue would be loosing your permit for life using the rule that got 'the one who shall not be named'.

[daddyo]

So when an LEO asks if you have any ID, just look 'em in the eye and say, "'Bout what?" (Hey, it works in Arkansas and Alabama...)

No, I would be respectful, and say something like, "Is there a problem, officer? Have I committed a crime?". I would also state that I don't consent to a search under the 4th amendment, which is exactly what asking for ID with no probable cause is. Why do they need to know who I am if I have done nothing wrong?

There are people who see nothing wrong with the TSA patting you down at the airport, either.

If you don't stand up for your constitutional rights, no one else will, either.

Edited November 9, 2011 by DaddyO

[BigK]

Lets assume for a second you're not carrying a firearm... If I'm doing nothing wrong it's none of the officers business who I am and to stop and question me, so I wouldn't show my ID...

I wonder if sometimes they ask for ID for no good reason to buy them enough time to get a better feel for why they got a bad vibe from someone. Like maybe it's an excuse to talk to you to see if something's up.

Either way, I dig cops and believe almost all of them are good guys. They have a tough job and I don't want to make it hard on them. So, if showing my ID when they had no good reason to ask for it can diffuse a situation or settle their curiosity, no harm, no foul.

I can see how others might feel it's harassment or an invasion of their privacy, especially if it happened a lot. Then I'd start asking myself why do I give cops the creeps.

[Guest uzzi]

Gentlemen,

A LEO has no right to ask you for an ID without being able to articulate some sort of reasonable suspicion. That is why the dude in Oregon did not produce his ID because they were questioning him about his Open Carry, which is legal. It is not against the law for a LEO to ASK to see your ID, but that doesn't mean you have to produce it. If he says "I believe you have committed a crime" or if there is a reasonable suspicion then that is different. For example, someone just robbed a store and matches your description and a LEO sees you on the street. You could legally be detained and required to produce ID. But a LEO can not force you legally to produce ID just because you are walking down the street. Fourth amendment!

With an HCP, totally different.

[monkeylizard]

But in TN it is not a Fourth issue with firearms. It is a crime to be armed in public, so a LEO has a valid reason to require an HCP to be produced upon seeing a person with a firearm.

[netmindr]

I believe it would be well within the LEOs right to ask to see your permit if he noticed you CC or OC in TN as neither are allowed without the permit. I would feel better having been asked since I did go to the trouble to get it and know that him asking could at some point deter or even prevent a crime by someone who does not have a permit and has ill intentions.

As for states where CC and/or OC is legal without a permit, I would think that they really don't have a right to ask about it unless they have pretty good evidence that you are either up to no good, making a show of force or do not have the right to own or carry a firearm.

[robbiev]

You could always get one of these

:hiding:

This is really cool. Do you think it would be a good idea if I just printed this picture out and wore it taped to my chest?

[Oh Shoot]

Yea, I will have to find it or maybe it changed but I seem to remember if a HCP holder refused to show their HCP they were to be suspended for a certain period of time from the TDOS....

If it were ever so, it's not so now.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

This is really cool. Do you think it would be a good idea if I just printed this picture out and wore it taped to my chest?

Yes, absolutely, everyone would be impressed with your frugality in these economically stressed times while still appreciating the announcement of your legally armed status.

- OS

[Guest bluecanary25]

Yes you have to show it if requested.

Apparently this applies anywhere also. So if you were carrying on your own land & a cop happened to stroll by & asked to see your HCP you would legally have to do so. Not saying that thats likely to happen tho.....

My understanding of the handgun laws is that a permit is NOT required on/in YOUR property. I am not referring to rental property or your vehicle on a public road. But in your house, in your yard or in your treehouse - just don't step off your property without a permit.

If I am wrong (and da BOSS is swift to point out whenever I am in error), please share information.

[Fallguy]

My understanding of the handgun laws is that a permit is NOT required on/in YOUR property. I am not referring to rental property or your vehicle on a public road. But in your house, in your yard or in your treehouse - just don't step off your property without a permit.

If I am wrong (and da BOSS is swift to point out whenever I am in error), please share information.

You are correct that in those places you do not need a permit. But...the law that says you must show your permit upon demand of a LEO doesn't make an exception for where you are.

This was discussed in a thread where a home owner held a robber at gun point until the police arrived at her home, when they did arrive and secured the guy one officer asked her if she had HCP and asked to see it. Did she need one? No But he asked.

Odds are you wouldn't be asked on your own property, but if you are, looks like you have to show it if you have it. If you don't have one...well guess that is good too.

[Guest WyattEarp]

There's a few threads about this I'm pretty sure

X2. Search function ftw.

