The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters

[saintsfanbrian]

Well you still have no friends yet,me thinks you need to help more people.I will let you start with me by giving me cash to buy new gun

Nah, I am that rare computer geek, I don't want friends. Leave me alone to my stored procedures and triggers (both SQL and Pistol/rifle/shotguns)

[Marswolf]

Nah, I am that rare computer geek, I don't want friends. Leave me alone to my stored procedures and triggers (both SQL and Pistol/rifle/shotguns)

You got Cheeto fingers like a real geek?

[saintsfanbrian]

Nope, we are out of Cheeto's. We do have all of the caffeine that you can drink for free in the refrigerator.

[DaveTN]

Yes. The last part. It is not "professional courtesy" to allow someone to break the law. Thus it is fundamentally different from lawyers, doctors, gun shop owners etc.

Most Police Officers have discretion on traffic tickets. (Although I hear that some departments want their Officers to write everyone they stop.)

Trust me when I say that you do not want to see that discretion taken away.

If I had burglars working a particular area in my district and I saw a suspicious vehicle I would stop it. And I would legally use the Illinois Vehicle Code to do that. If they checked out; I would let them go without a ticket. Should I have been required to write them a ticket because they have a license plate light out, no front plate, cross the centerline or roll a stop sign?

If I stop you for speeding and would happen to see something with your business name on it and ask you if you are the owner; and you reply that you are… I hand you back your license and say “Slow down and have a nice day.” Am I derelict in my duty because I gave you a break?

There were just about three pages of ramblings about whether or not cops are “civilians” the same as anyone else. (Like anyone gives a rolling rip down a razor blade.) The popular opinion is that they are…… unless you want to put them in a “Special Group” that gets a ticket any time there is a violation.

Cops are already held to a higher standard that the President of the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><ST1:pUnited States</st1:country-region> and many legislators. Have a nice day.

[The Rabbi]

Yes, it's all for our own good.

Gosh, those cops just have life so rough, held to a higher standard than the POTUS even!

At least you didnt blather on about how dangerous and tough the job is, like no one is getting paid to do it or they don't sign up for it.

[Fallguy]

Dave, I'm not saying whether officers should or should not have or use discretion, but where in the law does it allow for that? Unfortunately by the very fact that officers use discretion means they sometimes abuse it.

I'm also curious as to what a legally "suspicious" vehicle/person is and what law someone violates by being "suspicious" looking. I understand you said you would find some other legal reason to stop them if they appeared suspicious though.

[Marswolf]

Most Police Officers have discretion on traffic tickets. (Although I hear that some departments want their Officers to write everyone they stop.)

Trust me when I say that you do not want to see that discretion taken away.

Dave, I don't entirely disagree with you, but that "discretion" is one of the very real reasons why the public doesn't trust law enforcement. Unfortunately, I think it is a very good reason to not trust LE.

One rule for the public; another rule for LE. When should I "trust" that the laws should not be applied equally? Sorry, I just don't buy that.

Again, I'm a friend of LE, but I see the double standard as corruption. I can't buy it. There is just no rational need for it, as I see the situation.

Everyone needs to be subject to the law to the same extent.

Speaking directly, I see no reason that all of the laws, including speeding, should not be applied equally to absolutely everyone, including fellow LEOs.

That's not to say that speeding should be rigorously enforced. I suspect that if that happened, there would be a lot of top LEOs voted out at the next election. But that should be another topic.

[DaveTN]

Dave, I'm not saying whether officers should or should not have or use discretion, but where in the law does it allow for that?

For Te<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State>nnessee</st1:State> I don’t know. I don’t know if Officers have discretion, but I would guess they do.

When I started in <st1:State>Illinois</st1:State> we had discretion on all misdemeanors. If we could settle the problem without an arrest; we were allowed to do that. A felony required an arrest or at least a written report to the States Attorneys office to let them determine if charges would be filed.

Before I left we lost our discretion in two areas; DUI and Domestic Violence. On DUI if we thought they may be impaired we could not call a cab, allow someone else to drive or let them park their vehicle. They would be arrested or it was grounds for our dismissal.

If they wanted to blow and passed they could be released; if they refused they were to be arrested.

Prior to “Domestic Violence†we called them “family fightsâ€. The Officer had discretion to handle the call as he saw fit. If someone wanted to make an assault (threats with no contact) or a battery (physical contact) complaint the Officer could make an arrest… or not.

With Domestic Violence that changed. The State is the complainant and the victim has nothing to do with it. If some makes allegations against a family member; an arrest is made and the outcome will be decided in a court.

The intent of the law was good, but the decision that a cop shouldn’t be allowed to make an arrest determination wasn’t. A lot of people have been cuffed and taken to jail for stuff that never happened.

Unfortunately by the very fact that officers use discretion means they sometimes abuse it.

