Security Guard shot at private club, gunman wounded

[Guest WyattEarp]

I'm surprised no one posted this up back in September, but I was hanging out with some friends last at their house last night and overheard them and some of their other friends talking about it.

Guard, gunman shot at club - WSMV Channel 4

Security guards in shoot-out were unlicensed - WSMV Channel 4

both security guards were not licensed, but were carrying. So in that case can they be charged with anything? or since the guy shot first is it a defense to prosecution?

[Guest goomba]

I'm not sure about criminal charges, but they & the club can get some hefty fines. IIRC if all they did at the club was check ID's then they would be OK. but as soon as they do anything security related, they must have at the minimum an unarmed guard card. if they work directly for the club, then the club has to have a proprietary security lic from the state, basically all they have to do is provide the state with proof of insurance and agree to hire only TN licensed security guards.

with them being armed, but not licensed they are going to get hit with some serious fines. In TN you're HCP does not allow you to work as an armed guard, you have to have the armed guard license in order to carry a handgun while working as a security guard.

Edited October 30, 2011 by goomba

[Guest WyattEarp]

another more recent article/video

the shooter has been charged with attempted criminal homicide, and 6 counts of aggravated assault. damn.

Club doorman called hero for protecting patrons in shootout - WSMV Channel 4

[mikegideon]

He wasn't acting as a security guard. He was just defending himself.

[Guest WyattEarp]

im sure that will be his defense attorney's argument in the event that he or the other security guard face any charges, but the fact of the matter is, he's hired security, he was working at the time of the shooting, he was armed, and he wasn't licensed. but so far neither one has been charged.

I'm sure the club will face some stiff fines. After this, it'd probably be in the clubs interest to hire licensed armed security guards for safety purposes, and to have a state license to have armed security working at the club.

[mikegideon]

Who knows. Do bouncers need a license? Doormen?. Bar tenders? I've seen all of the above bust some heads when the need arose. No law against being armed if you have a permit. Not saying it won't happen... just saying it might not.

[Fallguy]

Who knows. Do bouncers need a license? Doormen?. Bar tenders? I've seen all of the above bust some heads when the need arose. No law against being armed if you have a permit. Not saying it won't happen... just saying it might not.

Yeah...I never have for sure understood where the line is between someone who may just be "keeping the peace" at a place and someone who is "security" that should be licensed.

Remember before 39-17-1305 was repealed there was an exception for someone responsible for protecting the place...it didn't say anything about licensed security guards.

There is a posting on the TFAs Facebook page about a Legislative Legal team saying in their opinion that self organized "security teams" at a church didn't need any kind of license. So it's ok if your protecting church patrons but not those a strip club? Well...it is the buckle of the bible belt, isn't it?...lol

[Guest WyattEarp]

Yeah...I never have for sure understood where the line is between someone who may just be "keeping the peace" at a place and someone who is "security" that should be licensed.

Remember before 39-17-1305 was repealed there was an exception for someone responsible for protecting the place...it didn't say anything about licensed security guards.

There is a posting on the TFAs Facebook page about a Legislative Legal team saying in their opinion that self organized "security teams" at a church didn't need any kind of license. So it's ok if your protecting church patrons but not those a strip club? Well...it is the buckle of the bible belt, isn't it?...lol

actually Menages is a swingers club and is considered a private club and not a sexually oriented business, because they charge a membership fee, they are not open to the general public, you have to fill out an application form, and pay a door fee which then means they are not classified as a "Sexually Oriented Business". People pay the club (membership fee + door fee) for the use of their building. They bring their own alcohol, and they are not exchanging money for sex, and the people that frequent the place are not "employees". According to the club's website, they only serve soda and juice, and sell water and Red Bull.

Menages Club Nashville TN Swingers Party Palace

here's an interesting (yet very descriptive and colorful article on the difference between a strip club and a swingers club) that I found when I was searching for the story on google, that explains the difference.

Why Lap Dances In Nashville Are Illegal But Group Sex Isn’t | Cover Story | Nashville Scene

more on definitions and classifications of sexual oriented business and legal requirements.

Knowledgebase-Adult Business Ordinance

7-51-1102 - Part definitions. :: 2010 Tennessee Code :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia

Armed Security Requirements (Individual)

Private Protective Services - Armed Security Officer/Guard Requirements

Business requirements for having armed security

Private Protective Services - Armed Security Officer/Guard Requirements

62-35-123 - Notice to commissioner prior to acting as proprietary security organization. :: 2010 Tennessee Code :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia

62-35-123. Notice to commissioner prior to acting as proprietary security organization.

(a) It is unlawful for any person to act as a proprietary security organization without first having notified the commissioner in writing. The notice shall include:

(1) The full name and business address of the proprietary security organization;

(2) The full name and the business and residence addresses of the qualifying manager; and

(3) Other information that the commissioner may reasonably require.

( Notwithstanding the requirements of subsection (a), a hospital that employs only unarmed security guards/officers may voluntarily elect to submit to the requirements for a proprietary security organization under this chapter and evidence the election by filing with the commissioner the notice required in subsection (a). The notice is revocable by the hospital at any time upon appropriate notice of revocation.

I don't know, they might have a good argument with the churches not needing to have licensed security, since they are a private club.

[Fallguy]

Ok Ok...I didn't really know for sure...just made an assumption by the name. But after you mentioned it I guess I do remember hearing about them from somewhere.....

There are several exemptions to 62-35-123 in 62-35-103, so many in fact not sure I understand all of them. I've always wondered about those people in Yellow Shirts with the word "Security" on them that you may see at any event (not talking about large venues like LP field, Bridgestone Arena etc...) with a gathering of people.

