Background Check

[thefinder808]

Is there a general consensus on whether or not having non stalking misdemeanors on your record slow down the HCP background check process? I have two misdemeanors from 7 years ago, one simple possession (magic mushrooms), and one paraphernalia. Yes yes I know it was really stupid, I had just turned 18 and was being an idiot. It was an isolated incident and I never missed my probation meetings (1 year of probation) and paid all the fines. I was told it would be expunged after I finished paying. Who knows if they really got expunged or not, I've heard TN isn't really good about doing that. So is it going to take seventeen years for me to get my HCP or should that not matter?

Also I have a neighbor that told me he was thinking about getting an HCP. He's told me some stories that led me to believe he might have had some trouble with the law when he was younger so I asked him if had any felonies, he replied yes that he had three which had been expunged and he's never had a problem with gun purchase background checks. I told him he probably wouldn't be able to get one, what do you guys think?

TheFinder

[TMF]

Arrested for shrooms?

"Officer, these are for culinary purposes only... saw it on Racheal Ray."

[Makiaveli]

Unless I've been lied to, you can get a copy of your criminal history. There is a small fee. I don't have my cell handy or I would give you the number, but just look up the number for the Criminal Justice Center they can transfer you. That way you will know if the record was expunged or not.

Not revealing any secrets, but some have slipped through the cracks.

[hornett22]

you should be fine.

everything I have had expunged has been. never had an issue.

[DaveTN]

You shouldn’t have any problems as long as your charges show a disposition.

For your neighbor it depends on what his felony convictions were for. If he was convicted of “burglary, any felony offense involving violence, or use of a firearm, or any felony drug offense involving a Schedule I, II, III, IV, or V controlled substance†it doesn’t matter if they were expunged or not, he won’t be approved if they show up.

[Timestepper]

I guess this thread raises a question for me: Roughly 20 years ago, while in a truck stop in Des Moines, Ia., I had a weird reaction to an over-the-counter sleeping aid. Long story short, I ended up for s short stay (less than 48 hours) in a local mental facility for observation as a "suspected attempted suicide." Is this going to disqualify me from obtaining a HCP?

[DaveTN]

I guess this thread raises a question for me: Roughly 20 years ago, while in a truck stop in Des Moines, Ia., I had a weird reaction to an over-the-counter sleeping aid. Long story short, I ended up for s short stay (less than 48 hours) in a local mental facility for observation as a "suspected attempted suicide." Is this going to disqualify me from obtaining a HCP?

It depends on whether you voluntarily signed yourself in or the cops got an involuntary commitment.

When I was a cop we gave people with those types of problems the choice or voluntary commitment or we would deal with it. Even though it was voluntary they could not leave for 72 hours once they signed themselves in.

QUESTION 13(A) – Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective or have you been committed to or hospitalized in a mental institution?

Under 2009 Public Chapter 578, effective January 1, 2010, the applicant should answer ‘yes’ if he or she has been judicially committed to or hospitalized in a mental institution pursuant to title 33 (otherwise known as ‘involuntary commitment’).

An applicant who was voluntarily committed is legally able to answer ‘no’ to Questions 13(A).

A person who was judicially/involuntarily committed and who answers ‘no’ to Question 13(A) is making a false statement under penalty of perjury.

T.C.A.§39-17-1351© (12) That the applicant has not been adjudicated as a mental defective, has not been judicially committed to or hospitalized in a mental institution pursuant to title 33, has not had a court appoint a conservator for the applicant by reason of a mental defect, has not been judicially determined to be disabled by reason of mental illness, developmental disability or other mental incapacity, and has not, within seven (7) years from the date of application, been found by a court to pose an immediate substantial likelihood of serious harm, as defined in title 33, chapter 6, part 5, because of mental illness;

[Guest twpayne75]

It is my opinion based on a couple incedents that if you can purchase a handgun, you can get a HCP.

The reason I say this is because I know people that own some gun shops. Me and one of them were talking one day. I was told that they have had people come in and get denied on the background check, only to get mad and show them their HCP. Apparently the check on purchase is more than the permit. She said it happens a few times a year.

Based on what I have seen, if you can purchase a gun you can get your HCP.

[Reservoir Dog]

Apparently the check on purchase is more than the permit.

No. The check for the permit is much more in-depth. A TICS/NICS check is nothing more than a computer records check based on the information submitted. A check for the HCP is all that, plus your fingerprints are run to check for any criminal record. A fingerprint search is much more reliable than a simple computer check based on name/DOB/SSN.

When someone with a HCP gets denied, more than likely it is a mistake (some bad guy has a similar name, DOB or SSN). These denials are usually overturned rather quickly.

[Timestepper]

It depends on whether you voluntarily signed yourself in or the cops got an involuntary commitment.