Absolutely. It just happened here in <st1:City>Murfreesboro</st1:City> with the Deputy Chiefs son.

But like anything else you deal with it when it happens. You don’t make blanket policies like “Everyone you stop gets a ticket.â€

I'm also curious as to what a legally "suspicious" vehicle/person is and what law someone violates by being "suspicious" looking. I understand you said you would find some other legal reason to stop them if they appeared suspicious though.

This won’t end well….. but here goes.

A suspicious vehicle or person is no more than gut instinct or knowledge of what is going on in the area. When I used the term “Legally†I meant that a reason is still needed to make the stop. With vehicles this is usually pretty easy. Expired license plates, no front plate, window tint, bald tires, illegal exhaust. These are just a few of the many examples of probable cause for a stop that will allow you to have a discussion with the driver. As I said in another post; a multitude of things can happen from there.

Criminal arrests are made off traffic stops. When you are driving a marked squad car with lights on top it’s pretty tough to witness a burglary (without the help of neighbors). Seeing a dirtbag driving in your neighborhood after he has just broken into your house and has your stolen stuff in plain view is more common.

[DaveTN]

Dave, I don't entirely disagree with you, but that "discretion" is one of the very real reasons why the public doesn't trust law enforcement. Unfortunately, I think it is a very good reason to not trust LE.

Well I disagree that whether or not cops gives cops tickets has much to do with the publics perception of Police Officers.

People have their perceptions based on their personal experiences, those related by friends and family and the news media. Some people hate cops for no reason other than they hate all people that have authority over them… cops, teachers or their boss.

Many people have truly meet bad cops. I am the first to admit they are out there and I am willing to give my opinions on how to deal with the situation both on the street and then later. Some of the information and recommendations being given here are just ridiculous; especially if you are being stopped by a bad cop.

I have put a lot of people in jail. I have put bad people in jail and I have put good people in jail. I treated people with respect and did what I had to do. But if you talked with some of those people their accounts of what happened and mine might be substantially different.

That’s just dealing with people.

One rule for the public; another rule for LE. When should I "trust" that the laws should not be applied equally? Sorry, I just don't buy that.

Again, I'm a friend of LE, but I see the double standard as corruption. I can't buy it. There is just no rational need for it, as I see the situation.

Everyone needs to be subject to the law to the same extent.

Speaking directly, I see no reason that all of the laws, including speeding, should not be applied equally to absolutely everyone, including fellow LEOs.

That’s an opinion held by some; arrest or ticket anyone that commits an offense. I know for a fact that would not be good for anyone….. but it sure should help keep my property taxes from going up.

That's not to say that speeding should be rigorously enforced. I suspect that if that happened, there would be a lot of top LEOs voted out at the next election. But that should be another topic.

Most “Top†LEO’s (with the exception of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:PlaceType>County</st1:PlaceType> <st1:PlaceName>Sheriffs</st1:PlaceName>) are not voted in and can’t be voted out. Politics has no place in law enforcement.

[Guest JRules]

Well heres my experiences with LE.

I have been pulled over probably 12 times now (and I am 24).

6 of those times ended in tickets the others ended in warnings.

11 of those times were in Illinois, with all the tickets being in Illinois.

I got pulled over in Winchester a few months back for 65 in a 40 at 2am, he told me not to do it again and just let me go, he didn't even run my license.

Everytime I have been treated well and I believe it is because I am honest and laid back, but not laid back to the point of disrespect just relaxed. In my experiences I have found if you treat them with respect they will do the same to you. Don't get all uptight like you have something better to do, most of the time they do to. I know in my case I was speeding everytime they pulled me over and I fully admitted it when asked.

I always start out by apologizing and saying that I was speeding and handing over the required info and have never been asked if they can search my car. The only time I have had a question asked of me that had nothing to do with what I got pulled over was "had I ever been arrested for weed". I said no and drove away with a warning.

The only time I had a cop actually mad at me was when I got pulled over for 70 in a 35 and drag racing, and even then he just wrote me a ticket saying I had to go to court and let me go. (that was an expensive one)

[saintsfanbrian]

Politics has no place in law enforcement.

You are 100% correct. Unfortunately, politics are ALL OVER law enforcement. We elect a sheriff but a chief of police is appointed. We don't like the sheriff we vote him out. Our chief of police messes up in our opinion and we are stuck with him until the mayor asks him to leave.

Great thing huh?

Nope.

And sorry, Cops do not have "authority" over me. They have the authority to enforce uphold the law. It is up to the DA to prosecute and the judge/jury to enforce. An officer writes a ticket or makes an arrest and then writes a report and the DA has the duty to follow up on it. If I disagree with a ticket I can fight it in court.

Sorry again, no authority.....

