My Apt Complex says I can't have my gun in the apartment.

[Wingshooter]

while you're at it, be sure to mention in the ad that you're seeking crack smoking, anti-gun, transgendered cross-dressers who like to dress up like Liza Minnelli. that should pretty much even up the score with the former roommates.

Haha. This IS worth a try!

[DaveTN]

It's interesting, a business owner (private business and property) that posts up no carry under TCA may be legally held liable for injuries and wrongful death in the event a criminal comes into the store and kills customers and workers,

Give a Tennessee source for any case where an owner that banned guns has been held liable because he disarmed patrons or workers?

[Guest WyattEarp]

this answers my question in regards to them having to put signs up that state no carrying of firearms allowed on the property under TCA 39-17-1359. They don't have to post signs, but they can't prosecute me for violating the clause in the lease that prohibits the possession of firearms, because they failed to post signs.

http://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2009/op/op09-170.pdf

Question 2. If there is a clause in an apartment lease that prohibits the possession of firearms within the leased space, is a landlord also required to post signs that satisfy the requirement of Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359 to effectively prohibit such possession on property owned by the landlord?

Answer 2. A landlord who prohibits firearms through a lease or property rule would not be required to post signs that satisfy the requirements set forth in Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359. However, if the landlord does not post such signs, persons who violate the prohibition would not be subject to criminal prosecution for violating Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-17-1359.

now in regards to Question/Answer #2. So that mean I wouldn't be prosecuted for violating the TCA 39-17-1359. What about for trespassing? Since I have a lease, they are not posted, and even though I violated Section 16 of the Lease in regards to the possession of firearms on the premises, they can't prosecute me, and since I have a signed lease, and without enacting a formal eviction process, they subsequently can't ask me not to return to the property because I have a legal right to be there as a tenant. Correct?

to those still wondering if the apartment can legally deny firearms, as some have stated (but no one bothered to cite, so I'll do it myself), yes they can deny possession of firearms legally. whether or not they can be civilly held liable remains up in the air...in my above post, I'm inclined to think they CAN be held civilly liable (regardless of the language they put in their lease) from the links that I have cited, but I will keep searching as there may be an exclusion somewhere in the vast sea of language of the TCA.

same link as referenced above in this same post.

1. Can a landlord prohibit tenants who possess valid handgun carry permits from possessing firearms in the apartment if the tenant has a permit issued by the State?

1. A landlord can prohibit tenants, including those who hold handgun carry permits, from possessing firearms within the leased premises. Such a prohibition may be imposed through a clause in the lease, or, in counties where the Uniform Residential Landlord and Tenant Act, Tenn. Code Ann. §§ 66-28-101 to 66-28-501, is in effect, such a prohibition may be imposed by adopting a rule that satisfies the requirements of Tenn. Code Ann. § 66-28-402.

[Guest WyattEarp]

Give a Tennessee source for any case where an owner that banned guns has been held liable because he disarmed patrons or workers?

Where did I say anything about there being a case? Where did I say that a business owner has been held liable? To my knowledge as of this moment, there is no case. Therefore no precedent has been set, and until such precedent is set, the law is....well Dave, it's still the law.

I'm going by what the TCA stated. So I'm still not sure what your comment has to do with anything or what bearing it has upon this conversation?

the TCA states...

AN ACT to amend Tennessee Code Annotated, Title 39, Chapter 17, Part 13; Section 57-3-204 and Section 57-4-203, relative to permitting or prohibiting the carrying of firearms in certain places.

(d) Nothing in this section shall be construed to alter, reduce or eliminate any civil or criminal liability that a property owner or manager may have for injuries arising on their property.

[Makiaveli]

**EDIT**

Just saw the post where he said how much it would cost etc. Leaving this as an example of why you should finish reading before you post

I believe evicted would get you out of breaking the lease financially. I could be wrong.

Do you have a relative or friend who could store it for you?

If I remember correctly (it's been 5 years since I worked in property management), you would likely be free of any future rent payments, but the deposit would almost definitely be forfeit. You might even be liable for damages if your roomies leave it trashed. Also, depending on how big a company they are etc, if you do wind up owing money, it could show up on your credit report. And when you go to rent your next place, this will be a gap in your history so any reputable place will want to know why. Obviously an eviction will be a stumbling block.

I think your best bet is double check on the breaking it down idea, and just start now looking for a new place. Also never hurts to ask if they will voluntarily let you out of the lease early.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Makiaveli

[Makiaveli]

Sheesh.,..

