"Move" & IDPA

[DMark]

Something for us IDPA SOs to think about......

At local matches we SOs will often command the shooter to "Move" during a COA that requires movement, but that is just an act of kindness on the SO's part AND we might be doing more harm than good. At sanctioned matches don't expect the SO to tell you to getting moving. Fired that first shot standing still and you'll get a Procedual Error (PE).

Happened to me yesterday during the Music City Cup and the SO was completely in the right giving me a PE. I was wrong (but will blame it on my advancing years - - - not as quick to move as I once was).

I later reviewed the Rule Book - - - I would have sworn that the command "Move" was in it.

Here is what I found:

Range Commands (pages 43, 78-79 of the IDPA Rule Book).

During the actual firing of a CAO the SO will shout.....

The command "Cover" when the shooter is not using cover properly.

"Finger" to alert the shooter to take their finger off the trigger.

"Muzzle" to alert the shooter to maintain muzzle safe points.

There is NO mention of the term "Move" anywhere in the Rule Book.

I regret that I didn't go back to the SO after the match and commend him for being right and admitting that I was wrong.

Edited November 7, 2011 by DMark

[deerslayer]

I helped run stage 5 and had a shooter grumbling because I gave him a PE for shooting flat-footed without telling him to move first. After the shooter left, I told my scorekeeper, "I think that guy was serious." I gave numerous PEs yesterday.

[DMark]

Hey that could have been me. You where in the right, and I've been a SO/MD/AC for over a decade and figured that I knew it all.

Please accept this thread as my belated public apology.

And I'll take your comment "I think that guy was serious" as praise to my zero-down score on that stage.

Other than the rightfully given PE.

Edited November 7, 2011 by DMark

[deerslayer]

LOL@

And I'll take your comment "I think that guy was serious" as praise to my zero-down score on that stage.

Other than the rightfully given PE.

No apology needed--you weren't rude or anything.

Another guy argued that he shouldn't get a PE because I didn't yell "cover" quickly enough. I did yell "cover," but he was too quick on his first shot for me to catch him. Not my problem.

[Mechanic_X]

Myron gave out several for movement on our stage(bed stage). And one FTDR for not engaging a target with a magazine left. Saw some pretty nice dance moves/foot work from people keeping their feet moving.

[DMark]

.... Another guy argued that he shouldn't get a PE because I didn't yell "cover" quickly enough. I did yell "cover," but he was too quick on his first shot for me to catch him. Not my problem.

I keep page 44 of the Rule Book tabbed and highlighted where it states that even if the SO did not have time to yell Cover quick enough, the shooter stills get the PE.

Heck I'm just happy that I didn't get any Hits on a Non-Threat. Seems like those goofy no-shoot types where in the way of every shot. I hate those wimps, why don't they just drop to the ground like the wimpering babies they are so that we Manly Men can go about doing our Manly Business, in a Manly Matter!

Would make you think that the course designer(s) has trying to make it a challenging match.

[RWF]

great thread!

i do have question about, what i guess could be called movement. back about 10-12 years ago when i first started idpa, it was a big deal that you get fully back behind cover for the reload. that seems to have faded away. now when people are pieing a corner they stay leaned out to reload.

so was that ever a rule? or just way things were back then? just wondering?

[gsbell]

It was a clarification years ago may even have been the 05 re-write, if you are using suffcient cover for shooting it is good enough for reloading.

[nb forrest]

It was a clarification years ago may even have been the 05 re-write, if you are using suffcient cover for shooting it is good enough for reloading.

I have wondered about this also, thanks Greg.

[DMark]

It was part of the 2005 rewrite.

Page 43, Appendix THREE - Cover

More than 50% of the shooter's upper torso must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading.

As I recall the rewrite began a couple of years before the final published date. Early in the re-write, there was great discussion over this topic because the first rule book stated that reloads (meaning all reload types) had to be behind cover which suggested 100% behind.

