Question.

[IggyBcool]

This happened to me a while back when I was 18 which wasn't a big deal because I was in the gym a lot training and was actually training for a fight at the time, how ever.. I was a victim of road rage. A guy chased me down after literally riding my butt about 6 inches from my bumper and I gave him a slight brake tap to get him to back off so I could get over. He started swerving at me trying to run me off the road and everything else in between. We came to a red light and he got in front of me and blocked me in while I was on the phone with 911 and he took a couple of swings through the window and landed one because I was caught up in the seatbelt. After I got out of the car I got a solid one down the middle on him, doubled him, and then choked him with his own arm and then for good measures I choked him completely out with a guillotine. Now I'm not trying to sound like billy badass, because I was actually a pretty scared. I didn't know if he had a gun or was going to stab me or what. Would this have been justifyable if I would have been carrying to at least draw my weapon?

Another case. I was at work and saw a car come flying through the parking lot with another car hot on his trail. Long story short he was a victim of road rage as well. When the car finally blocked him in, there was three people getting out of the car approaching him and didn't look too nice. But the cops showed up almost immediately after they got out of the car. My question is if the cops wouldn't have been so close behind, things would have turned really ugly really fast for the poor guy. If my case wouldn't justify drawing, would this case?

[wcsc12]

This happened to me a while back when I was 18 which wasn't a big deal because I was in the gym a lot training and was actually training for a fight at the time, how ever.. I was a victim of road rage. A guy chased me down after literally riding my butt about 6 inches from my bumper and I gave him a slight brake tap to get him to back off so I could get over. He started swerving at me trying to run me off the road and everything else in between. We came to a red light and he got in front of me and blocked me in while I was on the phone with 911 and he took a couple of swings through the window and landed one because I was caught up in the seatbelt. After I got out of the car I got a solid one down the middle on him, doubled him, and then choked him with his own arm and then for good measures I choked him completely out with a guillotine. Now I'm not trying to sound like billy badass, because I was actually a pretty scared. I didn't know if he had a gun or was going to stab me or what. Would this have been justifyable if I would have been carrying to at least draw my weapon?

Another case. I was at work and saw a car come flying through the parking lot with another car hot on his trail. Long story short he was a victim of road rage as well. When the car finally blocked him in, there was three people getting out of the car approaching him and didn't look too nice. But the cops showed up almost immediately after they got out of the car. My question is if the cops wouldn't have been so close behind, things would have turned really ugly really fast for the poor guy. If my case wouldn't justify drawing, would this case?

From what I've read, pointing you guy at a person is considered deadly force. Legally, you can only justifiably draw if threatened with deadly force. However, I would personally see no problem with drawing on them to get them to stop as police do it all the time. However, we're not police and don't have the same rights so I wouldn't draw personally. The only thing I would even see as being somewhat conceivable is just lifting up your shirt and putting it over your guy and putting your hand on the weapon. There may still be ramifications for doing this but it could also accelerate the situation.

This is one of those times when OldShoot needs to come in and share his wisdom.

[Oh Shoot]

...This is one of those times when OldShoot needs to come in and share his wisdom.

Flattered but....

Most hypothetical scenarios are quite gray. Will always come down to: were you in reasonable fear of imminent death or serious bodily injury for yourself or those you defend? Just as importantly, will a LEO think so? If he doesn't, will the DA? If he doesn't, will a jury?

- OS

[IggyBcool]

Correct. But the way I see it is if someone is chasing me down, trying to ram me, trying to run me off the road, that is to me possible death i.e. hitting me and I run head on in to traffic, or in to a pole or tree, ect ect. Then to stop and approach me after that.

As to the other case, I feel like that would be justifiable. Its three against one. Who knows what may happen with three of them attacking you at the same time. God knows what may happen to you with three of them after you are unconscious.

In all of the cases provided, not actually discharging but showing that you have felt in fear for you life for you to actually draw in hopes that it ceases the actions.

[DaveTN]

Everyone has to take responsibility for what they do.

There is no special law to charge you with some kind of “deadly Force†charge for pointing a gun at someone; its aggravated assault. And it’s only aggravated assault if the following people, in the following order, don’t think you were justified in what you did… responding Officers, the DA, a Judge or jury.

Being a willing participant in a rage road incident will not end well for you if you shoot an unarmed man. Roll your window up, lock your doors, and drive away. If someone smashes out your windows while they see you pointing a gun at them; shoot.