-Step 1 - Carry your gun normally and shut-up about it. Talking about it to campus police, apartment managers and roomates is only going to bring you further trouble. Not to mention, the added risk of having your gun(s) stolen. Millions of people live in apartments with 'no weapons' clauses in their leases and nothing ever comes up about it. Think real hard about why this is.

-Step 2 - Go to the courthouse and evict your roommates.

-Step 3 - find new roommates ready to move in as soon as your current roomates' 30 days are up.

-Step 4 - Rinse and repeat as needed.

If all four roommates are on the lease, then I don't think he would have grounds to evict them. Also the managers/owners already know he has a gun and do have the right to inspect. If they then find the gun he is homeless and owes a ton of money. Also, even if he is the only person on the lease, and sublet to the roommates, he would have to have grounds to evict them. If he doesn't have a lease, good luck evicting in TN.

[TMF]

After reading the law it sounds to me if you just ignore the problem there isn't much they can do unless they pursue it in civil court. You can just say that you got rid of the pistol but keep it anyway. I think if you continue to make a big stink about it they're gonna read the law too, and then post signs, at which time you'd be violating the law and could be prosecuted. I'd drop it and just keep doing what you're doing.

[Makiaveli]

After reading the law it sounds to me if you just ignore the problem there isn't much they can do unless they pursue it in civil court. You can just say that you got rid of the pistol but keep it anyway. I think if you continue to make a big stink about it they're gonna read the law too, and then post signs, at which time you'd be violating the law and could be prosecuted. I'd drop it and just keep doing what you're doing.

And if they catch him and evict him? The roomies have already proven they will run tell, and if he is found with the weapon in violation of his lease he will get evicted, be out the money, and good luck using them as a reference. If it winds up on his credit report (what college student can afford 2 rent payments?) that can impact his career options as well.

[Wingshooter]

This may not be the best advice for you, but I would still keep my gun in the app. I would make sure I was the only one that knew it! I might bolt a small safe to a piece of my own furniture in a hidden location. A landlord cannot just come in and search your stuff. My gun would be with me off-campus.

I would not disassemble my gun or carry it onto campus. I would either leave it in my locked room, in a locked safe, with a trigger lock on it or in a safe deposit box. I'll assume there are no safe, close places to park off campus.

I would be on a mission to find someone to take my lease, and I would distace myself from those trouble makin' roomies. The less they know the better.

[TMF]

And if they catch him and evict him? The roomies have already proven they will run tell, and if he is found with the weapon in violation of his lease he will get evicted, be out the money, and good luck using them as a reference. If it winds up on his credit report (what college student can afford 2 rent payments?) that can impact his career options as well.

Yeah he sure can. However, in order to evict him for violating terms of the contract they're gonna have to prove it. If he says he doesn't have one there isn't much they can do. I don't see them frisking him upon entry/exit. Also, inspections are done in the presence of the renter, meaning the landlord can't just rifle through your stuff when you're at class. It's something that will be difficult to prove and is going to be more trouble than it's worth to the management. It's hard enough to evict someone who doesn't pay rent.... imagine how hard it would be to claim he actually has a firearm. In regards to his roommates, maybe being a little more discreet is the proper approach.

However, if the issue is pushed I see them investing in a few postings which would make his possession a criminal act. They can simply call the police and say they saw him with a firearm. If the cops find him with one he will be charged and it will be enough evidence to evict him for violating the clause.

[Makiaveli]

Yeah he sure can. However, in order to evict him for violating terms of the contract they're gonna have to prove it. If he says he doesn't have one there isn't much they can do. I don't see them frisking him upon entry/exit. Also, inspections are done in the presence of the renter, meaning the landlord can't just rifle through your stuff when you're at class. It's something that will be difficult to prove and is going to be more trouble than it's worth to the management. It's hard enough to evict someone who doesn't pay rent.... imagine how hard it would be to claim he actually has a firearm. In regards to his roommates, maybe being a little more discreet is the proper approach.

However, if the issue is pushed I see them investing in a few postings which would make his possession a criminal act. They can simply call the police and say they saw him with a firearm. If the cops find him with one he will be charged and it will be enough evidence to evict him for violating the clause.

The issue is if they file with the courts to have him evicted then he will have to go to court. Given the manager has already proved to be a liar, he's likely to say he saw the gun.

Also, ok so they inspect with him there. That means the gun is there and if they find it....a few quick pictures and he's out the door. Also, doesn't have to be a formal inspection. They likely have the place sprayed for bugs on a regular basis and can ask/tell the bug guy to keep his eyes open. Same with any maintenance work.

