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[G27]

Not teenagers, but Timothy McVeigh, the Uni Bomber? Point is, bad people will always be bad with the intentions of killing, regardless of race, skin color, or religion.

This is a good point, but to lump terrorists in with 'bad people' kinda dilutes the whole thing.

At some point, we have to get past the political correctness and call things for what they are. Islam, like it or don't, causes far more death and destruction than any other religion or group on the planet. This list, updated regularly, tracks terrorist attics by muslims over the last two months: Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

You can point out McVeigh or Kaczynski all you want to, but these (rare) guys can't hold a candle to what islamic extremists do in a given week, so let's drop the 'bigot' label and call it like it is, mkay?

[TMF]

You can point out McVeigh or Kaczynski all you want to, but these (rare) guys can't hold a candle to what islamic extremists do in a given week, so let's drop the 'bigot' label and call it like it is, mkay?

Yeah, I don't think it's even the same ballpark to compare modern day Islamo-facism to the occassional tinfoil hat that goes over the deep end. This is a problem that has infected Islam and spread wildly over the past 30-40 years and has revolutionized in the past 15 years through franchise terror groups. It's a lot different than a couple of guys getting together to overthrow the government. This is an international movement which is rooted in the religion, funded by governments and has an endless supply of unemployed, pissed off fighting-aged males to carry out attacks.

In regards to this instructor, I don't agree with him. An American is an American regardless of their religion. I don't think his stance against training Muslims has anything to do with the notion of preventing a terrorist attack. He just doesn't like Muslims as a whole and is discriminating against them. I think it is his right to do so as a private instructor, but if he is conducting courses on behalf of the government then this is beyond wrong.

Edited November 2, 2011 by TMF 18B
sp

[Oh Shoot]

...In regards to this instructor, I don't agree with him. An American is an American regardless of their religion....

Dunno about Texas, but you don't have to be an American citizen to get a carry permit here.

- OS

[TMF]

Dunno about Texas, but you don't have to be an American citizen to get a carry permit here.

- OS

Well I know people don't agree, but if a middle-eastern man who is not an American citizen came in for weapons training I'd be reporting it to the FBI. I don't think that's unreasonable at all. If he was an American I'd give him the benefit of the doubt unless he exibited behavior that was suspicious.

[Oh Shoot]

Well I know people don't agree, but if a middle-eastern man who is not an American citizen came in for weapons training I'd be reporting it to the FBI. I don't think that's unreasonable at all. If he was an American I'd give him the benefit of the doubt unless he exibited behavior that was suspicious.

How would you know if he is a citizen or not?

Do you have some sort of business that requires citizenship documentation from your customers?

The state of TN does not require citizenship to own firearms, or to even carry them.

- OS

Edited November 2, 2011 by OhShoot

[MphsTiger1981]

Dunno about Texas, but you don't have to be an American citizen to get a carry permit here.

- OS

Correct. Proof of U.S. Citizenship or "Lawful Permanent Residency" is all that is required.

[strickj]

Gee, I wasn't aware that a large group of radicalized white teenage boys had vowed to kill Americans. Where are their indoctrination and training camps located? How many thousands are being recruited and trained? Maybe next time you can try an analogy that fits. (end facetiousness)

I understand that you don't share my feelings and I frankly don't like them either. I'm sure the fliight instructors in Florida that inadvertently trained the 9/11 highjackers understand. We had a similar problem in Vietnam and I lost several good friends to suicide bombers for the cong. I won't apologize for how I feel but I do wish I weren't put into the position of feeling that way by those that want us dead. Until they stop being cowards, hiding among the innocent, I won't "assume" that I can identify the good from the bad.

The below comment speaks for me on your response.

Lumping "bad people" together based on race and religion is the same tactics antis use to lump us together as lunatic gun owners.

It's a real shame...

Not teenagers, but Timothy McVeigh, the Uni Bomber? Point is, bad people will always be bad with the intentions of killing, regardless of race, skin color, or religion.

