Murfreesboro Roadblock off 840

[Guest BenderBendingRodriguez]

I'm wondering if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution? No, God didn't write the Constitution, the Constitution was written to protect those God given rights that are already there.

The Declaration of Independence makes mention of rights which could be described as "God-given," though doesn't mention them with any more specificity than to call them "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." It goes on to specify that governments are instituted with the aim of securing those rights, though does not provide much in the way of guidance about how that is done (only noting that governments are apparently necessary to achieve that aim).

The Constitution -- i.e. the source of the Amendments you referenced -- a document drafted more than 10 years later and signed by only 6 of the same people, makes precisely zero references to any sort of God-given rights.

[TMF]

The Constitution -- i.e. the source of the Amendments you referenced -- a document drafted more than 10 years later and signed by only 6 of the same people, makes precisely zero references to any sort of God-given rights.

Sounds to me like you read it before.

[Guest]

Papiere, bitte?

[Guest kirkosaurus]

The Declaration of Independence makes mention of rights which could be described as "God-given," though doesn't mention them with any more specificity than to call them "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." It goes on to specify that governments are instituted with the aim of securing those rights, though does not provide much in the way of guidance about how that is done (only noting that governments are apparently necessary to achieve that aim).

The Constitution -- i.e. the source of the Amendments you referenced -- a document drafted more than 10 years later and signed by only 6 of the same people, makes precisely zero references to any sort of God-given rights.

So where do our rights come from?

[Guest BenderBendingRodriguez]

Sounds to me like you read it before.

Perhaps just once or twice... I try to stay out of conversations if I haven't read the appropriate source material. It's better for everyone that way.

[Fallguy]

The Declaration of Independence makes mention of rights which could be described as "God-given," though doesn't mention them with any more specificity than to call them "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." It goes on to specify that governments are instituted with the aim of securing those rights, though does not provide much in the way of guidance about how that is done (only noting that governments are apparently necessary to achieve that aim).

The Constitution -- i.e. the source of the Amendments you referenced -- a document drafted more than 10 years later and signed by only 6 of the same people, makes precisely zero references to any sort of God-given rights.

That's not how I take it....Securing rights has nothing to do with achieving them. It is up to me to try and achieve them...the government has recognized (not given them to me) that I have them are supposed to help me protect me from those that may wish to try and take them from me.

Also life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness weren't the only ones, just the ones listed..."that among these...." so it would seem they thought there were more, just that those three needed to be mentioned. Maybe they thought others are or should be so obvious as not to need to be listed...I don't know, they were much smarter than I.

[Guest BenderBendingRodriguez]

So where do our rights come from?

Do you mean literally, or philosophically? In this country, our rights literally and practically come from the Constitution and various laws, statutes, regulations, etc. promulgated by the different levels of government and the courts.

The basis for those laws, statutes, regulations, etc. can be found in quite a wide variety of places, including all manners of philosophy and religion from over the centuries with a little bit of common sense mixed in. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

If you want to know where our rights come from in the abstract, separate and apart from your country of origin or residence and and rule of man...I could give you lots and lots of options to choose from, and I'm afraid that a Christian God falls somewhere near the bottom of my list...

[Guest BenderBendingRodriguez]

That's not how I take it....Securing rights has nothing to do with achieving them. It is up to me to try and achieve them...the government has recognized (not given them to me) that I have them are supposed to help me protect me from those that may wish to try and take them from me.

The "aim" I noted as being achieved was "the aim of securing those rights." They say that "to secure these rights, governments are instituted amongst men." Thus my claim that they seem to be suggesting that you need a government to secure the rights previously mentioned. "Secure" presumably meaning to protect, not to obtain. Our argument on this point is really nothing more than semantic.

Also life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness weren't the only ones, just the ones listed..."that among these...." so it would seem they thought there were more, just that those three needed to be mentioned. Maybe they thought others are or should be so obvious as not to need to be listed...I don't know, they were much smarter than I.

Again, I never said it was an exclusive list, only that it is the extent of the specificity with which these God-given rights are mentioned. I don't really understand how this impacts my contention that the Declaration of Independence was written more than a decade before the Constitution by substantially different people, or that the Constitution (which, unlike the Declaration of Independence, is intended to be the supreme rule of the land) makes no reference to any God-given rights. If people are trying to say that the 4th (or 5th) Amendment is expressing a God-given right, that is their personal belief. It is not, however, a belief that is supported by the Constitution itself.