[GhstFace38]

I've been an LEO 5 years now and I've only dealt with one person who was carrying openly. I asked for his HCP, he provided it and we were good to go. The only reason he drew suspicion is that he was standing at the counter of a diner, leaned over to the left with his S&W Sigma hanging off his right side. He was wearing workout pants and using a Fobus holster. Needless to say the combo was damn near falling out of his pants.

I have no legal problem with OC but if you're going to do it at least handle it properly. It was obvious this fellow was doing it for the wrong reasons AND was doing it improperly... in my eyes.

[thefinder808]

Speaking of Oregon...I was looking at the usacarry site's info on Oregon's Concealed Carry Permit and I noticed it said that you couldn't have been found guilty of a misdemeanor ever. That seems pretty harsh to me...

[Fallguy]

Speaking of Oregon...I was looking at the usacarry site's info on Oregon's Concealed Carry Permit and I noticed it said that you couldn't have been found guilty of a misdemeanor ever. That seems pretty harsh to me...

From what I read it's just within the last 4 years.

From ORS 166.291

I hereby declare as follows: I am a citizen of the United States or a legal resident alien who can document continuous residency in the county for at least six months and have declared in writing to the United States Citizenship and Immigration Services my intention to become a citizen and can present proof of the written declaration to the sheriff at the time of this application. I am at least 21 years of age. I have been discharged from the jurisdiction of the juvenile court for more than four years if, while a minor, I was found to be within the jurisdiction of the juvenile court for having committed an act that, if committed by an adult, would constitute a felony or a misdemeanor involving violence, as defined in ORS 166.470. I have never been convicted of a felony or found guilty, except for insanity under ORS 161.295, of a felony in the State of Oregon or elsewhere. I have not, within the last four years, been convicted of a misdemeanor or found guilty, except for insanity under ORS 161.295, of a misdemeanor. Except as provided in ORS 166.291 (1)(L), I have not been convicted of an offense involving controlled substances or completed a court-supervised drug diversion program. There are no outstanding warrants for my arrest and I am not free on any form of pretrial release. I have not been committed to the Oregon Health Authority under ORS 426.130, nor have I been found mentally ill and presently subject to an order prohibiting me from purchasing or possessing a firearm because of mental illness. If any of the previous conditions do apply to me, I have been granted relief or wish to petition for relief from the disability under ORS 166.274 or 166.293 or 18 U.S.C. 925© or have had the records expunged. I am not subject to a citation issued under ORS 163.735 or an order issued under ORS 30.866, 107.700 to 107.735 or 163.738. I have never received a dishonorable discharge from the Armed Forces of the United States. I am not required to register as a sex offender in any state. I understand I will be fingerprinted and photographed.

http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/166.html

[Timestepper]

I've been an LEO 5 years now and I've only dealt with one person who was carrying openly. I asked for his HCP, he provided it and we were good to go. The only reason he drew suspicion is that he was standing at the counter of a diner, leaned over to the left with his S&W Sigma hanging off his right side. He was wearing workout pants and using a Fobus holster. Needless to say the combo was damn near falling out of his pants.

I have no legal problem with OC but if you're going to do it at least handle it properly. It was obvious this fellow was doing it for the wrong reasons AND was doing it improperly... in my eyes.

Excellent point. I think too many people <everywhere> carry for the wrong reasons. Some carry because they want to prove what a tough guy they are. Others because they're scared and they think if they get a gun and a permit to carry it they won't be scared anymore, when - in reality - what they are is still scared, only now they're armed.

Personally, I learned a long time ago that I don't have to prove a damn thing to anybody... and I wasn't scared before I ever had a gun.

As I've mentioned elsewhere in these forums, I'm a truck driver. I've never carried a gun in the truck and I've gone into some pretty rough and seedy areas in the past 23 years and never had any problems that I couldn't handle. Maybe it's because of the way I comport myself, maybe it's because I'm so ugly and look so terminally broke that would-be robbers don't feel I'd be worth their time or maybe it's because I'm just too damn dumb to be scared. The reason doesn't matter so much as the fact that that's just the way it is. I don't plan on going anywhere with a gun that I wouldn't go without a gun, I just plan on going there legally. And since my home state of Kansas is OC unless you first obtain a CC permit (and I OC'd in Kansas for 25 years before I moved to East Tennessee), OC is what I'm most comfortable with.

And I personally don't give two hoots in hell if a LEO has the lawful right to ask for my I.D., D.L. and/or HCP without first giving me a valid reason for asking - I'm going to show it to them. I might ask "Why?" afterwords, but for right now, I'm going to smile and say, "Sure, Officer. It's in my wallet, let me dig it out." Because it is indeed true that you can catch a helluva' lot more bees with honey than you can with vinegar.

...TS...