Not saying I hate police officers. I don't. They have a tough job to do, but don't try and tell me that because you wear a badge you shouldn't get a speeding ticket if you were speeding or a DUI if you deserve it. I don't buy it.

I understand police have discretion to write a ticket or not. I just think that being a police officer shouldn't automatically sway that discretion to the NOT side.

I recall a video not too long ago about an off duty police officer getting quite belligerent because he wasn't being let off. It is the assumption that you never will get a ticket that is the problem.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

tonight my family and i was going to wendy's to eat. i was doing the speed limit it was 45 and i look at my rear view mirror and saw two cop cars right on my bumper i thought oh st** what did i do. i got in to the right lane and they flew by be like i was sitting there. i thought they must be rushing to a call. well we got to wendy's and they were in there eating. i thought it was OK for them to speed but not for me. if i was speeding they would of pulled me over and gave me a ticket

[dariks]

French fry in distress call maybe?

[DaveTN]

tonight my family and i was going to wendy's to eat. i was doing the speed limit it was 45 and i look at my rear view mirror and saw two cop cars right on my bumper i thought oh st** what did i do. i got in to the right lane and they flew by be like i was sitting there. i thought they must be rushing to a call. well we got to wendy's and they were in there eating. i thought it was OK for them to speed but not for me. if i was speeding they would of pulled me over and gave me a ticket

It happens, and it’s not right. If you see it and feel strongly about it; report it.

Here is what happened on the only citizen’s complaint I ever had about that…

After eating supper at home I was leaving my house. There was radio traffic and I had not yet cleared with the dispatcher. I pulled up to a busy intersection and was stopped at a red light. At that time a citizens voice came over the radio screaming the number on the side of the squad car and yelling “This Officer needs help, there is blood everywhere!â€

The dispatcher responded with “I don’t have anyone clear, can any units respond?â€

That will shoot your adrenalin level through the roof. I hit the overheads, busted the light, and floored it. I was on the South side of town and the unit the citizen was in was as far North as it could be.

<O:p</O:p

I told the dispatcher I was clear and responding. At that same time a couple of closer units cleared the calls they were on and headed that way. The dispatcher told me “Move central and remain available; you’re all I have.†I shut down the overheads, dropped to the speed limit and continued on towards down town.

Well… a husband and wife at that light saw that and made the determination that I had done that so I wouldn’t have to wait for the light. They went to HQ to make a citizens complaint.

After things had calmed down a little the dispatcher called me to HQ and said “See Command.â€

Our LT ask me what happened and told me there were some citizens here to make a complaint. I told him.

<O:p</O:p

Our LT took that couple into the dispatch room and played the tape back so those folks could hear what I heard and was responding to.

<O:p</O:p

I really felt sorry for them as they apologized and said they felt terrible. They even waited for me outside and started apologizing again in the parking lot. I assured them that I was not upset with them; they were doing what they thought was right. I told them that kind of thing is reported to Command Officers all the time… and usually what the Officer was doing is justified. They seemed like nice people, they got an inside look at some of the stuff that goes on and I think they left with a different opinion of cops in general.

But who knows…. Maybe the cops you saw were just really hungry.

[Fallguy]

And sorry, Cops do not have "authority" over me. They have the authority to enforce uphold the law. It is up to the DA to prosecute and the judge/jury to enforce. An officer writes a ticket or makes an arrest and then writes a report and the DA has the duty to follow up on it. If I disagree with a ticket I can fight it in court.

Sorry again, no authority.....

I agree with that statement.

...and Dave it sounds like the couple, you and the LT all handled the complaint very well.

[deerslayer]

Well I disagree that whether or not cops gives cops tickets has much to do with the publics perception of Police Officers.

It has an extremely negative impact on the public's perception of police. Police give you a ticket for going 12 over, then themselves drive 20 over, then let a fellow officer out of a DUI. The law applies only to non-LEO, at least around here. Anyone who doesn't think this gives the cops a bad name has his head in the sand. I started the "discretion" thing by asking a cop who boasted on this thread that he treats everyone equally just how many tickets he has given his fellow officers, and I still haven't heard back from him.

Edited March 28, 2008 by deerslayer

[Guest darkstar]

I don't think all the news today of a steroid ring with some recent Nashville and M'boro cops are going to help the public perception. Looks like these chuckleheads barely graduated from the academy and booom, they are gone. Thats what you need, young cops on 'roids...nice uh...decision making process there. I think I also read about some female metro cop that resigned like the day after she got out of the academy for a DUI just a few weeks ago. They must not be getting quality applicants these days.

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

I was going to stay out of this thread. It usually gets pretty ugly, pretty fast. Lines are drawn between people who have an emotional connection to law enforcement, and people who don't trust the government. I belong to the latter group.

No one has mentioned some of the most important cases involving interactions between LE and private citizens.