[Guest kirkosaurus]

The basis for those laws, statutes, regulations, etc. can be found in quite a wide variety of places, including all manners of philosophy and religion from over the centuries with a little bit of common sense mixed in. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.

So basically others determine your rights and you're cool with that? So if it was determined by laws, statutes, regulations, etc. that the 2nd amendment be done away with that's OK?

[Guest BenderBendingRodriguez]

So basically others determine your rights and you're cool with that? So if it was determined by laws, statutes, regulations, etc. that the 2nd amendment be done away with that's OK?

Part of living in a society is that other people determine your rights. In this particular society, those people are members of the government and judiciary. If you want to influence what rights you and everyone else get, either start running for office, start practicing law, or vote. You can also be an active voice in petitioning the government.

In other societies, rights are determined in different ways. In some of those places rights are established through a religious text. But don't fool yourself into thinking that relying on a religious text isn't having someone else determine your rights.

And, understanding the way the Constitution works, I recognize that if a amendment were passed which repealed the 2nd Amendment then that would be that. Other laws, statutes, regulations, etc. are insufficient to "do away with" the 2nd Amendment, though they may attempt to shape its interpretation and/or implementation (to varying degrees of success).

I do not believe gun ownership is a God-given right. I believe it is a right granted to us by the Constitution. That doesn't mean I believe it is unimportant, or that I wouldn't work to try to prevent the passage of an amendment repealing the 2nd Amendment, but that is the nature of the beast.

[JayC]

Rights given by the Government are privileges which they can take away... Rights which comes from your humanity can never be taken away, only violated by the government.

Part of living in a society is that other people determine your rights. In this particular society, those people are members of the government and judiciary. If you want to influence what rights you and everyone else get, either start running for office, start practicing law, or vote. You can also be an active voice in petitioning the government.

In other societies, rights are determined in different ways. In some of those places rights are established through a religious text. But don't fool yourself into thinking that relying on a religious text isn't having someone else determine your rights.

And, understanding the way the Constitution works, I recognize that if a amendment were passed which repealed the 2nd Amendment then that would be that. Other laws, statutes, regulations, etc. are insufficient to "do away with" the 2nd Amendment, though they may attempt to shape its interpretation and/or implementation (to varying degrees of success).

I do not believe gun ownership is a God-given right. I believe it is a right granted to us by the Constitution. That doesn't mean I believe it is unimportant, or that I wouldn't work to try to prevent the passage of an amendment repealing the 2nd Amendment, but that is the nature of the beast.

[TMF]

So basically others determine your rights and you're cool with that? So if it was determined by laws, statutes, regulations, etc. that the 2nd amendment be done away with that's OK?

The other day a guy thought it was his right to have sex with a dog. The law stepped in and said that it was not his right. Stupid law.

[Guest ab28]

I was coming home from work and saw the roadblock. I don't consider driving a privilege, in a way, because our poorly designed cities make cars a necessity. Everything is so far apart, you need one. I went without one for a couple of years, and it was a massive headache having to get groceries, ect.

On a side note, I work at the Mapco on the corner of Broad and Thompson, and I have had many interesting conversations with people that show their HCP for beer. I can't carry because I have a Glock 19, and while I do wear a tshirt at work, I bend over, lean, ect while stocking shelves, and the shirt would ride up and expose my weapon. It is company policy for the employees not to be armed, and I would get fired if the manager saw it. I would carry anyways, but the likelihood of my weapon being exposed is very good. A few of the other employees would not care, as they are pro gun, and know I have training.

[Wyldk2]

The thing that i always have wondered was why do they(law enforcement) make it known in advance about DUI checkpoints. If they are hoping to catch those that commit DUI, they might have a unpublicized roadblock in an area where DUI is prevalent in the past.

In the past, A few years ago. I was coming home from an atv ride up at Pickett. Came to a trooper checkpoint. Gave the license since they asked. All the trooper asked was If I had been drinking( i don't drink and drive anything). Only drink water and gatorade on any atv rides. ( trooper was a young fella i think, looked just over 21). Then he pointed to my radar detector and asked what it was for. It's legal, and i have it for emergency vehicle notification. My vehicle, pulling a trailer, is no where near being a "fast" vehicle. He said thats ok, and sent me on my way. All this before i even considered getting a HCP and a pistol.