They may fall into one of the exemptions in 62-35-103 if I looked a bit further. But one thing I did notice...on almost all (if not all) of them that they may fall into...it said, "unarmed". So I get the feeling if you are armed and are providing security you may need be licensed...again unless your church, although that is not mentioned in 62-35-103.

[mikegideon]

I've seen every employee in a bar jump into a fight. It would be real hard to define someone as "security" if they have other primary duties, especially when every employee may have to control an idiot at times. Event security is much better defined, even though it may be exempt from licensing requirements.

[TMF]

Well do you even need a HCP if you are carrying at a private business that allows for you to carry? For example, every gun shop I go into all the employees are carrying. If I worked at a business that allowed carrying of weapons for safety (liquor store/stop and rob/gun shop) would I even need a HCP since I have the permission of the property owner?

[Dolomite_supafly]

Well do you even need a HCP if you are carrying at a private business that allows for you to carry? For example, every gun shop I go into all the employees are carrying. If I worked at a business that allowed carrying of weapons for safety (liquor store/stop and rob/gun shop) would I even need a HCP since I have the permission of the property owner?

No, you are acting on behalf of the owner/agent. Now if you do something stupid (not saying you will) the owner/agent can be held responsible for your actions.

Dolomite

[Fallguy]

Well do you even need a HCP if you are carrying at a private business that allows for you to carry? For example, every gun shop I go into all the employees are carrying. If I worked at a business that allowed carrying of weapons for safety (liquor store/stop and rob/gun shop) would I even need a HCP since I have the permission of the property owner?

IMO No But others have argued that the "Place of Business" exemption was just for those that owned/ran the business.

However...and you may know this...in the OP it was the fact that they didn't have Security Guard Licenses not that they didn't have HCPs that was being pointed out.

[monkeylizard]

EDIT - Nevermind...What they said.

[Guest nysos]

I've seen every employee in a bar jump into a fight. It would be real hard to define someone as "security" if they have other primary duties, especially when every employee may have to control an idiot at times. Event security is much better defined, even though it may be exempt from licensing requirements.

At one of the bars I used to frequent, only on 3 nights out of the week did they have a dedicated door guy that would be responsible for carding people coming in and asking people to leave if they start causing a problem. Most of the staff at said bar were primarily female, and smaller of stature (I think maybe 3 guys, besides the owner worked there). So it wouldn't be uncommon for a few of my friends and myself to be asked to help one of the girls ask someone to leave. It never got to the point where we were needed, and we never actually walked up in a group, we just stood off to the side and kept an eye on them, but that is the type of bar it was. The bar appreciated its regulars and we helped out, most of the people that worked there ended up being in our actual circle of friends and would come to our cookouts and whatnot. Just like sometimes on a busy night if you only had 1 drink, it wouldn't be uncommon for it to get compensated just because "it's too much trouble to ring up just the 1, (*wink*).

[TMF]

However...and you may know this...in the OP it was the fact that they didn't have Security Guard Licenses not that they didn't have HCPs that was being pointed out.

Right, I saw someone post a comment regarding not having a HCP. I'm not familiar with the security guard licensing requirements, but if the guy was a dishwasher covering down on door duty (which is common at some places) I would think that enough grey area would exist to keep the person firing in self defense and the business out of legal trouble.

[Makiaveli]

IMO No But others have argued that the "Place of Business" exemption was just for those that owned/ran the business.

However...and you may know this...in the OP it was the fact that they didn't have Security Guard Licenses not that they didn't have HCPs that was being pointed out.

Would it make a difference if the business was privately owned vs a corporation? There is no law against me carrying a gun on your property (with your permission etc), so unless spelled out otherwise, wouldn't it be legal for me to carry a gun at a business you owned?

Or am I missing something?

[Fallguy]

Would it make a difference if the business was privately owned vs a corporation? There is no law against me carrying a gun on your property (with your permission etc), so unless spelled out otherwise, wouldn't it be legal for me to carry a gun at a business you owned?

Or am I missing something?

Well there are two situations.....If you work there or if you are just there as my friend/guest etc....

As far as if you work there...which is what was being discussed...is it "your" place of business and therefore meaning you don't need a HCP? IMO Yes...in some others, No.

If you are on my private property with my permission (business or not)....IMO you don't need a HCP, just like you don't need one when you are at the gun range etc... But I've not seen being on someone else's private property directly addressed in the TCA

[TMF]

It just sounds to me like the business and the self-defense shooter shouldn't have any legal troubles unless the shooter was operating as an armed guard without licensing to do so.

For example, if I open a convenience store and hire an employee who asks if he can carry for self-defense I can allow that without violating any law. Now, if I hire that employee under the condition that possessing a firearm on duty is a part of the job description then I would need to satisfy certain licensing requirements, yes?

[Makiaveli]

Well there are two situations.....If you work there or if you are just there as my friend/guest etc....

As far as if you work there...which is what was being discussed...is it "your" place of business and therefore meaning you don't need a HCP? IMO Yes...in some others, No.

If you are on my private property with my permission (business or not)....IMO you don't need a HCP, just like you don't need one when you are at the gun range etc... But I've not seen being on someone else's private property directly addressed in the TCA

Thanks for the answer. All this reminds me of why I am a Libertarian....laws just make criminals out of "law-abiding" citizens when they can't understand the *deleted* laws.

[Fallguy]

It just sounds to me like the business and the self-defense shooter shouldn't have any legal troubles unless the shooter was operating as an armed guard without licensing to do so.

For example, if I open a convenience store and hire an employee who asks if he can carry for self-defense I can allow that without violating any law. Now, if I hire that employee under the condition that possessing a firearm on duty is a part of the job description then I would need to satisfy certain licensing requirements, yes?

I think that is the question....

When do you become a "guard" and when are you someone that does other things but also if the SHTF also try to keep the peace and protect others?