When I was a cop we gave people with those types of problems the choice or voluntary commitment or we would deal with it. Even though it was voluntary they could not leave for 72 hours once they signed themselves in.

See, that's the thing, I don't even remember most of the "event." In a nutshell, I had taken an over-the-counter sleeping aid to help with a migraine, but instead of helping me sleep, it caused me to "brown-out." In other words, I wasn't asleep, but neither was I cognizant of what I was doing - kinda' like sleep walking. I doubt that I actually requested to be taken there, but during one of the few periods of lucidity, I remember signing something which might have been an admission form. I do know that once I regained my faculties and explained what had happened, they treated it as if it were no big deal and I left the next day when my wife arrived to pick me up (my eye glasses having been left in the truck, I couldn't see well enough to leave on my own). I do know that whatever forms there were to sign upon leaving, I signed myself so it's not as though I were released to her or anything.

It is my opinion based on a couple incedents that if you can purchase a handgun, you can get a HCP.

The reason I say this is because I know people that own some gun shops. Me and one of them were talking one day. I was told that they have had people come in and get denied on the background check, only to get mad and show them their HCP. Apparently the check on purchase is more than the permit. She said it happens a few times a year.

Based on what I have seen, if you can purchase a gun you can get your HCP.

That's the other thing - having been a rather rabid muzzle loading enthusiast for many years, it's been years since I've purchased a modern firearm from anywhere other than a private citizen. I don't have many guns, but those I have generally have a lifetime home, if they prove to be of any quality at all.

To tell the truth, the only real reason I'm interested in obtaining a HCP is so that I can legally carry when I'm fishing, camping or wondering in the woods. As a truck driver, I'm not allowed to carry while in the truck and I've been some pretty rough places in the past couple of decades and never had any trouble that a winch bar, a well thrown rock or an unexpected kick to the groin couldn't take care of. BUT it's nice to have something other than a stick or a rock when one unexpectedly encounters a snake (slithering or walking), bobcat, etc... In short, it'd be nice to do legally, with a modern handgun what I generally do now (maybe not so legally) with my old Remington Buffalo black powder revolver.

...TS...

[DaveTN]

See, that's the thing, I don't even remember most of the "event." In a nutshell, I had taken an over-the-counter sleeping aid to help with a migraine, but instead of helping me sleep, it caused me to "brown-out." In other words, I wasn't asleep, but neither was I cognizant of what I was doing - kinda' like sleep walking. I doubt that I actually requested to be taken there, but during one of the few periods of lucidity, I remember signing something which might have been an admission form. I do know that once I regained my faculties and explained what had happened, they treated it as if it were no big deal and I left the next day when my wife arrived to pick me up (my eye glasses having been left in the truck, I couldn't see well enough to leave on my own). I do know that whatever forms there were to sign upon leaving, I signed myself so it's not as though I were released to her or anything.

That's the other thing - having been a rather rabid muzzle loading enthusiast for many years, it's been years since I've purchased a modern firearm from anywhere other than a private citizen. I don't have many guns, but those I have generally have a lifetime home, if they prove to be of any quality at all.

To tell the truth, the only real reason I'm interested in obtaining a HCP is so that I can legally carry when I'm fishing, camping or wondering in the woods. As a truck driver, I'm not allowed to carry while in the truck and I've been some pretty rough places in the past couple of decades and never had any trouble that a winch bar, a well thrown rock or an unexpected kick to the groin couldn't take care of. BUT it's nice to have something other than a stick or a rock when one unexpectedly encounters a snake (slithering or walking), bobcat, etc... In short, it'd be nice to do legally, with a modern handgun what I generally do now (maybe not so legally) with my old Remington Buffalo black powder revolver.

...TS...

Apply for a C&R (Curio & Relics FFL). It cost $30 and goes through an ATF background check. If you get it, you will probably get an HCP. If you don’t pass they will tell you why and what to do. That’s probably as cheap as paying for background checks and a heck of a lot cheaper than being turned down on an HCP application. Plus if you pass you will have a C&R license.

Perjury requires intent. As far as you know you were voluntarily committed (otherwise you couldn’t have simply walked out), which is probably what happened. I doubt it will show up anywhere unless someone knew about it and was specifically looking for it.

[Reservoir Dog]

As a truck driver, I'm not allowed to carry while in the truck....

Why? Does your company have a policy against carry?

[Timestepper]

Apply for a C&R (Curio & Relics FFL). It cost $30 and goes through an ATF background check. If you get it, you will probably get an HCP. If you don’t pass they will tell you why and what to do. That’s probably as cheap as paying for background checks and a heck of a lot cheaper than being turned down on an HCP application. Plus if you pass you will have a C&R license.