[JayC]

It's a requirement that they notify the public before doing checkpoints or anything found at the checkpoints can be thrown out. Also, they must design the checkpoint to allow people to opportunity to avoid the checkpoint.

The thing that i always have wondered was why do they(law enforcement) make it known in advance about DUI checkpoints. If they are hoping to catch those that commit DUI, they might have a unpublicized roadblock in an area where DUI is prevalent in the past.

In the past, A few years ago. I was coming home from an atv ride up at Pickett. Came to a trooper checkpoint. Gave the license since they asked. All the trooper asked was If I had been drinking( i don't drink and drive anything). Only drink water and gatorade on any atv rides. ( trooper was a young fella i think, looked just over 21). Then he pointed to my radar detector and asked what it was for. It's legal, and i have it for emergency vehicle notification. My vehicle, pulling a trailer, is no where near being a "fast" vehicle. He said thats ok, and sent me on my way. All this before i even considered getting a HCP and a pistol.

[Guest klwehunt]

Does anyone here really think that the leo's at the road block really care if said friends father gets killed by a drunk driver?I think they carry out the road blocks because that is what the powers at be tell them to do and it is a matter of how much money it makes for the departments,the judicial system lawyers etc. How do you think they pay for all of the neat guns ,drug dogs,swat teams and so forth.imho of course

[Pain103]

Does anyone here really think that the leo's at the road block really care if said friends father gets killed by a drunk driver?I think they carry out the road blocks because that is what the powers at be tell them to do and it is a matter of how much money it makes for the departments,the judicial system lawyers etc. How do you think they pay for all of the neat guns ,drug dogs,swat teams and so forth.imho of course

By your opinion I can tell you have no clue how revenue is input into government operations. If you think a sobriety checkpoint generates even enough revenue to pay for itself you would completely wrong. You would be wrong also to think there aren't officers who are concerned about getting impaired drivers off the street. But you as everyone else is entitled to your opinion regardless of how one sided it is. Have a nice day.

[DWARREN123]

Roadblocks, don't like them.

The real problem is why do people with DUI's, especially mutiple ones, still have a vehicle and license and continue to drive!

[hornett22]

When was the last time they passed a drinking law? Seems ignored. Hell,the sell cases of beer at GAS STATIONS!

I don't think drinking is a God given right. I have no problem if they ban it.

Better yet,get rid if the HCP but require a permit to buy or be in possession of alchohol.

Edited January 2, 2012 by hornett22

[BryanP]

I don't think drinking is a God given right. I have no problem if they ban it.

Yeah, that worked really well the last time we tried it.

[Guest bkelm18]

I don't think drinking is a God given right. I have no problem if they ban it.

You know, some people say the exact same thing about guns.

[Mykltn]

Whats horse sh*t is when your friends dad gets killed in a head on collision by a drunk driver.

Maybe if the drunk had of drove up on a road block, my friends dad would still be alive.

The argument of every person who ever supported a law restricting your right to keep and bear arms. I am sorry about your friends dad. My dad was killed in a head on collision by a drunk driver when I was only 13. That being said, I do not support DUI check points. I will not give up my liberty for a little temporary security.

[Smith]

Bender, you're putting the cart before the horse. Using that logic man is god and you are arguing socialism. Accepting the idea that there are absolutes of right and wrong that extend beyond man, regardless of the source, is the central and guiding ideology of our forefathers and the Constitution, Declaration, and every other founding concept of this country. Now, who or what you think is the source can be debated but when folks say "God given rights" they are correctly identifying that rights and freedom are not dependent on government or man but only protected and preserved by man and government.

As to the roadblocks I don't have a huge issue with it, but I don't like it on a fundamental basis. I see them the same way as I see statistical policing. It has proven ineffectual and costly to other methods.

[Fallguy]

When was the last time they passed a drinking law? Seems ignored. Hell,the sell cases of beer at GAS STATIONS!

I don't think drinking is a God given right. I have no problem if they ban it.

Better yet,get rid if the HCP but require a permit to buy or be in possession of alchohol.

Drinking make me happy....seems I've read somewhere about the right to pursue happiness...

Now I'm not saying people should drive drunk etc....

[hornett22]

Drinking make me happy....seems I've read somewhere about the right to pursue happiness...

Now I'm not saying people should drive drunk etc....

I have no problem with drinking if done responsibly. Just seems more dangerous and less regulated than guns.