If he is teaching the class for a state program, where the state issues the license, he is wrong. Don't worry, let me ease your paranoia...not all Muslims are waiting to blow you up with a shoddy made explosive device. You DO realize people of all races commit violent crimes, correct? Is it possible to separate the good from the bad based on that?

I'm really surprised at all of the amount of openly displayed bigotry I'm seeing here.

This is a good point, but to lump terrorists in with 'bad people' kinda dilutes the whole thing.

At some point, we have to get past the political correctness and call things for what they are. Islam, like it or don't, causes far more death and destruction than any other religion or group on the planet. This list, updated regularly, tracks terrorist attics by muslims over the last two months: Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

You can point out McVeigh or Kaczynski all you want to, but these (rare) guys can't hold a candle to what islamic extremists do in a given week, so let's drop the 'bigot' label and call it like it is, mkay?

Really? Are you really wanting to go there?

How many millions have Christians killed? Oh, you want an updated list?.... How many Christians have bombed buildings, abortion clinics and shot up schools in modern times? How many "right wing fringe" groups planned mass attacks against Americans?

Georgia militia members arrested, accused of plotting ricin attack - latimes.com

Ga. man convicted in plot to seize TN courthouse - WSMV Channel 4

If we're going to "call it like it is", then maybe us right-leaning white men should be reported for taking a gun training class...

Edited November 2, 2011 by strickj

[TMF]

How would you know if he is a citizen or not?

Do you have some sort of business that requires citizenship documentation from your customers?

The state of TN does not require citizenship to own firearms, or to even carry them.

- OS

It's certainly something I would require if I was giving someone weapons training.

[Links2k]

Not teenagers, but Timothy McVeigh, the Uni Bomber? Point is, bad people will always be bad with the intentions of killing, regardless of race, skin color, or religion.

If he is teaching the class for a state program, where the state issues the license, he is wrong. Don't worry, let me ease your paranoia...not all Muslims are waiting to blow you up with a shoddy made explosive device. You DO realize people of all races commit violent crimes, correct? Is it possible to separate the good from the bad based on that?

I'm really surprised at all of the amount of openly displayed bigotry I'm seeing here.

I'm not. If you like the forum as much as I do you will get used to it or ignore it. Hard to change stupid.

[G27]

Really? Are you really wanting to go there?

How many millions have Christians killed? Oh, you want an updated list?.... How many Christians have bombed buildings, abortion clinics and shot up schools in modern times? How many "right wing fringe" groups planned mass attacks against Americans?

Sure thing, but we're not talking throughout history, we're talking right now. I'd like to think we're past the dark ages.

Sure, there are bat-crap crazy people of all types, but you can't begin to find a listing of Christians (or any other organized group) that can begin to hold a candle to what radical islamists do over any period of time.

If we're going to "call it like it is", then maybe us right-leaning white men should be reported for taking a gun training class...

You can't begin to show me anything like the page I linked above regarding 'right leaning white men', because there's simply not enough info to make it worth your while.

Look, you can argue all day if you want to, but right now, nothing comes close to radical islamists wrt death toll. Nothing.

I know this offend your 'enlightened, PC sensibilities' and all that, but facts are facts.

[Guest Jollydogg]

Sure thing, but we're not talking throughout history, we're talking right now. I'd like to think we're past the dark ages.

You think we're out of the dark ages? Even with the technology, social, and medical advances we've achieved, we still can't even learn to live with each other in peace on this planet. Famine, over-population, dependence on fossil fuels for which the big oil companies hold patents for the non-fossil fuel dependent technologies, health-care in utter shambles, lying and greedy politicians, war at every turn?

And you think we're out of the dark ages?

Sure, there are bat-crap crazy people of all types, but you can't begin to find a listing of Christians (or any other organized group) that can begin to hold a candle to what radical islamists do over any period of time.

OK, surely in some point in time, you covered a little piece of history called the Holocaust, correct? Or perhaps all of the tribal conflicts in Africa, still continuing to this day?