Perjury requires intent. As far as you know you were voluntarily committed (otherwise you couldn’t have simply walked out), which is probably what happened. I doubt it will show up anywhere unless someone knew about it and was specifically looking for it.

Thanks much! I'm feeling considerably better about things now.

Why? Does your company have a policy against carry?

Not just my company, but in several of the states we run in (Ohio for instance) it's illegal to carry in a Commercial Motor Vehicle. Plus, pulling a flatbed means that I occasionally haul construction materials and/or vehicles onto/out of military bases and they generally kinda' frown upon it.

...TS...

Come to think of it, I've never been employed by a trucking company that didn't have a policy against firearms in the truck, whether legal or otherwise.

...TS...

Edited October 30, 2011 by Timestepper

[Oh Shoot]

Why? Does your company have a policy against carry?

It would be a rare trucking company that doesn't. Even for contract owner operators.

- OS

[Fallguy]

I guess this thread raises a question for me: Roughly 20 years ago, while in a truck stop in Des Moines, Ia., I had a weird reaction to an over-the-counter sleeping aid. Long story short, I ended up for s short stay (less than 48 hours) in a local mental facility for observation as a "suspected attempted suicide." Is this going to disqualify me from obtaining a HCP?

I'm pretty sure that the police checking you in to a mental facility doesn't qualify as "judicially" committed. As that requires going to court and a judge determining you are not qualified to make decisions for yourself. Doesn't sound like that is what happened here.

Also in all honest, I don't think there is any way the DOS would even be able to find this out. Until the law change here, there was no real reporting system her in TN for them to know if someone in this state had been in and/or committed to a mental facility.

[Guest tommy62]

It depends on whether you voluntarily signed yourself in or the cops got an involuntary commitment.

When I was a cop we gave people with those types of problems the choice or voluntary commitment or we would deal with it. Even though it was voluntary they could not leave for 72 hours once they signed themselves in.

Yes. In most states a Certificate of Need (CON) commitment is a mandatory 72 hrs and must have a court order stating the person is at risk of harm to self or others. If someone signs in voluntarily, they can leave at anytime.

Edited October 30, 2011 by tommy62

[BlackHawk93]

I was told it would be expunged after I finished paying. Who knows if they really got expunged or not, I've heard TN isn't really good about doing that. So is it going to take seventeen years for me to get my HCP or should that not matter?

TheFinder

Expungment is not an automatic process that happens after a conviction and time/sentence served/conditions met. Having a family member who works in the courthouse I am aware of how the expungement process goes. After your time has been served, fines paid, and all conditions met, you have to go to the courthouse and pay a fee, usually around $100 and sign a paper and then that is sent to the judge who will sign off on it and then it gets filed, and the records are expunged. So most likely, if you don't remember doing this it very well may not be expunged. The records are public so call the clerk's office and inquire on your case. Most likely you will find out what you need to know.

[Smith]

No. The check for the permit is much more in-depth. A TICS/NICS check is nothing more than a computer records check based on the information submitted. A check for the HCP is all that, plus your fingerprints are run to check for any criminal record. A fingerprint search is much more reliable than a simple computer check based on name/DOB/SSN.

When someone with a HCP gets denied, more than likely it is a mistake (some bad guy has a similar name, DOB or SSN). These denials are usually overturned rather quickly.

Not exactly. The HCP background check only checks the TN records and does not pull the full federal records. We have seen people who just got their permits be denied on a gun purchase. Reason being the TICS check is run on the federal system and covers much more. For instance something shows up in a state other than TN so they get cleared on the permit but denied on the purchase.

As far as expungments go, make sure they get pushed all the way through the Federal system. A lot of denials happen becasue the charge is still pending on the federal level while being expunged on the state level. A lot of lower cost lawyers will only do it half way and not finish the job. This is why a lot of denials get over turned on appeal. It just makes it easier to check both the federal and state records.

[Reservoir Dog]

Not exactly. The HCP background check only checks the TN records and does not pull the full federal records. We have seen people who just got their permits be denied on a gun purchase. Reason being the TICS check is run on the federal system and covers much more. For instance something shows up in a state other than TN so they get cleared on the permit but denied on the purchase.

You sure about that? According to TDOS, records are checked with TBI, FBI and your county Sheriff. That alone is more than the check to purchase. Also, running your fingerprints should find any criminal record nationwide, if the person was fingerprinted. That is much more than a TICS check.

If that is not the case, then the HCP background process makes no sense. Why would TN ignore criminal records from other states, and let someone carry a handgun who could not even legally purchase a firearm?

[Oh Shoot]

Not exactly. The HCP background check only checks the TN records ...

Not correct.

You sure about that? According to TDOS, records are checked with TBI, FBI and your county Sheriff. ....

Correct.