Don't get me wrong, I sympathize with the guy. But if your landlord wants you gone, it can be done, even in a state like TN that favors the renter over the landlord.

[JayC]

They're not. If I rent out my property I can make a rule of no firearms on the property. It's my house. On my property I can dictate what rights someone can exercise. If someone exercises their right to free speech and I don't like what they say, I can kick them off. As much as I think it's an undereducated policy to not allow firearms, I support the right of the property owners to decide what's acceptable on THEIR property.

That is the way it should work... but there are limits placed on you as a landlord at both the state and federal level. You can't refuse to rent to a muslim, or kick somebody out because they're a muslim.

The question or whether the right to own a certain bit or property is not something that can be given away in a rental agreement is still up in the air in TN (as it relates to firearms and the 2nd Amendment)...

But don't kid yourself, you're not free to do what you want with your property as a landlord.

[JayC]

If all four roommates are on the lease, then I don't think he would have grounds to evict them. Also the managers/owners already know he has a gun and do have the right to inspect. If they then find the gun he is homeless and owes a ton of money. Also, even if he is the only person on the lease, and sublet to the roommates, he would have to have grounds to evict them. If he doesn't have a lease, good luck evicting in TN.

Good luck forcing somebody to open up a locked safe in a 'inspection' under TN landlord law... There are strict limits on what you can inspect and a locked filing cabinet/safe isn't on the list normally.

[ted]

Man that's bad

Edited October 28, 2011 by ted

[Guest WyattEarp]

I'll be asking an attorney tomorrow about the apt complexes 2 provisions.

It's not questionable as to their right to prohibit firearms, we've established that that is in fact legal and their right, but IF they prohibit firearms, it is in question as to the legality of Section 16, stating they are not responsible for my safety and have no duty as such to offer protection from assault, attack, bodily harm or death are free from civil liability.

From my research so far (as I have yet to find anything legal stating that they are not liable) it appears they can be held civilly liable in the event of an attack which results in injuries and/or death, and if an attorney confirms this, then according to the Uniform Residential Landlord and Tenanct Act as cited directly below, they would have an included a prohibited provision within the lease agreement, which would mean they are in breach of contract, and I would have my way out of my lease without further costs, and I could be allowed to vacate the premises and find new housing.

I would try to avoid court, by having an attorney simply send them a letter, stating they are in violation of sections listed and referencing the appropriate laws under TCA and that it is requested that the lease be declared null and void and I vacate the premises in a timely fashion. I doubt the Apt Complex would challenge it, especially after their legal team reviewed it and realized they screwed up.

My guess is they have put this in there thinking "Oh we rent to a bunch of college students, none of them will ever be smart enough to know any better, and they won't challenge it". Till they met Wyatt ****ing Earp, that is.

http://www.tnaptassoc.org/URLTANEW.pdf

66-28-203. Prohibited provisions.

(a) No rental agreement may provide that the tenant:

(1) Authorizes any person to confess judgment on a claim arising out of the rental agreement; (2) Agrees to the exculpation or limitation of any liability of the landlord to the tenant arising under law or to indemnify the landlord for that liability or the costs connected with such liability.

( A provision prohibited by subsection (a) included in an agreement is unenforceable. Should a landlord willfully provide a rental agreement containing provisions known by the landlord to be prohibited by this chapter, the tenant may recover actual damages sustained. The tenant cannot agree to waive or forego rights or remedies under this chapter.

66-28-204. Unconscionability.

(a) If the court, as a matter of law, finds:

(1) A rental agreement or any provision thereof was unconscionable when made, the court shall enforce the remainder of the agreement without the unconscionable provision, or limit the application of any unconscionable provision to avoid an unconscionable result; or (2) A settlement in which a party waives or agrees to forego a claim or right under this chapter or under a rental agreement was unconscionable at the time it was made, the court shall enforce the remainder of the settlement without the unconscionable provision, or limit the application of any unconscionable provision to avoid the unconscionable result.

URLTA - Page 8 of 22

( If unconscionability is put into issue by a party or by the court upon its own motion, the parties shall be afforded a reasonable opportunity to present evidence as to the setting, purpose, and effect of the rental agreement or settlement to aid the court in making the determination.

Yeah he sure can. However, in order to evict him for violating terms of the contract they're gonna have to prove it. If he says he doesn't have one there isn't much they can do. I don't see them frisking him upon entry/exit. Also, inspections are done in the presence of the renter, meaning the landlord can't just rifle through your stuff when you're at class. It's something that will be difficult to prove and is going to be more trouble than it's worth to the management. It's hard enough to evict someone who doesn't pay rent.... imagine how hard it would be to claim he actually has a firearm. In regards to his roommates, maybe being a little more discreet is the proper approach.