The issue was based around a tactical scenario where one shoots to slide lock while using cover. The argument put forth was that it was better to stay in position and do an emergency reload from slide lock in order to keep a visual awareness of the threat. Therefore having only the upper 50% of the torso was seen as being the right thing to do in this scenario. It was also at that early point and time of the re-write sort of assumed (the Mother of all FUs) that tactical reloads & reloads with retention would still be done 100% behind cover since the scenario behind those type reloads were based on NOT being actively engaged.

When the "new" rule book finally came out in 2005 that difference was lost in the rule as written above.

[Guest gw2and4]

Another guy argued that he shouldn't get a PE because I didn't yell "cover" quickly enough. I did yell "cover," but he was too quick on his first shot for me to catch him. Not my problem.

That was me on stage 5. Your call was correct and there were no hard feelings.

Being new to acting as SO at sanctioned events, I was mainly questioning whether or not the SO had to yell "cover" first before calling the PE so I knew how to properly SO the following day.

It appears that the more relaxed SO methodology of club matches have some of us who lack sanctioned match SO experience entrenched in some bad habits...and it seems some club SOs could serve the IDPA community better by officiating consistently so that good habits are built in prep for major matches.

Regarding the "move" reminder being discussed herein: I called it on stage 10 to one or two of the shooters in the first squad of the day. So even though I was wrong to do so--I had to stay consistent for the remainder of the day. By the end of the day, I had very much learned a valuable lesson that it's best to stay quiet on movement and just call the PE if it was earned by the shooter.

Overall, I'm a better shooter and a better SO after this past weekend's match. And I very much appreciate all the more experienced shooters and SOs who took the time to add to my level of experience.

Sent from my iPhone 4

[DMark]

.... It appears that the more relaxed SO methodology of club matches have some of us who lack sanctioned match SO experience entrenched in some bad habits...and it seems some club SOs could serve the IDPA community better by officiating consistently so that good habits are built in prep for major matches....

Glenn,

You are Spot-On!

We have to remind ourselves to get into the Rule Book and understand it..., and not add to it such as with the example of this thread - the "Move" call.

[RWF]

It was part of the 2005 rewrite.

Page 43, Appendix THREE - Cover

More than 50% of the shooter's upper torso must be behind cover while engaging threat targets and/or reloading.

As I recall the rewrite began a couple of years before the final published date. Early in the re-write, there was great discussion over this topic because the first rule book stated that reloads (meaning all reload types) had to be behind cover which suggested 100% behind.

The issue was based around a tactical scenario where one shoots to slide lock while using cover. The argument put forth was that it was better to stay in position and do an emergency reload from slide lock in order to keep a visual awareness of the threat. Therefore having only the upper 50% of the torso was seen as being the right thing to do in this scenario. It was also at that early point and time of the re-write sort of assumed (the Mother of all FUs) that tactical reloads & reloads with retention would still be done 100% behind cover since the scenario behind those type reloads were based on NOT being actively engaged.

When the "new" rule book finally came out in 2005 that difference was lost in the rule as written above.

thanks, to you and greg, just never really knew what happen to that part. i guess myself like alot of others just got to caught up in the equipment changes, to notice the anything else. i know i was pissed because at that time it was new equipment for a family of 4.

thanks again.

[deerslayer]

Regarding the "move" reminder being discussed herein: I called it on stage 10 to one or two of the shooters in the first squad of the day. So even though I was wrong to do so--I had to stay consistent for the remainder of the day. By the end of the day, I had very much learned a valuable lesson that it's best to stay quiet on movement and just call the PE if it was earned by the shooter.

I don't think you were wrong to do so. I try to say "move" or "cover" before the shooter takes a shot. If I don't make it, they get a PE. If I make it and they fire anyway, they get a PE. If they adjust, then fire, no PE. A lot of the time, they hesitate and then adjust. Sometimes, I'm so far behind the shooter that I don't say anything. Why--he's already done before I can get it out. So, I don't think saying it or not saying it really presents a consistency problem. Consistency is much more important in situations like calling how much cover someone uses or at what point they can begin a reload, etc.