Both the Quron and the Bible promote action against those who are immoral or non-believers, or have given accounts of death and destruction in the name of their "higher power"

[Guest Jollydogg]

This is a good point, but to lump terrorists in with 'bad people' kinda dilutes the whole thing.

At some point, we have to get past the political correctness and call things for what they are. Islam, like it or don't, causes far more death and destruction than any other religion or group on the planet. This list, updated regularly, tracks terrorist attics by muslims over the last two months: Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

You can point out McVeigh or Kaczynski all you want to, but these (rare) guys can't hold a candle to what islamic extremists do in a given week, so let's drop the 'bigot' label and call it like it is, mkay?

You said it best; Islamic extremists. So let's just leave it at that. Not Muslims, not the religion of Islam itself, but Islamic extremists. And yet, people keep lumping these extremists in with the entire race and/or religion. This is bigotry, so I guess I'll call it like it is, mkay?

[G27]

You think we're out of the dark ages? Even with the technology, social, and medical advances we've achieved, we still can't even learn to live with each other in peace on this planet. Famine, over-population, dependence on fossil fuels for which the big oil companies hold patents for the non-fossil fuel dependent technologies, health-care in utter shambles, lying and greedy politicians, war at every turn?

And you think we're out of the dark ages?

Yah, yah, whatever - while we're still human and therefore will always breed new monsters, we're far beyond the dark ages wrt life in general.

Both the Quron and the Bible promote action against those who are immoral or non-believers, or have given accounts of death and destruction in the name of their "higher power"

And that's my point - aside from a very few loonies, there's NOTHING in modern Christianity that compares with radical islamist. Nothing.

I'm not even passing judgement on Islam - one of my regular shooting buddies is a muslim - my point was that from a purely factual numbers standpoint, no organization on earth is anywhere near as bloody as radical islamists nowadays. It's not even close.

[G27]

You said it best; Islamic extremists. So let's just leave it at that. Not Muslims, not the religion of Islam itself, but Islamic extremists. And yet, people keep lumping these extremists in with the entire race and/or religion. This is bigotry, so I guess I'll call it like it is, mkay?

Haha, ok, hardcore with the semantics I see.

I mean, those 'islamic extremists' aren't muslims, eh?

Yeesh. The political correctness doctrine is strong with this one...

[Guest Jollydogg]

Big difference between the practical concept of political correctness and bigotry, but hey, whatever you want to call it that makes you comfortable with your own beliefs.

[G27]

Big difference between the practical concept of political correctness and bigotry, but hey, whatever you want to call it that makes you comfortable with your own beliefs.

*sigh*

I've already explained this has nothing to do with 'my beliefs' - I'm simply talking facts. Numbers.

Whatever, it's obvious some here refuse to see what I'm saying. You guys can pat yourselves on the back and tell each other how enlightened you are. have fun.

[mav]

I do not understand for the life of me how comments made by some jackass in Jerkwater, Texas (pop. 2,114) can lead to the crusades, abortion bombings, and the dark ages. I completely understand expanding the argument to make a point, but come on. Seriously?

As I stated earlier, I disagree with this man’s comments. Personally, I equate him with that Pastor Jones who wanted to have a Quran burning day. They are both a$$holes who are trying to capture their 15 minutes of fame by stoking passions of the populace on a hot-button issue. However, what bothers me more is the hypersensitivity and overkill of political correctness by those in the government, media, and in the general population. When someone comes along and gives a big f-you to all the p.c. nonsense and states how they truly feel I find it rather refreshing, even though I may disagree with what they are saying.

While I may be oversimplifying this case, I would actually be thanking the guy if I was a socialist liberal, Obama supporter, non-Christian Arab, or Muslim. My comments to him may be like the following, “Sir. I would like to thank you for publically making your views regarding my political leanings, religion, and/or ethnicity known. I would have hated to give my hard earned money to an individual who secretly held such animosity towards me. While I respect your right to espouse your views publically, I will exercise my rights to fund your competitors.”