[Makiaveli]

And I personally don't give two hoots in hell if a LEO has the lawful right to ask for my I.D., D.L. and/or HCP without first giving me a valid reason for asking - I'm going to show it to them. I might ask "Why?" afterwords, but for right now, I'm going to smile and say, "Sure, Officer. It's in my wallet, let me dig it out." Because it is indeed true that you can catch a helluva' lot more bees with honey than you can with vinegar.

...TS...

This. Because if the cop is looking to make trouble for you, giving him grief won't help you out. If he is just trying to catch a bad guy with a gun....that's a good thing right? So why would you want to give him grief?

In other words, just don't see the point in giving a cop grief for asking a simple question.

[daddyo]

Failing to understand how exercising one's constitutional rights is "giving a cop grief".

A right not exercised is a right lost.

[Fallguy]

I'm all for obeying any lawful command/order from a LEO. I'm also not for giving them any grief, or being disrespectful.

However, if they make a request of me and I don't have a lawful reason to comply and choose not to (not saying that is what I would always do, just depends), I'm not sure how that is giving anyone grief.

[Makiaveli]

I'm all for obeying any lawful command/order from a LEO. I'm also not for giving them any grief, or being disrespectful.

However, if they make a request of me and I don't have a lawful reason to comply and choose not to (not saying that is what I would always do, just depends), I'm not sure how that is giving anyone grief.

My point is that realistically he is only asking for it for one of two reasons. He either legitimately wants to make sure you are legal and arrest you if you are not, or he is being a jerk and on a power trip.

In the first case, unless you are going to ask "Can I leave?" and do so when he says yes, then why not just comply? Continuing a voluntary encounter by refusing to show your permit is giving grief in my opinion. What does it gain?

In the second case, he is in fact being a jackbooted thug trying to deny you your Constitutional rights. Do you really want a situation to arise where you get the fun of filing a lawsuit? Best case is you get to cause a a-hole cop some hassle and then walk away. Again, what is the gain here since you aren't going to change his mind and it isn't a case of him single handedly denying all of us of our rights.

I guess my overall point is pick your battles. Why fight with a good cop and why waste time on a bad one unless you really want to push it all the way? The bad ones cover their tracks and the good ones get time off because some idiot called and said a cop gave them a dirty look as he drove by and they happened to be on that side of town when it happened.

[daddyo]

If a cop pulls you over for a traffic violation and then asks you if he can search your car, even though there is no probable cause, are you going to consent to a search? After all, he just wants to make sure you're legal, right?

[Fallguy]

My point is that realistically he is only asking for it for one of two reasons. He either legitimately wants to make sure you are legal and arrest you if you are not, or he is being a jerk and on a power trip.

In the first case, unless you are going to ask "Can I leave?" and do so when he says yes, then why not just comply? Continuing a voluntary encounter by refusing to show your permit is giving grief in my opinion. What does it gain?

In the second case, he is in fact being a jackbooted thug trying to deny you your Constitutional rights. Do you really want a situation to arise where you get the fun of filing a lawsuit? Best case is you get to cause a a-hole cop some hassle and then walk away. Again, what is the gain here since you aren't going to change his mind and it isn't a case of him single handedly denying all of us of our rights.

I guess my overall point is pick your battles. Why fight with a good cop and why waste time on a bad one unless you really want to push it all the way? The bad ones cover their tracks and the good ones get time off because some idiot called and said a cop gave them a dirty look as he drove by and they happened to be on that side of town when it happened.

I am NOT talking about showing your HCP.

I know the thread has got a bit long, but in Post 6 I said you must show you HCP upon demand of a LEO. In Post 37 I went so far to say, even if you were on your own property and asked to show a HCP you have to if you have one.

I am talking about standing on the sidewalk (unarmed) minding my own business and being asked for ID. If there is a lawful reason he needs to see it..fine I have no problem. (I do admit he may have one that I'm not aware of and he may choose not to tell me). Or if they knock on my door at 9:00pm and want to search my house for no apparent reason...I will say no. If they have a good reason, they can get a judge to issue a warrant. I don't have anything illegal (that I know of at least) in my home, but that doesn't mean I want anyone searching through it. If I was a thug and had something illegal, despite what you see on TV, most of the times it isn't going to make a difference if you let them search and/or tell them where it is or if you make them get a warrant.

Since there is no right to carry in TN (as another member always says, and I agree) if I am armed I will always show my HCP upon request without any problem.

[Timestepper]

It's called common courtesy. LEO's have a job to do and we all want them to do it to the best of their ability without screwing up... EVER. But if an officer has had a tough day and inadvertently & temporarily forgets to mentally enumerate every single right of every single individual and makes a simple request in the process of doing his/her job to the best of his/her ability, who's to profit by telling them how to do their job and reminding them of what rights you have?

