How to accomplish this goal?

[Guest PapaB]

From a post in another forum on TGO,

Without getting into who...I agree there are some that may not need to be able to carry in public. But I think the government should have to prove they are not worthy instead of us proving we are.

If it was truly a right, as it should be...then we should have it automatically...and only after the government has shown cause should they be able to take it away.

I like this idea but don't know how to accomplish it. You can't automatically give a permit to everyone and then take it from those that aren't qualified, the sheeple would go nuts. You can't connect it to the drivers license, not everybody has one. It seems to be like trying to prove a negative.

So, who has ideas they think would work to accomplish this? How would you identify who has lost the right and who hasn't? Do you simply think they should drop the class requirement, lower the cost and keep the permits with the background checks? If you have a better idea, please share it. Maybe we can come up with something to press our Legislators on.

[Oh Shoot]

... You can't automatically give a permit to everyone and then take it from those that aren't qualified, the sheeple would go nuts. You can't connect it to the drivers license, not everybody has one. It seems to be like trying to prove a negative. ...

The four states that have total constitutional carry (open and concealed), require no permits at all. Three of them issue permits mainly for recognition purposes in other states, although I think the permit is required in Arizona to carry in bars or some such.

Many states have constitutional open carry.

In either case, no permits are required at all -- the documentation part of your issue is what needs to go.

- OS

[DaveTN]

It’s a right or it’s not. Right now Tennessee does not recognize a right to bear arms and makes no bones about it.

I think we have the best system you can hope for short of becoming the 5^th state to recognize carry as a right. The only problem with it is that many people who desperately need it; can’t afford it.

Should the state ever recognize carry as a right there should be no requirement to “qualifyâ€. It would be up to you to know when and where you could carry and what the laws are concerning the threat of force or the use of deadly force.

Will Tennessee ever allow everyone to strap on a gun and walk down the street legally? I doubt it.

[Mike.357]

I should be able to carry without permit in any manner I see fit, ie: OC or CC. So shouuld everyone else. Commit a crime with a gun on you ( not talking about simple driving violations) and you get popped for carrying and being a criminal. Get jail time.

If I want to buy a gun I should be able to hand over cash or CC and make the purchase. So should everyone else. Again if you commit a crime while possessing a gun you got to jail, no ifs ands or butts.

It is very clear that criminals find guns to buy in one manner or another. The current laws only slow down the honest law abiding citizens. They don't prevent anyone from having a gun.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Mike.357

[Fallguy]

I too have to go with no type of permit if it truly was a right.

I understand that would create a problem on how do you determine if someone is a felon or otherwise not able to lawfully carry and I don't really have an answer.

[Caster]

It's a beautiful idea....if it were a hundred years ago. Nowa days it's like Lot searching Gomorrah for righteous people. How many competent people do you think you could find out of a random gathering of 100 people. If anyone thinks that number is high, they are deluded. People are dumber than they ever have been. Scary thought, just how stupid the public is.

I don't want ANY government involvement in anything in my life. Tin foil hats aside, the power wielded by the feds scares me. The sheer stupidity of the public scares me even more.

You know, it'd be an easy thing to do it like a drivers license. You can drive any kind of car you can afford if you have a license. SO, pass a course for ownership. We are all willing to do it for a carry permit. SO, any licensee can own anything he/she wants, carry it whatever. No more NFA, no registration of weapons, nothing. Competent citizens that have a license can have anything they can afford. Hmph, this wouldn't work either, stupid people are sneaky.

Edited October 30, 2011 by Caster

[DaveTN]

I too have to go with no type of permit if it truly was a right.

I understand that would create a problem on how do you determine if someone is a felon or otherwise not able to lawfully carry and I don't really have an answer.

Why would that be anymore of a problem than it is now? They run the risk of encountering the Police the same way anyone else does, seeing a known felon in possession is PC for a stop and arrest. They also run the risk of someone turning them in.

If I remember correctly recent legislation was passed that makes a felon in possession mandatory prison time.

If a convicted felon wants a gun they will get one; they can buy it right here. I don’t think that needs to be a concern when dealing with the rights of law abiding citizens.

[mikegideon]

I should be able to carry without permit in any manner I see fit, ie: OC or CC. So shouuld everyone else. Commit a crime with a gun on you ( not talking about simple driving violations) and you get popped for carrying and being a criminal. Get jail time.

If I want to buy a gun I should be able to hand over cash or CC and make the purchase. So should everyone else. Again if you commit a crime while possessing a gun you got to jail, no ifs ands or butts.