There aren’t many things that speak as loud or are as powerful as the wallet.

Edited November 3, 2011 by mav

[Guest lostpass]

Sure thing, but we're not talking throughout history, we're talking right now. I'd like to think we're past the dark ages.

Sure, there are bat-crap crazy people of all types, but you can't begin to find a listing of Christians (or any other organized group) that can begin to hold a candle to what radical islamists do over any period of time.

I'm not quite clear if you're arguing about death toll or efficiency. Certainly if you are talking about death toll from an organized group the United States of America wins that battle.

If you're talking about efficiency of terrorists, Bin Laden killed more people than Tim McVeigh, then I will admit that they have better terrorists than we do.

You can't begin to show me anything like the page I linked above regarding 'right leaning white men', because there's simply not enough info to make it worth your while.

Well I could show you this (right leaning white guys in charge) but you're right, that is an order of magnitude different.

Look, you can argue all day if you want to, but right now, nothing comes close to radical islamists wrt death toll. Nothing.

I get what you're saying but all you are really saying is that those brown jerks are better than our white radicals at killing people.

In essence you are arguing that while there are murdering jerks in any group of people the murdering group of people should be discriminated against because they are really good at it. I'm nit sure I necessarily disagree.

[Guest Jollydogg]

Not wanting to teach non-Christian Arabs, or Muslims, how to get a gun permit is understandable to me. I wouldn't want to train someone that might be the next Fort Hood shooter. Every week there seem to be stories about some "good muslim" that turned out to be planning the next mass shooting or bombing. I know there are good Muslims that want to live the American dream but it's impossible to identify them when they sign up for a handgun class. He should be able to exclude this group but the ACLU will probably disagree.

I can't even begin to express my dismay with this statement.

[TMF]

He should be able to exclude this group but the ACLU will probably disagree.

Well I would say that's what is debatable. The part that bothers me is that the CCW classes that are accredited by the state as a gate to being issued a CCW it puts an individual in a situation to where he/she may not be able to procure the necessary training due to discrimination. It would be as if someone can't get issued a CCW by the state simply because of their race/religion.

I know that it's somewhat abstract, but it's only because the state isn't going to invest the money to have state employed handgun trainers/testers for CCW like at the DMV for a driver's license. They allow for private businesses to conduct the training under criteria set by the state. For one of those private businesses to deny that ability to acquire a CCW for discriminatory reasons should earn them a loss of the state's approval to teach CCW courses for the purposes of obtaining a CCW.

[BigK]

Key Difference Between "Our" Terrorists And "Theirs"

1. The sheer number of extremists...if the ranks of any other group were as full of radicals as Islam, the argument that there are bad people in all groups would make more sense to me. In reality, there are THOUSANDS (maybe millions) of Bin Ladens out there right now for every McVeigh or Kaczynski. The important question is what is it about this group that produces so many terrorists?

2. McVeigh and Kaczynski are the dumbest examples of non-Muslim terrorists you could have chosen. Kaczynski was an atheist and although raised Catholic and having some core beliefs, McVeigh said science was his religion. Aside from that one is a survivalist the other is a militia sympathizer...not exactly big groups on the scale of Islam. Regardless, maybe survivalists and militia sympathizers are as likely to produce terrorists as Islam, I don't know, but there are so few, who cares?

3. The media treatment of extremists...when Islamic terrorist are referenced in the media, they are often called suicide bombers, freedom fighters, or insurgents. The media almost never calls them what they are: mass murderers, Muslim terrorists, or psychotic killers. The media establishment is too worried about offending the "other" part of the group. so they avoid linking them to Islam. When they reference other terrorists, they call them militants, zealots, gun nuts, or lunatics...often focusing specifically on their beliefs and ideals.

