The Citizen's Guide to Surviving Police Encounters

[Guest strelcevina]

great videos to see.

Flex your rights:)

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[/ame] Edited March 22, 2008 by strelcevina

[Guest strelcevina]

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[DaveTN]

If you want to know how to best protect yourself for a criminal trail; ask a lawyer.

If you want to know how to survive a traffic stop; ask a cop.

Telling someone to lock their car on a traffic stop, refuse any request to search, and to invoke their 5<SUP>th</SUP> amendment rights in all cases is as irresponsible as telling someone to allow a search in all cases.

As a former cop I have tried my best to explain to my kids how to survive a traffic stop. I wish it was as easy as the lawyers make it look, but it isn’t. There are to many variables involved.

Intelligent decisions need to be made based on the circumstances. A minor drug possession or a DUI arrest can seriously impact a kid’s future. If you are going to instruct your kids on what to do you need to be clear that you are giving them good information.

I have done more traffic stops that any attorney I know. You may not or agree with what cops have to say but you need to listen to both sides (cops and criminal defense attorneys) and make an informed decision.

Thinking that “Flexing your rights†will result in you driving away with everyone in your car high fiving and saying “you are the man!†is laughable.

Be informed; know the law.

[Marswolf]

As always, I have a mixed perspective.

This video is basically a ACLU video. But that doesn't necessarily make it bad.

Cops are trained to intimidate you into giving up your rights. There are things you should not admit and you should not permit your vehicle to be searched without reason.

I have a friend who is a retired police chief and who lives in Sevierville. He got stopped for something by county cops around Newport. They asked to search and he said NO! He had nothing to hide, but it's a matter of principle with him. He says to always say "no." The officer became very irate. After a few minutes of intimidation techniques, he backed down. He had no probable cause and knew it. After he calmed down my friend told him who he was. I suspect that officer learned something that day.

The video, as I recall (haven't seen it in a few months) basically says to not give up your 5th Amendment rights and don't allow a search.. I agree.

That's not to say they won't bring in a drug dog trained to do false positives and do a search anyway. That has been known to happen.... But it will be an inconvenience and becomes part of a pattern of deceit on the part of the department.

Remember, I'm not anti-cop. I'm pro-professionally acting-cops. Unfortunately the world is filled with bad cops who think the rules are just an inconvenience. I want all of those folks fired and prosecuted if possible.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

i was pulled over one time for no reason well the cop said i crossed the yellow line. i got out he was a smart arse i could tell he was a rookie. he wanted to search my car. i knew i had nothing in there because i dont do drugs. so i decided to have some fun with him . i said no well he did bring in a drug dog trained and the dog did do a false positives. they search it and found nothing. one of the cops there that i knew said why didn't i just not let him do the search. i told him if the guys was not such a smart arse i would of but around here if you say no they will keep you there until they can search your car

[DaveTN]

It’s not a false positive when there is dope in the car as in the first video.

A dog would have been called, hit on the car, the kids would be arrested and the car would be impounded.

I have let a lot of young people go (released to their parents) that were in possession of a small amount of pot. That may no longer be an option when a K-9 unit and (sometimes) a Command Officer arrived on the scene.

I have called the parents of kids with alcohol that have cooperated and released them without arrest. I have also arrested some for DUI that refused to answer any questions and told me I need a warrant to search their car based on what their parents or a schoolteacher told them. When they have a DUI conviction they can thank whoever gave them the wonderful legal advise that landed them in jail.

If you are in possession of an illegal substance that you are sure will get you jailed planning for your incarceration and pending criminal trial makes sense. If you have a small amount where the Officer has discretion you will be faced with choices. Cooperating may get you a pass; it may end in your arrest…. You must make informed choices.

Adults can make whatever decision they are ready to take responsibility for. But it’s to bad that kids have to pay the price for bad information.

I do not expect my opinions to be popular…. Just offering real world experience.

[Fallguy]

Remember, I'm not anti-cop. I'm pro-professionally acting-cops. Unfortunately the world is filled with bad cops who think the rules are just an inconvenience. I want all of those folks fired and prosecuted if possible.

Best quote I've heard in a while!!

[Marswolf]

Yeah Dave I agree with you that if you are caught, you are caught. The video is clearly pro-drug.