It is very clear that criminals find guns to buy in one manner or another. The current laws only slow down the honest law abiding citizens. They don't prevent anyone from having a gun.

This. The laws don't work.

[Fallguy]

Why would that be anymore of a problem than it is now? They run the risk of encountering the Police the same way anyone else does, seeing a known felon in possession is PC for a stop and arrest. They also run the risk of someone turning them in.

If I remember correctly recent legislation was passed that makes a felon in possession mandatory prison time.

If a convicted felon wants a gun they will get one; they can buy it right here. I don’t think that needs to be a concern when dealing with the rights of law abiding citizens.

Well I just meant for a LEO being able to find out easily about lawful carry as it is now if they didn't know someone was a felon...but you are right nothing prevents felons from getting a firearm now if they really want it.

I also agree that if it was truly a right...then some may have them that shouldn't...but that is just the way it would be. I guess as it is now in VT, AK, AZ and WY.

[DaveTN]

It is very clear that criminals find guns to buy in one manner or another. The current laws only slow down the honest law abiding citizens. They don't prevent anyone from having a gun.

Becoming a Constitutional Carry state would not make it any easier for law abiding citizens or anyone else to buy a buy through a dealer; FFL’s still do background checks.

[DaveTN]

I also agree that if it was truly a right...then some may have them that shouldn't...but that is just the way it would be. I guess as it is now in VT, AK, AZ and WY.

HCP requirements in this state are a joke. We all have stories of people that have HCP that shouldn’t. Even if it’s a right to carry, the state could still require the class for anyone wanting an HCP so they could carry in other states.

Think about this… most of the negligent shootings we see posted aren’t from inexperience; they are from experienced gun owners becoming complacent and doing something stupid.

[Guest PapaB]

IMO Constitutional carry in TN would require more than changing the minds of legislators. Remember how many LEO's supported vetoing the restaurant carry bill? We'd have to fight public perception, LE hierarchy and liberal politicians. I don't see that happening in my lifetime. I see the best path to that goal as one that whittles away at the restrictions.

I understand everyones frustration but you can't get directly from here to there instantly without some cataclysmic event to change the sheeples minds.

If we can't answer the original question, we may not be able to find that path to true Constitutional carry. If you think about it, most gun owners want some responsible restrictions on the right to carry. Who wants pre-schoolers packing? Anybody vote for the mentally ill to carry? Perhaps we should arm convicted criminals while in jail or prison. I don't think many of us, upon reflection, would want unrestricted carry, just unrestricted carry for most. So any ideas on how to get from here to there?

[TMF]

1. Get very rich.

2. Buy the media.

3. Tell people what their opinions are.

Bottom line, changing public perception on a grand scale is impossible with the news media being so biased against firearms. People are so bombarded by stories of gangland and school shootings that it isn't such a big leap for them to think that it's the firearms that cause the problem, not the perpetrators or the manner in which they acquired their weapons. The people who are able to interpret that information and develop rational opinions are people that have been around firearms their whole life and aren't scared by them.

I hate being doom and gloom, but we can't make people be educated or comfortable with firearms, especially people who have no desire to do so.

[Fallguy]

Yeah....I'm afraid trying to get Constitutional Carry in TN anytime soon would be like going from the Wright Brothers first flight to flying the Concord in a couple of days. It's just going to take a while, if ever, to get there, unless something major was to happen.

I could be wrong, but I think the rancher getting killed in AZ possibly by an illegal is what pushed over there...of course OC without a permit was already legal, so not as a big a step.

Perhaps allowing OC without a permit would be a first step...but I don't see that being easy to pass either. I mean the inside of you occupied car is just like your house in the presumption of fear if someone is breaking in...but in general you still can't have a firearm in your car without a permit.

[hornett22]

IMO Constitutional carry in TN would require more than changing the minds of legislators. Remember how many LEO's supported vetoing the restaurant carry bill? We'd have to fight public perception, LE hierarchy and liberal politicians. I don't see that happening in my lifetime. I see the best path to that goal as one that whittles away at the restrictions.

I understand everyones frustration but you can't get directly from here to there instantly without some cataclysmic event to change the sheeples minds.

If we can't answer the original question, we may not be able to find that path to true Constitutional carry. If you think about it, most gun owners want some responsible restrictions on the right to carry. Who wants pre-schoolers packing? Anybody vote for the mentally ill to carry? Perhaps we should arm convicted criminals while in jail or prison. I don't think many of us, upon reflection, would want unrestricted carry, just unrestricted carry for most. So any ideas on how to get from here to there?

I never thought I'd see carry permits or open carry in Michigan in my lifetime. One of the reasons I left and moved back here in '99. I think a year or two later all that changed. I'm still shocked to this day.