4. The voice of the "other" part of the group...when CNN ran news of the towers falling on 9/11, some Muslims throughout the world were literally dancing in the streets and cheering. I saw NO organized group of them banding together to set the record straight by saying they don't approve. When extremists like Fred Phelps says/does something stupid (maybe a bad example, since it's not violence) the majority of other Baptists are eager to distance themselves and denounce his actions/beliefs. The same thing happened when other religious nuts bombed abortion clinics. Some extremists backed their play, but the VAST majority abhorred their actions and spoke out against them. If the majority of Islam is peaceful and tolerant, where's the loud voice of the non-violent, non-extremists Muslims?

Edited November 4, 2011 by BigK

[Guest Jollydogg]

Key Difference Between "Our" Terrorists And "Theirs"

1. The sheer number of extremists...if the ranks of any other group were as full of radicals as Islam, the argument that there are bad people in all groups would make more sense to me. In reality, there are THOUSANDS (maybe millions) of Bin Ladens out there right now for every McVeigh or Kaczynski. The important question is what is it about this group that produces so many terrorists?

2. McVeigh and Kaczynski are the dumbest examples of non-Muslim terrorists you could have chosen. Kaczynski was an atheist and although raised Catholic and having some core beliefs, McVeigh said science was his religion. Aside from that one is a survivalist the other is a militia sympathizer...not exactly big groups on the scale of Islam. Regardless, maybe survivalists and militia sympathizers are as likely to produce terrorists as Islam, I don't know, but there are so few, who cares?

2. The media treatment of extremists...when Islamic terrorist are referenced in the media, they are often called suicide bombers, freedom fighters, or insurgents. The media almost never calls them what they are: mass murderers, Muslim terrorists, or psychotic killers. The media establishment is too worried about offending the "other" part of the group. so they avoid linking them to Islam. When they reference other terrorists, they call them militants, zealots, gun nuts, or lunatics...often focusing specifically on their beliefs and ideals.

3. The voice of the "other" part of the group...when CNN ran news of the towers falling on 9/11, some Muslims throughout the world were literally dancing in the streets and cheering. I saw NO organized group of them banding together to set the record straight by saying they don't approve. When extremists like Fred Phelps says/does something stupid (maybe a bad example, since it's not violence) the majority of other Baptists are eager to distance themselves and denounce his actions/beliefs. The same thing happened when other religious nuts bombed abortion clinics. Some extremists backed their play, but the VAST majority abhorred their actions and spoke out against them. If the majority of Islam is peaceful and tolerant, where's the loud voice of the non-violent, non-extremists Muslims?

How are my examples dumb? My point wasn't to name two random terrorists, it was to just name other people who have done horrible things. I'm not focusing on the religious aspect, I'm focusing on the fact that because of the action of a good number of one particular religion, the whole religion is getting knocked down and insulted.

Look, I can understand rational fear. Get a little nervous when an Arab in traditional garb walks past you in an airport? That's understandable. That's rational. It's human emotion based on what the media has shoved down our throats, so I can't fault anyone for that.

However, to act out on that fear, doing things that this guy from Texas is doing? Well, your call, but I disagree. My point from those examples is there are people from every race, religion, skin color that will do bad things.

You saw none of them banded together or dismayed by the actions of their citizens? Were you over there? You really think CNN.com is credible enough to even have shot footage of those who were?

I've had multiple buddies over there from my previous unit. The world is a lot different than we think. There are good people there, most are afraid to speak out. You ever think that the "loud voice" you speak of is there, it's just not "loud" as we'd perceive it? I don't really think you take into account the differences in culture and media bias when you make that statement.

[BigK]

How are my examples dumb? My point wasn't to name two random terrorists, it was to just name other people who have done horrible things. I'm not focusing on the religious aspect, I'm focusing on the fact that because of the action of a good number of one particular religion, the whole religion is getting knocked down and insulted.

Look, I can understand rational fear. Get a little nervous when an Arab in traditional garb walks past you in an airport? That's understandable. That's rational. It's human emotion based on what the media has shoved down our throats, so I can't fault anyone for that.