True, you have the right to respectfully refuse to obey an unlawful request, but come on - is it really that big of a freakin' deal?

I'm all for obeying any lawful command/order from a LEO. I'm also not for giving them any grief, or being disrespectful.

However, if they make a request of me and I don't have a lawful reason to comply and choose not to (not saying that is what I would always do, just depends), I'm not sure how that is giving anyone grief.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot: You're in a hurry and you go out to find that someone has inadvertently parked you in. Your kid needs new shoes or you just found out that your wife is having an affair with mailman and you need to find a condolence card for him, or maybe you're late for something really important, like a round of golf or getting your chest waxed. Whatever it is , you discover that you've been blocked in. Now, whoever blocked you is legally parked, but you still can't get your car out and you really need to hit the road in a big, big hurry. So you find the inadvertent transgressor and politely request that they move their car. Most normal folks would willingly oblige, BUT you find, in this instance, that the aforementioned individual has decided to exercise their right NOT to move a legally parked automobile just so you can have a better day. What kind of syllables are you going to be uttering under your breath while you're waiting for them to get around to leaving on their own?

Common courtesy. We have the right to respectfully refuse to comply with an unlawful request from a LEO. But we also have the ability to temporarily choose not to exercise that right in order to make someone's day go just a little smoother. And all it takes is a smile and a "Sure Officer! It's in my wallet, let me dig it out."

...TS...

[Fallguy]

It's called common courtesy. LEO's have a job to do and we all want them to do it to the best of their ability without screwing up... EVER. But if an officer has had a tough day and inadvertently & temporarily forgets to mentally enumerate every single right of every single individual and makes a simple request in the process of doing his/her job to the best of his/her ability, who's to profit by telling them how to do their job and reminding them of what rights you have?

True, you have the right to respectfully refuse to obey an unlawful request, but come on - is it really that big of a freakin' deal??

So the ONLY way to be courteous is to say yes? If a stranger comes to your house and ask to come in and use the bathroom, the courteous thing to do would be to let him come in right? Or can't you also say, "Sir, I'd rather not. I don't know you and I just don't let strangers into my home." I don't see where that is being rude.

I am not trying to hinder a LEO trying to do their job. But them asking to search my car without a reason, is not them doing their job in my opinion. Again...I'm not saying I would always say no...in all honesty, if any request is reasonable, I probably will cooperate. I'm just saying I don't see how it is being mean, argumentative, difficult etc... if you don't.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot: You're in a hurry and you go out to find that someone has inadvertently parked you in. Your kid needs new shoes or you just found out that your wife is having an affair with mailman and you need to find a condolence card for him, or maybe you're late for something really important, like a round of golf or getting your chest waxed. Whatever it is , you discover that you've been blocked in. Now, whoever blocked you is legally parked, but you still can't get your car out and you really need to hit the road in a big, big hurry. So you find the inadvertent transgressor and politely request that they move their car. Most normal folks would willingly oblige, BUT you find, in this instance, that the aforementioned individual has decided to exercise their right NOT to move a legally parked automobile just so you can have a better day. What kind of syllables are you going to be uttering under your breath while you're waiting for them to get around to leaving on their own?

Common courtesy. We have the right to respectfully refuse to comply with an unlawful request from a LEO. But we also have the ability to temporarily choose not to exercise that right in order to make someone's day go just a little smoother. And all it takes is a smile and a "Sure Officer! It's in my wallet, let me dig it out."

...TS...

I'm not sure how someone can be legally parked yet blocking me in, unless I am illegally parked. If as screwy as some engineers are (j/k) I don't think any would design a parking lot that would cause cars to trap each other in when properly parked. If I am illegally parked, the person may be nice and move, but if they don't, there isn't much I can do. Just like if a LEO ask to search my home and doesn't have a warrant or PC and I say no...there isn't much he can do.

My brother is LEO..yes...really and his wife too...I rode with him one night. There were two ladies at an apartment complex that the manager didn't want there. When we got there, they were outside their car and the manager was there. After it was determined they didn't have any business to be there...they were told to leave. But before that my brother asked several times if he could search their car. Guess he thought something may be in there...I don't know. But they kept asking why and/or trying to avoid the question, but in the end they never said yes. So...they went on their way. When he came back to the car...I don't recall him saying anything like, "Them rude women!! they didn't let me search their car" or "I can't believe how disrespectful they were" etc... He pretty much didn't say anything about it and we went on.

Now had the yelled and screamed, called him names etc.... it may have been different, as far as his attitude at least. But while a bit "suspicious" I guess, they were calm and polite as was he.

To me one said thing is...I'm sure they felt they couldn't just flat out say No...or were at least scared to. Had they said that, he may not have kept asking.

Even if someone is going to say Yes, they should know and not be scared to say No, if they want to.