If you see a person that is in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm; you can act. But if you pull a gun and get involved in something you better be sure of what you are seeing. Those could have been good Samaritans chasing down an armed robber, or they could have been cops, too many ways for that situation to go sideways.

[Guest TnRebel]

In all the states that I know for sure a car -- truck what ever is considered a deadly weapon if used in an aggressive manor ( Road Rage )

[Mike.357]

in the second scenario there is no way I am pulling a gun to defend some guy I don't know from Adam.

Sorry if he is gonna take a whippin but I ain't bankrupting myself or going to prison for some guy I don't know. Especially when I have no idea at all as to why three guys are chasing him.

[Guest peacexxl]

in the second scenario there is no way I am pulling a gun to defend some guy I don't know from Adam.

Sorry if he is gonna take a whippin but I ain't bankrupting myself or going to prison for some guy I don't know. Especially when I have no idea at all as to why three guys are chasing him.

Big +1. Suppose they chased him down because he raped their sister. It wouldn't be legal for them to stomp a hole in the guy, but could you blame them? You just never know so I probably wouldn't get involved.

[Guest peacexxl]

I always wonder about the second part of the statute. Eveyone talks about justifying deadly forcetwith fear of death, but what about the bodily harm part. How severe does the potential bodily harm have to be. If someone is coming at me saying that they are going to kick my ass, I am not in fear of my life but I do fear great bodily harm. I often wonder where the line is, but I think I would rather have a official decide that, than an attacker.

[Oh Shoot]

I always wonder about the second part of the statute. Eveyone talks about justifying deadly forcetwith fear of death, but what about the bodily harm part. How severe does the potential bodily harm have to be....

"39-11-106(34) "Serious bodily injury" means bodily injury that involves:

(A) A substantial risk of death;

( Protracted unconsciousness;

© Extreme physical pain;

(D) Protracted or obvious disfigurement;

(E) Protracted loss or substantial impairment of a function of a bodily member, organ or mental faculty; or

(F) A broken bone of a child who is eight (8) years of age or less;"

- OS

[Fallguy]

OS beat me to the punch this time...

[Oh Shoot]

OS beat me to the punch this time...

Back home on broadband!

- OS

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

In your first example, I wouldnt pull my gun unless I saw that he had a gun also. Pulling on someone who is unarmed is never really a good idea, especially in a road rage situation. Look what happened in Ashland City a few months ago. I would dump a can of pepper spray in his face though if he was punching me through my window.....

In your second example, I wouldnt get involved at all. I might watch & try to be a good witness, but like Mike.357 said, I'm not gonna put myself in a situation where I could be arrested or sued to try & help someone I dont know, especially when I dont have all the information about what is going on at the time. Everyone has the right (& I would say duty) to protect themselves. I'm not a cop. I carry to protect myself & my family, not to get involved in every tussle I see.

[Timestepper]

From what I've read, pointing you guy at a person is considered deadly force. Legally, you can only justifiably draw if threatened with deadly force. However, I would personally see no problem with drawing on them to get them to stop as police do it all the time. However, we're not police and don't have the same rights so I wouldn't draw personally. The only thing I would even see as being somewhat conceivable is just lifting up your shirt and putting it over your guy and putting your hand on the weapon. There may still be ramifications for doing this but it could also accelerate the situation.

This is one of those times when OldShoot needs to come in and share his wisdom.

I read this last night and couldn't figure out, at first, why it bugged me. After thinking about it, I realize it's because it's not about rights so much as privileges.

We, as American citizens, all possess the same and equal rights at birth. Privileges however are accorded to situation and position. Like driving a motor vehicle for instance: Driving is not a right, it's a privilege granted to the majority of the population based upon their ability to demonstrate, through written and driving tests, that they posses the requisite skills to safely operate a motor vehicle. In the case of us truck drivers, operating a big truck may be considered a further privilege based upon our willingness and ability to acquire the skills necessary to obtain and retain a Commercial Drivers License.

Going back to the police having more rights thing, they actually only have more privileges. And those privileges are solely contingent upon their training and experience and position. That is not to say that police officers are not above abusing said privileges, but we hope that this remains the exception rather than the rule.

My apologies for the hijack and to wcsc12 if I misconstrued his comment, but it just kinda' bugged me...