However, to act out on that fear, doing things that this guy from Texas is doing? Well, your call, but I disagree. My point from those examples is there are people from every race, religion, skin color that will do bad things.

You saw none of them banded together or dismayed by the actions of their citizens? Were you over there? You really think CNN.com is credible enough to even have shot footage of those who were?

I've had multiple buddies over there from my previous unit. The world is a lot different than we think. There are good people there, most are afraid to speak out. You ever think that the "loud voice" you speak of is there, it's just not "loud" as we'd perceive it? I don't really think you take into account the differences in culture and media bias when you make that statement.

My bad..." dumb" was a poor word choice on my part, my apologies. "Inappropriate" would have been better. Bad people certainly do bad things and in all fairness to your argument, McVeigh and Kaczynski do prove that. However, any group we attempt to put them into to demonstrate the capability of any group to produce terrorists seems to fail the "in disproportionate numbers" test.

I say this, because it seems that the prevailing arguments against this guy's stance is that a group (Muslims) is being targeted for suspicion unfairly. I'm arguing that the sheer volume of extremists in the ranks of Islam is why they are targeted. The notion that we can't call 'em like we sees 'em is what's unfair. A few isolated non-Muslim terrorist examples thrown out there don't dispell the idea that while all Muslims aren't terrorists, the chance of a terrorist being Muslim is disproportionately high.

The PC crowd can say this type of stereotyping is wrong all they want, but I say it's part of what's kept many species alive. A deer usually runs away when it hears ANY "human" sound or smells ANY "human" odors without regard to whether the human is a hunter or a PETA member. So, until people start seeing terrorists who are 60 year-old Buddhist monks or 20 yr old Chilean fishermen or 40 yr old PTA moms, the simplest explanation is usually the best explanation.

[Guest bkelm18]

Not wanting to teach non-Christian Arabs, or Muslims, how to get a gun permit is understandable to me. I wouldn't want to train someone that might be the next Fort Hood shooter. Every week there seem to be stories about some "good muslim" that turned out to be planning the next mass shooting or bombing. I know there are good Muslims that want to live the American dream but it's impossible to identify them when they sign up for a handgun class. He should be able to exclude this group but the ACLU will probably disagree.

Disgusting. That's all I've got to say about that. It's shameful to think any self respecting American would strip rights away from anyone. Non-whites and non-christians in your case, judging by this and other postings.

Edited November 4, 2011 by bkelm18

[Guest lostpass]

Key Difference Between "Our" Terrorists And "Theirs"

4. The voice of the "other" part of the group...when CNN ran news of the towers falling on 9/11, some Muslims throughout the world were literally dancing in the streets and cheering. I saw NO organized group of them banding together to set the record straight by saying they don't approve. When extremists like Fred Phelps says/does something stupid (maybe a bad example, since it's not violence) the majority of other Baptists are eager to distance themselves and denounce his actions/beliefs. The same thing happened when other religious nuts bombed abortion clinics. Some extremists backed their play, but the VAST majority abhorred their actions and spoke out against them. If the majority of Islam is peaceful and tolerant, where's the loud voice of the non-violent, non-extremists Muslims?

I didn't see the dancing in the streets thing. But I guess you are right, no organized condemnation of 9/11. For that you'd have to have a mayor or something... Oh wait, you're wrong.

Glad we could get that straightened out.

Here's the weird thing, everyone assumes that terrorism is all about religion. This, is quite possibly, the biggest self delusion that has ever existed. I get why people believe it "This person doesn't believe the same stuff I do therefore their religion is the reason they do evil things"

Except that is pure crap. People don't do evil stuff because they are muslim, christian, atheist or whatever. They do stuff and then look for a reason that their religion endorses.

Take the following test:

I'd spend all day tomorrow killing people with a machete except:

A) I'm a christian

C) It's just wrong

If your answer is A you have deeper problems than your religion.