But you still shouldn't give up your rights. If all you are doing is alcohol above the limit, you might as well admit it. If you are doing more, you might as well make them prove it. Maybe the drug dog isn't available. Spin the wheel. Sometimes you win - sometimes you lose. If you know you have drugs, you might as well play it out. I never understand why the druggies on Cops allow a search that they know will find drugs. Guess they are as stupid as they look.

Of course, although I work in the drug related enforcement business, I think most drug laws are idiotic and a waste of tax money, talent and time.

But I will agree that you should never allow a residence search without a warrant. Never! I pretty much think that a home is a castle. If you aren't hurting someone else, what happens there is yourbusiness.

Edited March 22, 2008 by Marswolf

[DaveTN]

I never understand why the druggies on Cops allow a search that they know will find drugs. Guess they are as stupid as they look.

They allow it because they have played the game before or know someone that has. They don’t want the dogs called and they hope that by cooperating the cops will miss their drugs in a search, not search at all or will let them go if they have a small amount.

Yes they are as stupid as they look… or they wouldn’t be driving around with drugs in the car.

[Cannon Fodder]

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I'm reminded of that video.

[Guest strelcevina]

As always, I have a mixed perspective.

This video is basically a ACLU video. But that doesn't necessarily make it bad.

Cops are trained to intimidate you into giving up your rights. There are things you should not admit and you should not permit your vehicle to be searched without reason.

I have a friend who is a retired police chief and who lives in Sevierville. He got stopped for something by county cops around Newport. They asked to search and he said NO! He had nothing to hide, but it's a matter of principle with him. He says to always say "no." The officer became very irate. After a few minutes of intimidation techniques, he backed down. He had no probable cause and knew it. After he calmed down my friend told him who he was. I suspect that officer learned something that day.

The video, as I recall (haven't seen it in a few months) basically says to not give up your 5th Amendment rights and don't allow a search.. I agree.

That's not to say they won't bring in a drug dog trained to do false positives and do a search anyway. That has been known to happen.... But it will be an inconvenience and becomes part of a pattern of deceit on the part of the department.

Remember, I'm not anti-cop. I'm pro-professionally acting-cops. Unfortunately the world is filled with bad cops who think the rules are just an inconvenience. I want all of those folks fired and prosecuted if possible.

+1

Amen

[Marswolf]

One more point.

I've sat on a few juries. Been foreman on more than one criminal court jury. (That tends to be a good indication of political potential, BTW Foreman are elected) No, I won't run. Been asked a bunch of times.

In all -all - cases, there has been at least one juror - besides me - who is willing to question the honesty of the cops. They are worldly enough to know how the cops work. Cops don't seem to understand that is common - not dis-common. That's a sad commentary if you ask me and a good reason for my continuing campaign for professionalism among LEOs. Judges tend to accept LEO testimony. Juries are much less likely to do that.

Someone on a jury is likely to know drug dogs will do false positives. And probably at least half the people on the jury will have done illegal drugs at some time in their life. They probably have some feeling about how dumb drug laws are. They just might be willing to exclude the evidence after that "discovery" by the dogs. Again, bad cops lead to a perception of all cops being bad.

All you have to have is one juror who won't go along with the mindless crowd. I always vote what I think is right and fair -- regardless of the crowd pressure. I never bend to mindless pressure - never. In my experience, most juries are that way. My position, after discussion has never lost.

I keep telling my LE friends that juries are almost always much smarter than they imagine. We have been known to let defendants go free because we knew conviction would be unjust without other "victims" being charged.

I guess the lesson here is to always take it trial and let the jury decide.

And Cannon Fodder, much of your video sums it up.

[DaveTN]

I have never been on a jury, I was called once but when they found out I was a cop they wouldn’t let me play.

But I have testified in more jury trials than I care to remember, including my own trial for carrying in Illinois. My case was dismissed by the trial Judge. The States Attorney filed an appeal and the appeals court overruled the Judge and kicked it back for trial…. More money.

Juries don’t get to decide if the search was lawful or procedure was followed; Judges rule on that prior to the trial. Juries usually only care if the person did what they are accused of especially in drug cases.

Criminal trials are a tremendous expense and can be financially devastating for the average family. That is one of the reasons few cases go to a jury trial.