However, if the issue is pushed I see them investing in a few postings which would make his possession a criminal act. They can simply call the police and say they saw him with a firearm. If the cops find him with one he will be charged and it will be enough evidence to evict him for violating the clause.

well until signs are posted (and I'm not about to mention it them), there is no violation of criminal law here, and therefore, I can allow them to inspect my room, but not locked safe's. They couldn't get my safe open without a search warrant, and since they have no sign posted, it's not a criminal matter, meaning they can't get a search warrant, which means I ain't gotta open jack ****. If they come in while I'm gone, and go through my stuff, and open my safe, they're in deep kimshee and in violation of the lease.

I would tend to think they would have to notify me and give me fair chance to remove the handgun (assuming it was in the apartment and/or on the premises) as I have never received any written warning or notice of any violation to date, nor have I signed any notice of warning or notification to date, and a conversation doesn't constitute a written warning or notice under the law.

I don't think they could just wait till i go to school for the day, post a sign, and then call the cops the minute I got home and have me arrested. I believe that would constitute entrapment, because when I left for school there was no sign posted, but when I returned there was, and I would have to be given fair chance to remove it without repercussion. After that point, I would then be subject to prosecution if after seeing the sign I still failed to remove it. I'm guessing if they did post it up, they'd have to notify the entire apartment complex of the postings to give everyone the same amnesty period in which to get rid of, dispose of or relocate and prohibited items.

The issue is if they file with the courts to have him evicted then he will have to go to court. Given the manager has already proved to be a liar, he's likely to say he saw the gun.

Also, ok so they inspect with him there. That means the gun is there and if they find it....a few quick pictures and he's out the door. Also, doesn't have to be a formal inspection. They likely have the place sprayed for bugs on a regular basis and can ask/tell the bug guy to keep his eyes open. Same with any maintenance work.

Don't get me wrong, I sympathize with the guy. But if your landlord wants you gone, it can be done, even in a state like TN that favors the renter over the landlord.

they only spray for bugs in common areas, not in the bedrooms. In all actuality, there's no breaker panel in here, no wiring, no access panels, no plumbing, nothing in here other than an internet port outlet and cable outlet and if those need servicing, I have to call the internet company or cable company and make an appointment and be present during such repairs.

Lease specifically states the only way they can enter my room without my permission and presence is if it's an emergency and necessary to prevent damage or mitigate damage to the apartment unit. But I don't believe they can't just start sifting through dresser drawers, boxes, and what not. I'm sure exactly how it works, but I believe they can only search for things in plain sight (i.e under the bed, on top of dressers, on top of and under desks, beside dressers). I need to read more about "inspections" and see what it specifically states.

[dats82]

Has the management or roomies approached you about this anymore after the initial discussion? If not, you should just shut-up and let it pass. The more you keep digging and talking to different people about whatever and whatever, you are just spreading your business to people who don't need to know.

You started this thread for advice so here it is...

1) You have already figured out that this is a civil matter. You are not going to be criminally charged with anything if you keep your gun there. Therefore, keep your gun hidden at all times. If it is not on your hip concealed, lock it up in your secret safe place.

2) Minimize contact and verbal exchanges with your roomies. They are obviously douche bags and not your friends. Tell them to go kick rocks.

3) Finally quit talking about it, to everyone. Nobody needs to know any of this stuff other than you. The more people you talk to, the more people you are admitting to that you are knowingly and willingly violating your lease. It never bodes well to admit guilt and then try articulate how you are somehow not at fault. You will fail.

[Wingshooter]

Has the management or roomies approached you about this anymore after the initial discussion? If not, you should just shut-up and let it pass. The more you keep digging and talking to different people about whatever and whatever, you are just spreading your business to people who don't need to know.

You started this thread for advice so here it is...

1) You have already figured out that this is a civil matter. You are not going to be criminally charged with anything if you keep your gun there. Therefore, keep your gun hidden at all times. If it is not on your hip concealed, lock it up in your secret safe place.

2) Minimize contact and verbal exchanges with your roomies. They are obviously douche bags and not your friends. Tell them to go kick rocks.

3) Finally quit talking about it, to everyone. Nobody needs to know any of this stuff other than you. The more people you talk to, the more people you are admitting to that you are knowingly and willingly violating your lease. It never bodes well to admit guilt and then try articulate how you are somehow not at fault. You will fail.

+1

I agree. Nothing good will come by drawing attention to the matter.