[Makiaveli]

"39-11-106(34) "Serious bodily injury" means bodily injury that involves:

(A) A substantial risk of death;

( Protracted unconsciousness;

© Extreme physical pain;

(D) Protracted or obvious disfigurement;

(E) Protracted loss or substantial impairment of a function of a bodily member, organ or mental faculty; or

(F) A broken bone of a child who is eight (8) years of age or less;"

- OS

Hmm never noticed F on the list.

Anyway, since you can get brain damage from a punch, even though the likelihood ranks up there with winning the lottery, doesn't this boil down to what I see you guys say all the time, IE depends on 1. the cop, 2. the DA etc etc.?

[Oh Shoot]

Hmm never noticed F on the list.

Anyway, since you can get brain damage from a punch, even though the likelihood ranks up there with winning the lottery, doesn't this boil down to what I see you guys say all the time, IE depends on 1. the cop, 2. the DA etc etc.?

Yep, it's never the shooter's ultimate call -- not even inside your home.

- OS

[DaveTN]

Anyway, since you can get brain damage from a punch, even though the likelihood ranks up there with winning the lottery, doesn't this boil down to what I see you guys say all the time, IE depends on 1. the cop, 2. the DA etc etc.?

As someone that has been the responding Officer I can tell you that your involvement is more of a determining factor than whether or not being punched in the face justifies the use of force. If you are brake checking people and flipping them off, and they approach you at a stop light, you better be ready to kick azz or get your azz kicked. If you are a willing participant and you pull a gun; I would take you to jail.

If you are innocent and you are the victim of an unprovoked attacked because someone doesn’t like the way you are driving, that’s a different story.

If you are ever in an incident like that and have to pull a gun, call the Police and wait for them to arrive, even if the other person leaves. The first person to call is the “complainantâ€; the other person is the “suspectâ€. On the way home the other person may realize how bad he screwed up and call the police to make a complaint on you pointing a gun at him. It may be a couple of days before the cops show up at your home or work to arrest you. At that point it’s too late to tell your side of the story.

There is a saying “Don’t let your mouth overload your azzâ€. If you are a willing participant in a conflict and you need a gun to protect yourself against an unarmed man; that is exactly what you have done and it will likely end with you in jail.

[IggyBcool]

in the second scenario there is no way I am pulling a gun to defend some guy I don't know from Adam.

Sorry if he is gonna take a whippin but I ain't bankrupting myself or going to prison for some guy I don't know. Especially when I have no idea at all as to why three guys are chasing him.

No, no. But yes, I would not get involved as a 3rd party. I was refering to first person senario. If that were to happen to me, if I was that guy getting chased down by 3 guys.

[Oh Shoot]

No, no. But yes, I would not get involved as a 3rd party. I was refering to first person senario. If that were to happen to me, if I was that guy getting chased down by 3 guys.

I don't think I'll have any qualms about at least showing my piece in a clear disparity of force situation and I'm counting on common sense to know if I'm dealing with serious contenders. Certainly there are potentially life and death situations defused all over this country every day by folks showing their heaters.

Yeah, worst case short of actually popping caps is aggravated assault, but not likely methinks -- I see a serious beating as justifiable fear for my life, and I don't say that just because I've edged into geezerhood either. In any case, isn't that why we carry? Ultimately better to be facing a court than be maimed for life or worse.

- OS

Edited October 31, 2011 by OhShoot

[Guest 270win]

---

Park as far away from people as possible in parking lots. There are a lot of crazies out there that get in silly crap over a parking spot. Keep distance from your car and others if possible. Stay in your vehicle with windows rolled up and doors locked so that someone cannot get in your vehicle without a lot of force/breaking glass/a weapon. Try to drive away from crazy people if possible. Never get out of your vehicle to fight someone. That looks like you are going towards the fight instead of being cornered and can't run anymore. I would not interfere in someone else's road side fist fight. Again you are going TOWARDS the trouble. Run from trouble in public when you can.

Yes, I know you don't have to retreat technically in Tennessee (I learned a different state's laws that suggested retreat when safe to do so in public). It would be best if you do retreat in public IF SAFE, whether or not you have to in TN. That way if all else fails and you have to use some level of force, it would appear more justified.

[IggyBcool]

There really is a LOT of grey area. I guess my main concern on the first post was. I wasn't trying to brake check him as in piss him off, but as in make the lights come on so he will get off of my ass so I could slow down and get over because we were already doing 80 on the freeway and there was several cars in front and in the other lane so there was no point in doing 100 so I could pass them. Then the whole swerving at me, trying to actually hit me and force me off the road, getting in front of me and slamming on your brakes so I'll hit him and force me to stop. To me, that puts me in fear of my life from him endangering my life because like I said what if he hits me and I head on a tree/car or he hits me and my car rolls 4 times. Its not like I intentionally wanted to screw with the guy, but in the end he got what he deserved.