Having a holdout on the jury because someone doesn’t agree with the law hardly ever works. If it did all you would need at a DUI trial is a drunk on the jury. All that does is prolong the deliberations or ends in a hung jury and a new trail at an even greater cost.

When Perry March went to trial I remember seeing a story on the news about trials. I don’t remember the exact number but they gave a percentage number on convictions in jury trials in Davidson County. Maybe someone has a source but it seems it was like an 80% conviction rate. That’s not rolling the dice; that’s putting your head in the noose.

[Marswolf]

Juries don’t get to decide if the search was lawful or procedure was followed; Judges rule on that prior to the trial. Juries usually only care if the person did what they are accused of especially in drug cases.

True, but good defense attorneys will hint at the problem. Again, juries are not stupid and the officers are always required to testify regardless of what the judge rules - subject to appeal of the stupid. Judges are not going to rule than an officer can not be questioned.

Criminal trials are a tremendous expense and can be financially devastating for the average family. That is one of the reasons few cases go to a jury trial.

If the defendant requests it, it goes to trial regardless of financial ability. Some have nothing to lose. Force trial cost on them? BFD. They have nothing to lose.

Having a holdout on the jury because someone doesn’t agree with the law hardly ever works. If it did all you would need at a DUI trial is a drunk on the jury. All that does is prolong the deliberations or ends in a hung jury and a new trail at an even greater cost.[/size][/font]

Having been on a jury, I can tell you it is how it is handled. I've been on two juries where decisions were changed because of juror knowledge of police techniques and their willingness to lie.

I don't like doing this, because I hate to see some basically say "prove it" but in this case, I have to ask you to provide evidence that. "Having a holdout on the jury because someone doesn’t agree with the law hardly ever works." I've seen the opposite.

And a hung jury is almost always a win for the defense.

[Guest darkstar]

I gotta gree with Mars' comment about being pro-police and having lousy cops prosecuted. In the very few times I have had to deal with police they have all been pretty decent except for one. I got pulled over on Briley Parkway by Opry Mills ( in Nashville) so the cop comes up to me and pretty much yelling demands the paperwork and so forth. I give him my stuff and he starts yelling at me that I was swerving all over the road and thats why he pulled me over and he's gonna do a sobriety test. I admited to swerving and showed him the welt under my eye...there was a wasp in my truck and it nailed me right under my left eye, hell yeah I swerved. I'm trying to explain this and seriously my eye is swelling up almost shut and this guy is going on and on and on, really un-professional. The jerk made me do a field sobriety test on the side of the road, and when I passed it then made a big show of searching my vehicle (I admit I was hoping this idiot would get stung as well). He finally figured out I was stone cold sober and said I could go. My eye was completely shut by this time. I would have gotten his name and all but was just wanting to get some ice on that, luckily I'm not allergic or this guy would have been screaming at me as I started flopping all over the place.

I know the cops have a tough job and deal with the dregs of society all day long but there is never an excuse for a cop being a jerk or dishonest.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

I know the cops have a tough job and deal with the dregs of society all day long but there is never an excuse for a cop being a jerk or dishonest.

you mean like this one

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[Guest darkstar]

Yeah..... that was dumb. Unless the video didn't show the kid flipping him off or something else to piss the cop off that whole thing could have been avoided. Not saying the kid is an angel, he (like most 14 year olds) is probably a smart-ass, but the cop comes off as being arrogant and pretty much a jerk.

[Guest strelcevina]

my personal experience with LEO so far is super positive.

one time i was speeding "45 in 30mph zone" in east Nashville . i was asked to allow him to search my car. so i did .

after brief search, officer was polite and did let me go without giving me a ticket:)

second time i was changing flat tire on my Cadillac, on the west end avenue at 11PM.

i had my beretta with me, and i was just unscrewing a tire when officer arrived , my gun was completely visible , and i didn't wont to do any sudden movements, officer came closer , and first thing i was saying was, sir i have a CHL and it is in my wallet,

he had a big smile on his face, don't worry about it ,he told me, and was holding his light so i can see better ,what i was doing.

such a pleasant experience:)

on other occasion i was coming back from Ashland city gun range, and i had 6or 7 guns with me. after i arrived home and carried my guns in the house, 30min later i had 5 fully armed LEO's and i am talking ar15 shotguns and handguns, knocking on my door, so i opened,

leo asked me is this car mine , so i said yes it is , and what is a problem officer , he asked me for my ID,i gave him and i invite him in to house,

he told me that they got a call , that i had large amount of guns.