Here's a good primer from the Federal courts:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/03.html

For those of you who may be curious and not understand some of the concepts here, you need to read case law relating to the Fourth Amendment. This amendment is most germaine to your relationship with the government in regards to it's agents having the right to interfere with your liberty. Someone has asked about "suspicion" on the part of the police. You need to read Terry v. Ohio to understand the legislation that was written from the bench in regards to suspicion. An entire doctrine was simply pulled from the ether in an attempt to allow the state an undue place in your life. It was written because probable cause, which is actually written in the part of the Constitution that deals with seizure, is a much higher, stricter standard. Reasonable suspicion is not a standard at all. The difference in the two is akin to the difference in "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "a preponderance of the evidence".

The only real advice I'd give to you is that the best dealings you'll have with LE are the ones where you remain objective, calm, and patient. While it may be tempting to spit in the face of an obnoxious stranger who is intruding upon your life and your person, doing so will not go well if that stranger is a cop. Judges and law makers know who the foot soldiers are. They know who makes their words manifest and who really gives them their power. They have afforded these men and women special protections under the law, and they'll nail your hide to the wall if you dare buck up.

Also, it would be good if we all remembered that the majority of cops really are decent sorts who are out to get the bad guys. They aren't individually responsible for the tools that the government has given them. While that doesn't absolve them of their responsibility for poor behavior or for participating in the eroding of the Constitution, it certainly makes them no more responsible for our Constitution's sad state than, say, you or I. Ultimately, the government, and it's agents, have no more power than the people give to them.

[deerslayer]

Also, it would be good if we all remembered that the majority of cops really are decent sorts who are out to get the bad guys.

Not sure where you are from, but that assumption is highly debatable in Memphis.

[Guest Abominable_Hillbilly]

Not sure where you are from, but that assumption is highly debatable in Memphis.

Knoxville, but I've dealt with Memphis PD on numerous occasions. Most cops seem to go with as much rope as they're given. I agree that Memphis has some issues. I try to deal with all cops with an open mind, though.

[Guest jackdog]

My used to be lawyer is now a circuit court judge. I was to meet him at a local golf course, and he was running late. He was doing 48 in a 45 and the good old Dover police pulled him over. Yup he got a ticket and he was livid. Just before we teed off I asked him why he was so pissed, Had it been me or anyone else we would have got the same ticket. He responded that he was a judge that there is professional courtesy. I smiled and said sorry you are flat wrong. Happy ending I won 75.00 from him. Dover takes no prisoners, everyone gets a ticket. Hate driving through town but at least they are fair.

[Guest dotsun]

My used to be lawyer is now a circuit court judge. I was to meet him at a local golf course, and he was running late. He was doing 48 in a 45 and the good old Dover police pulled him over. Yup he got a ticket and he was livid. Just before we teed off I asked him why he was so pissed, Had it been me or anyone else we would have got the same ticket. He responded that he was a judge that there is professional courtesy. I smiled and said sorry you are flat wrong. Happy ending I won 75.00 from him. Dover takes no prisoners, everyone gets a ticket. Hate driving through town but at least they are fair.

What he should have been rightly pissed about is getting a ticket for doing 3 mph over the speed limit.

[dralarms]

What he should have been rightly pissed about is getting a ticket for doing 3 mph over the speed limit.

Yea, exactly.

[Marswolf]

Remember that in many (most?) departments officers have their quota of traffic tickets they are expected to issue on their shift. It's more revenue enhancement than making the streets safe. Problems like that start at the top with the Chief and Board of Mayor and Alderman or County Commission. I'm always more careful for the first couple of hours of a shift.

More recently, red light cameras have become a means of revenue enhancement, even if it actually makes the streets less safe by causing more rear end collisions. Kingsport adds some more every few months. I go to Kingsport a lot less than I used to because of them. I take my business to places I'm not hassled as much.

The traffic ticket scam can cost an area too. And it does degrade the image of LE to the public.

I've advocated for years that all revenue from traffic fines go directly to the state and in no way be returned to the counties or municipalities.based on how much money they raise. I also advocate that traffic stops only be made that will result in the driver being taken to jail. Eliminate tickets altogether. If the crime isn't bad enough to incarcerate someone, it isn't bad enough to ticket them.

Another pipe dream....

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

I didn't used to buy that "it's all about revenue" story, but I sure do now. Yesterday my boss got a ticket for 43 in a 40. She saw them well in advance, and didn't consider 43 to be speeding, but they were obviously told to catch up on that quota. She said they were even telling them "Just go pay it in 15 days and it won't even go on your record". The guy in front of her was clocked doing 53, but they dropped it to 45 so he could "just pay it in 15 days and not go on your record". If it's not an on your record citation, and they're dropping down the speeds that were clocked, it's all about the money.