From TCA, TNDOS will:

"Send one (1) set of the fingerprints received from the department to the federal bureau of investigation, request a federal criminal history record check based upon the fingerprints, as long as the service is available, and send the results of the check to the department."

- OS

[Reservoir Dog]

From TCA, TNDOS will:

"Send one (1) set of the fingerprints received from the department to the federal bureau of investigation, request a federal criminal history record check based upon the fingerprints, as long as the service is available, and send the results of the check to the department."

- OS

That is what I thought.

A fingerprint search is much more accurate than a name/DOB/SSN search. A bad guy can give a false name/DOB/SSN that just happens to be similar (or same) as the firearms purchaser. That more than likely will trigger a denial. A fingerprint search will find any criminal history that is truly associated with that person, since a bad guy can't give another person's fingerprints.

In 99% on the cases, the reason you see a denial on a HCP holder is because TICS/NICS uses the less reliable method of checking a background, so you sometimes get a false positive. That is the reason why they have a HCP, but still get denied (initially) for a firearm purchase: the HCP background is more in-depth and accurate, therefore they see past the info that gives that false positive.

[Fallguy]

What Reservoir Dog and OhShoot said.....

[Smith]

That is what I thought.

A fingerprint search is much more accurate than a name/DOB/SSN search. A bad guy can give a false name/DOB/SSN that just happens to be similar (or same) as the firearms purchaser. That more than likely will trigger a denial. A fingerprint search will find any criminal history that is truly associated with that person, since a bad guy can't give another person's fingerprints.

In 99% on the cases, the reason you see a denial on a HCP holder is because TICS/NICS uses the less reliable method of checking a background, so you sometimes get a false positive. That is the reason why they have a HCP, but still get denied (initially) for a firearm purchase: the HCP background is more in-depth and accurate, therefore they see past the info that gives that false positive.

That's incorrect. The state only checks with the TBI and the local sherriffs office for HCP permits. The TICS is run through the FBI's database system. Not sure how those have different information, but this would not be the first time cross refrencing information across agencies has been faulty and ineeficient.

TN Code: 39-17-1351

Accroding to the TN code nothing is sent out of state. One set of fingerprints stays with the Sheriffs dept. and the other with the TBI.

Read the above code and then compare to the TICS check:

[h=3]TBI Instant Check System (TICS)[/h]In response to the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act, the Tennessee State Legislature incorporated the federal legislation into the Tennessee gun transfer statute with an amendment. The TBI Instant Check System (TICS) began operation on November 1, 1998. This amendment requires that TBI establish and maintain a background check system that meets or exceeds the requirements established by the Brady Act for continuing recipient background checks on all firearm transactions except those specifically excluded by law.

To conduct a background check on an individual before a firearm is purchased in Tennessee, a Federal Firearms Licensee contacts the TBI. The TICS Unit runs a check including a National Instant Check System (NICS) check on a prospective gun purchaser from a licensed firearm dealer or to redeem a firearm from pawn from a licensed firearm dealer. To meet the federal and state requirements, TICS accesses the following databases:

[h=3]Tennessee Criminal History Repository[/h]

File maintained by the TBI and supported by arrest fingerprint cards. Persons who are convicted felons cannot legally possess a firearm.

[h=3]State of Tennessee Orders of Protection[/h]

Data entered, maintained and deleted by Tennessee law enforcement agencies (generally Sheriff’s departments) on persons against whom a restraining order has been issued by a judge. Active protection orders, which meet state or federal laws, will disqualify an individual from obtaining a firearm.

[h=3]National Crime Information Center[/h]

Database maintaining files on wanted persons, protection orders, deported felons, U.S. Secret Service Protective (persons who may pose a threat to the President and/or others afforded protection by the U.S. Secret Service), foreign fugitives, SENTRY File (persons currently under supervision of the Federal Bureau of Prisons), Convicted Person on Supervised Release File and the Convicted Sexual Offender Registry.

[h=3]Interstate Identification Index[/h]

The national repository for criminal history record information.

[h=3]National Instant Check System (NICS)[/h]

The federal instant background check system maintained by the FBI. It houses databases on Denied Persons, Illegal/Unlawful Aliens, Controlled Substance Abusers, Dishonorable Dischargees, Citizenship renunciants and Mental Defectives/Commitments.

[Fallguy]

TICS is for firearms purchases...not HCPs

See 39-17-1351(h)(3)

Upon receipt of the fingerprints from the department, the Tennessee bureau of investigation shall:

Send one (1) set of the fingerprints received from the department to the federal bureau of investigation, request a federal criminal history record check based upon the fingerprints, as long as the service is available, and send the results of the check to the department .

[Smith]

I know the difference. That's what we are taking about. When I read TN code 39-17-1351 there is no (h)(3). The last entry the hcp code is what I referenced above. What am I missing? I talk to these folks and this is also what they have told me directly.