i told him , i don't have that many, and i was just coming from a range and had only 6 or 7 with me:D and i can show it to him if he wonts to.

other LEo walked in 5 min later and appolegise to me for inconvenience they cosed to me.

a neighbor called them ,assuming that because i,m young and live in 250K house, i had to do something illegal.

i,m glad that a year later they foreclosed his house "drunk bastard" sorry for my French.

i posted this videos just because i didn't know my constitutional rights like that. considering police encounters.

in my house visit experience, now knowing this, i wouldn't let them in,

just because my house was a mess:D

[The Rabbi]

I just dont see much purpose in ceding my Constitutional rights right off the bat. If the cop has probably cause, then he doesnt need my permission to search my car. If he doesnt then how is he going to convince a magistrate to issue a search warrant?

I;m going to be polite but not especially helpful.

[Im Neero]

I;m going to be polite but not especially helpful.

Me too.

[Fallguy]

I just dont see much purpose in ceding my Constitutional rights right off the bat. If the cop has probably cause, then he doesnt need my permission to search my car. If he doesnt then how is he going to convince a magistrate to issue a search warrant?

I;m going to be polite but not especially helpful.

I have to agree....

my personal experience with LEO so far is super positive.

one time i was speeding "45 in 30mph zone" in east Nashville . i was asked to allow him to search my car. so i did .

after brief search, officer was polite and did let me go without giving me a ticket:)

Did letting him search keep you from getting a ticket?...Maybe, maybe not. But why would he ask to search? Just because he wants to is not good enough for me, even with nothing to hide on my part.

second time i was changing flat tire on my Cadillac, on the west end avenue at 11PM.

i had my beretta with me, and i was just unscrewing a tire when officer arrived , my gun was completely visible , and i didn't wont to do any sudden movements, officer came closer , and first thing i was saying was, sir i have a CHL and it is in my wallet,

he had a big smile on his face, don't worry about it ,he told me, and was holding his light so i can see better ,what i was doing.

such a pleasant experience:)

In this case I probably would have informed the officer as well...other than I would have said Handgun Carry Permit as TN does not issue CHLs

on other occasion i was coming back from Ashland city gun range, and i had 6or 7 guns with me. after i arrived home and carried my guns in the house, 30min later i had 5 fully armed LEO's and i am talking ar15 shotguns and handguns, knocking on my door, so i opened,

leo asked me is this car mine , so i said yes it is , and what is a problem officer , he asked me for my ID,i gave him and i invite him in to house,

he told me that they got a call , that i had large amount of guns.

i told him , i don't have that many, and i was just coming from a range and had only 6 or 7 with me:D and i can show it to him if he wonts to.

other LEo walked in 5 min later and appolegise to me for inconvenience they cosed to me.

a neighbor called them ,assuming that because i,m young and live in 250K house, i had to do something illegal.

i,m glad that a year later they foreclosed his house "drunk bastard" sorry for my French.

To some degree I understand they had to respond, but would have been nice if the caller would have just been told it is not illegal to own several firearms. Still see no reason to let them past the front door, if you don't want to.

i posted this videos just because i didn't know my constitutional rights like that. considering police encounters.

in my house visit experience, now knowing this, i wouldn't let them in,

just because my house was a mess:D

Nothing like knowing what your rights are...then at least you can exercise them as you choose.

Edited March 23, 2008 by Fallguy

[Guest strelcevina]

I have to agree....

In this case I probably would have informed the officer as well...other than I would have Handgun Carry Permit as TN does not issue CHLs

you made me look my CH license. it is Permit.

i have it for many years , and i could swear its CH license.:Dlol

[Fallguy]

you made me look my CH license. it is Permit.

i have it for many years , and i could swear its CH license.:Dlol

LOL...also if CH means Concealed Handgun...you'll notice it does not have C or Concealed on there either. It does not have to be concealed in TN, but it does have to be handgun...lol

[Guest slothful1]

If an LEO asks permission to search my vehicle, he should expect to receive the same answer as any other random stranger who wants to rummage through my things (albeit polite, of course).

[Guest jackdog]

I try to be polite when I get pulled over, But wanting to search my vehicle is and always will be a big no.