Sometimes the old saying "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission" has merit. I wouldn't carry on campus or posted places, but at the apartment....

Edited October 27, 2011 by Batman

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

The government isn’t banning firearms; the property owner is. He read it, understood it, and signed it.

You do not have right to bear arms, you have a right to own arms, but not on someone else’s property. Carrying a crucifix in Tennessee is legal; carrying a gun is a crime.

They're not. If I rent out my property I can make a rule of no firearms on the property. It's my house. On my property I can dictate what rights someone can exercise. If someone exercises their right to free speech and I don't like what they say, I can kick them off. As much as I think it's an undereducated policy to not allow firearms, I support the right of the property owners to decide what's acceptable on THEIR property.

So then an apartment owner can say that no African-Americans (or any race, whatever) can live in their apartment?

Edited October 27, 2011 by ArmaDeFuego

[Guest lostpass]

So then an apartment owner can say that no African-Americans (or any race, whatever) can live in their apartment?

Nope, there is a law against that. No law against banning weapons though.

[Fallguy]

So then an apartment owner can say that no African-Americans (or any race, whatever) can live in their apartment?

If the government didn't interfere with things.....then Yes, should be able to.

But the government has decided in certain situations they can limit what a property owner can do or even dictate what he must do. So the Civil Rights laws say that he can not deny rental based on race. But so far nothing has forced them to allow firearms.

[Guest 270win]

I would quietly keep my handgun in my room and forget about it. Don't tell anyone or mention it. A landlord cannot dig through your nightstand or dresser. You are leasing the room/apt and at the moment it is for you to use. When you carry your handgun to your vehicle, just conceal it. Most of the property managers don't know a lot and make stuff up. Pay your rent on time, conceal your gun, and you will be fine.

[QuietDan]

I'll be asking an attorney . . . .

^^^^^ This. ^^^^^^

[DaveTN]

So then an apartment owner can say that no African-Americans (or any race, whatever) can live in their apartment?

No he can’t; there are both Federal and state laws against that.

Due to the recent SCOTUS rulings he has a right to own a gun, and had he not knowingly signed a lease with a firearms clause he might have a case. However, the question would be, does the right to own a gun trump the rights of a property owner? There is also the issue of three other people living in the apartment; this is not a single owner issue. They will claim a right to safety. IMO, if it weren’t for the three other tenants, this would be a good test of the recent ruling by the SCOTUS that you have a right to own a gun, but it’s a state right to determine how, when, and where you carry it.

There are a couple of attorneys on here that handle gun cases; maybe they will weigh in on this.

[Guest BenderBendingRodriguez]

You need to quit obsessing about being able to sue the apartment complex because you can't have a gun and they are saying they don't have a duty to protect you. That is a very common provision, and it has little or nothing to do with reality. Their duties with respect to your safety cannot be waived, regardless of what they claim. This is not a duty to keep you 100% safe (an impossibility), but rather a duty to exercise reasonable care under the circumstances to keep the residents safe. If it's a high crime area, they should take more security precautions. If it's a low crime area, they can take fewer security precautions.

This has absolutely nothing to do with whether you can or cannot carry a gun, and is almost exactly the same for every business property.

You do not get to make certain claims or have certain claims bolstered if guns are prohibited on the property (well, you are free to try to bolster your claims with that bit of information, but it would be a fairly novel approach that I have not ever seen advanced in court).

As for whether the 2nd Amendment trumps this contract provision... it shouldn't. The Constitution tells the government what it can and cannot do. Your apartment complex is not the government. Ergo, the Constitution does not tell your apartment complex what it can and cannot do.

Any comparison to things like discrimination based on race or sex is a non-starter. Those protections are found, inter alia, in the Civil Rights Act. That is a federal law intended to apply to both the government and private businesses. Completely different animal.

[TMF]

So then an apartment owner can say that no African-Americans (or any race, whatever) can live in their apartment?

Now you're getting in to equal opportunity housing laws. My statement was more to illustrate how I can kick anyone off my property for any reason I want. Getting into housing laws, no, there are certain things you can't do. However, I think it's a stretch to compare denial of housing due to race and denial of housing due to firearms possession. These clauses most likely exist so that the property owner can't be held liable in civil court if someone is shot on their property. By putting in the lease that weapons aren't allowed it is an argument that can be used in defense of a civil suit.

With that, I'm sure there is a clause in there about illegal drugs possession. Now, considering the proximity to a college campus it would be safe to assume that the majority of apartments there have some marijuana in them.... I know it was that way when I was in college. Somehow no one's getting evicted for smoking a bowl every now and then.