Second scenario. I remember from the CCW the guy saying just because you're going to get in a fight you cant justify drawing your weapon..But I see when three ghetto gangster wanna-be's all coming at my vehicle I get the sense that they're not going to want to have a cup of coffee and smack a couple of times on my arm...that they ALL have the intent of doing work and seriously harming me.

[DaveTN]

Then the whole swerving at me, trying to actually hit me and force me off the road, getting in front of me and slamming on your brakes so I'll hit him and force me to stop. To me, that puts me in fear of my life from him endangering my life because like I said what if he hits me and I head on a tree/car or he hits me and my car rolls 4 times.

Doesn’t matter what you think; only what a reasonable person thinks (that means a jury).

The threat to your life is only on-going because you are creating it, not him. You take your foot off the gas, turn your turn signal on and move to the side of the road. It’s that simple.

Second scenario. I remember from the CCW the guy saying just because you're going to get in a fight you cant justify drawing your weapon..But I see when three ghetto gangster wanna-be's all coming at my vehicle I get the sense that they're not going to want to have a cup of coffee and smack a couple of times on my arm...that they ALL have the intent of doing work and seriously harming me.

A jury won’t buy the “I’m a mind reader and I knew what they were going to do; so I killed them.†Defense.

Roll up your windows lock your doors, if they try to get in the vehicle display the weapon, if they continue shoot them.

The only problem with this scenario is that if three bang bangers are coming after you in your car and you pull a gun; you better be ready to be seeing three more guns. You need to be looking for any possible way to escape, especially if you have your family with you. Getting in a firefight could get your family killed….. Run. In internet scenarios and stories the good guys always win, in real life it doesn’t happen that way.

[Guest nysos]

I just have a few questions regarding your scenario, regardless of whether it was 1 person or 3.

Why was your window down?

Why didn't you roll it up when you saw the guy getting out of the vehicle?

Were there cars stopped behind you that kept you from putting your car in reverse and going around him?

What did the 911 operator say to do when you were on the phone?

Were you able to get the license plate number?

Did you file a report after the incident?

After he started punching you, why did you get out of the car and decide to scuffle with him? - You said yourself you were originally strapped in with your seat belt. It seems to me it would have been easier to try and drive away/get the window up, than to unbuckle, exit vehicle, and then get into a grappling match with the guy whom you don't know whether he is armed or not.

I am wondering if there aren't more details to the story, or if some choice words weren't had between each other.

Based off the answers to those questions would have a lot to do with a responding officer determining whether you escalated the issue, or at least didn't try to DE-escalate it and get away.

when in doubt, get the f*** out.

[IggyBcool]

At the time my window was stuck down.. I accidently broke the button to roll it up a day or two before. It was in the middle of summer so it didn't really matter. Yes there were cars behind me, and he got in front of me and backed down on top of me to where I couldn't go around if I wanted. The operator said there were police on the way and to stay on the phone, well when he punched me it knocked my phone across the car. The only reason why I got out was because there was no where for me to go. I couldn't back up, couldn't go around so I wasn't goign to sit in the car and take free shots so I got out and ended it right hten and there.

[wcsc12]

I read this last night and couldn't figure out, at first, why it bugged me. After thinking about it, I realize it's because it's not about rights so much as privileges.

We, as American citizens, all possess the same and equal rights at birth. Privileges however are accorded to situation and position. Like driving a motor vehicle for instance: Driving is not a right, it's a privilege granted to the majority of the population based upon their ability to demonstrate, through written and driving tests, that they posses the requisite skills to safely operate a motor vehicle. In the case of us truck drivers, operating a big truck may be considered a further privilege based upon our willingness and ability to acquire the skills necessary to obtain and retain a Commercial Drivers License.

Going back to the police having more rights thing, they actually only have more privileges. And those privileges are solely contingent upon their training and experience and position. That is not to say that police officers are not above abusing said privileges, but we hope that this remains the exception rather than the rule.

My apologies for the hijack and to wcsc12 if I misconstrued his comment, but it just kinda' bugged me...

lolz no apologies necessary. I have a habit of choosing the wrong word and you're right, privileges is the better word.