I'm all for no restrictions but if Michigan can progress,anything is possible.

To be honest,we are the only ones holding ourselves back.

[DaveTN]

Perhaps allowing OC without a permit would be a first step...but I don't see that being easy to pass either. I mean the inside of you occupied car is just like your house in the presumption of fear if someone is breaking in...but in general you still can't have a firearm in your car without a permit.

I think possession of a loaded firearm in your car without requiring a permit should be the next big step.

[daddyo]

Back in the 18th century, there was no permit system and there were no "gun-free" killing zones. I am unable to find any instances of mass killings in schools or any other public venue.

That tells me that today we have a societal problem and not a gun problem.

I believe we should be able to carry anywhere without a permit.

[Jonnin]

From a post in another forum on TGO, I like this idea but don't know how to accomplish it. You can't automatically give a permit to everyone and then take it from those that aren't qualified, the sheeple would go nuts. You can't connect it to the drivers license, not everybody has one. It seems to be like trying to prove a negative. So, who has ideas they think would work to accomplish this? How would you identify who has lost the right and who hasn't? Do you simply think they should drop the class requirement, lower the cost and keep the permits with the background checks? If you have a better idea, please share it. Maybe we can come up with something to press our Legislators on.

Give everyone over 18 the right, and take it away only for clear cut reasons, such as conviction of a violent crime. Lots of temporary loss of rights, such as under the influence of anything (legal or not), restraining order against, and so on. 4 of 5 psych/mental doctors selected at random give the same diagnosis for the person and agree the person is a danger to self/others (temporary, re-eval yearly at patient's request). More than 5 individuals have reported the person as a threat (prompts investigation). Those sorts of things. The only issue is keeping a database up to date. I know you said it would not work, but it has worked already. Open carry states have this work every day. Concealed or open is no different -- everyone who wants to be is armed in those states and the problems yapped about by the anti gunners have not happened. At the end of the day the constitution says we can keep (own, is how I see this word in this context) and bear (carry on one's person) arms (anything from a knife or stick to a machine gun and more) in the militia (anyone over age 18 under one of the current definations, or anyone who could either be drafted or volunteer for military service). Anyone who says otherwise agrees to limitations on the right to vote, free speech, and the rest --- if they agree to that, they would agree to a new law that in order to vote you have to go through the same hoops that are required to purchase a handgun!

[1gewehr]

This can be accomplished the same way EVERY change in the law is accomplished; ceaseless, active contact with your elected representatives telling them what you want. If enough folks ask enough congresscritters the same thing enough times, enough of them will eventually get the hint and pass it. The Governor is against the idea, but the TFA has him on the record (video) as saying if the legislature puts it on his desk, he will sign it.

The Legislature short-changed us last session. They know it, we know it. That means that we have a bit of an opportunity this year to push for our agenda in return for support. In twelve short months, there will be another election. It doesn't hurt to remind them of that.

There is a LOT of data out now on non-permit concealed carry. Surprise, surprise, surprise! Violent crime rates go DOWN in states that have it! Imagine that! Who would have ever thought that criminals would be bothered by armed victims? It is getting more and more difficult to defend gun control as the facts are ALL against it.

[Fallguy]

I think possession of a loaded firearm in your car without requiring a permit should be the next big step.

I agree.

...unfortunatelly...it will be a bigger step to accomplish than it will be in actually moving forward...but every step counts.

[Mike.357]

Becoming a Constitutional Carry state would not make it any easier for law abiding citizens or anyone else to buy a buy through a dealer; FFL’s still do background checks.

Easy, fix. Dump the background check. Give jail time to anyone possessing a gun and committing a crime.

[TMF]

I agree with Constitutional carry for Tennessee, but I just don't think that our elected officials are willing to put themselves out there to promote it due to the panicked masses who allow themselves to be manipulated by the culture of gun fear the media has created. Those panicked masses vote too and I think they outnumber us.

[daddyo]

I agree with Constitutional carry for Tennessee, but I just don't think that our elected officials are willing to put themselves out there to promote it due to the panicked masses who allow themselves to be manipulated by the culture of gun fear the media has created. Those panicked masses vote too and I think they outnumber us.

If they outnumber us, then how did we ever end up with HCPs and the Restaurant Carry Law?

[TMF]

If they outnumber us, then how did we ever end up with HCPs and the Restaurant Carry Law?

True. Maybe I've just lost all hope in people's ability to form reasonable opinions on their own.

[G27]

I think possession of a loaded firearm in your car without requiring a permit should be the next big step.

That's a great idea.