What a friday night...

[Guest BenderBendingRodriguez]

I disagree with that statement... Government does a lot of stuff that isn't allowed under the Constitution and nobody challenges the issue all the time.

The problem is the violation is so minor, unless you're an attorney who is bored the cost of taking the police department to court of running the serial number is not cost effective... doesn't make it legal or right on the police departments part.

More likely it will get challenged as part of a criminal case. Just wait for someone to get in trouble because of something that turned up as a result of them running the serial numbers as part of a routine stop. When they move to suppress the evidence we will see how that turns out. At least under one set of conditions.

[JayC]

More likely it will get challenged as part of a criminal case. Just wait for someone to get in trouble because of something that turned up as a result of them running the serial numbers as part of a routine stop. When they move to suppress the evidence we will see how that turns out. At least under one set of conditions.

That is a much harder case to win though... That is the reason all the successful SCOTUS challenges to gun rights have come from people who weren't involved in criminal cases.

From my reading of court cases (lay person for sure) it seems to me that challenging a law as unconstitutional as a law abiding citizen who isn't charged with a crime in much easier than challenging the same law in criminal court as a defendant.

[Guest BenderBendingRodriguez]

That is a much harder case to win though... That is the reason all the successful SCOTUS challenges to gun rights have come from people who weren't involved in criminal cases.

From my reading of court cases (lay person for sure) it seems to me that challenging a law as unconstitutional as a law abiding citizen who isn't charged with a crime in much easier than challenging the same law in criminal court as a defendant.

You are generally mistaken. The reason most of the challenges come from people not involved in criminal cases has to do with the remedy being sought, not because it's more difficult or less difficult to proceed as part of a criminal case. Historically many major civil rights advances (and if you don't think 2nd Amendment questions are civil rights issues...) have been made by criminal defendants. People would intentionally violate a law to see whether it would be enforced or not. If it was enforced, they would then be able to challenge it. They were manufacturing test cases.

That's a fine way to proceed, but it's easier to seek an injunction these days, and you don't run the risk of incarceration if you fail.

The reason you're less likely to be successful as a criminal defendant in a random case is because you were not chosen to embody a certain set of highly favorable facts, and your attorney is not specifically focused on overturning that one particular law or practice. Also if you're talking about something like an injunction the legal standards are different.

I promise you, though, if someone ends up challenging this "practice" of running serial numbers to check for stolen weapons (and it's hard to say it's a practice, as it's not something that we hear about happening with any regularity whatsoever), it is going to be as part of a criminal case and they will be trying to get evidence that they were in possession of a stolen weapon suppressed. If that person is not authorized to carry they will probably lose. If that person is in possession of a valid HCP they would stand a very good chance of success. Of course, an HCP holder has far fewer reasons to be in possession of a stolen firearm...

[TMF]

People would intentionally violate a law to see whether it would be enforced or not. If it was enforced, they would then be able to challenge it. They were manufacturing test cases.

Civil disobedience. It works if an environment exists that is receptive to changing the laws.

[peejman]

Admit it, you were trying out your mall ninja Halloween costume, weren't you?

[Guest 240KAR]

That's why it's always best to conceal, even when walking in the mall. I'm sure you learned your lesson, if you like all the attention you received on friday then carry openly. I would assume that if you where in a foreign territory where inconspicuous behavior and concealment is a matter of survival you would be more diligent. Thankfully you don't have to (yet) but until then it's best to blend

I did have it concealed in a crossbreed supertuck just when I got out of the car my shirt came up a little.. and no I wasn't trying out a costume.. Just shopping in the mall.

[Guest WyattEarp]

How would you know, have you experienced it in the two weeks you have owned a handgun? Or are you going to reference internet stories?

Of course not. I'd do what any responsible journalist would do. First I would do my research, then seek out and interview people who have experience with anti-gun hysterics and situations and then write an article. And just to be objective, i'd interview some of the anti-gun hysterics just to display their lack of knowledge and intelligence.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

... and no I wasn't trying out a costume.. Just shopping in the mall.

Hi 240KAR.

Am certain peejman was just lighthearted joking. No harm intended. If you haven't seen it, the following link gives insight into the joke--

Shrine of the Mall Ninja » LonelyMachines

[peejman]

Hi 240KAR.

Am certain peejman was just lighthearted joking. No harm intended. If you haven't seen it, the following link gives insight into the joke--

Shrine of the Mall Ninja » LonelyMachines

Yes, I was kidding. Perhaps you need to conceal a little better. As I've stated before, most people wouldn't notice if you were on fire.

The police thing seems a bit odd. I'm curious as to who called them. If it was the mall security guy, why would he wait until after you left? He could have detained you at the mall (yes, I'm sure he's legally allowed to do that) and had the cops come there.

[Fallguy]

Yes, I was kidding. Perhaps you need to conceal a little better. As I've stated before, most people wouldn't notice if you were on fire.

The police thing seems a bit odd. I'm curious as to who called them. If it was the mall security guy, why would he wait until after you left? He could have detained you at the mall (yes, I'm sure he's legally allowed to do that) and had the cops come there.

Are you 100% sure? I know he can use citizen arrest powers and arrest you and hold you for the police. But I didn't think they could detain you (except under T.C.A. 40-7-116 for suspicion of theft) in general.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Fallguy

[peejman]

Are you 100% sure? I know he can use citizen arrest powers and arrest you and hold you for the police. But I didn't think they could detain you (except under T.C.A. 40-7-116 for suspicion of theft) in general.

Easy enough for him to say "I saw that lump under his shirt and thought he was trying to steal something... " or "he was acting suspiciously" or whatever other nonsense he needs to say to justify detaining him. You might find a lawyer to pursue it, but I really doubt any cop would give a rip that you think you've been illegally detained.

Personally, I'd rather have waited the extra 10 minutes and talked to the cops on the spot rather than deal with being pulled over.

[Fallguy]

Easy enough for him to say "I saw that lump under his shirt and thought he was trying to steal something... " or "he was acting suspiciously" or whatever other nonsense he needs to say to justify detaining him. You might find a lawyer to pursue it, but I really doubt any cop would give a rip that you think you've been illegally detained.

Personally, I'd rather have waited the extra 10 minutes and talked to the cops on the spot rather than deal with being pulled over.

Yeah, if the mall security really thought he was carrying illegally he could have asked to see his HCP and that could have been the end of it then...or should have been. I also agree that if LE was going to be involved, sooner the better and not getting pulled over.

I just wanting to say I don't think mall security can detain you just because they want to or not even for a violation of the law, unless they arrest you. ...and it's not a LEO that you need to give a rip, but an ADA. Yes they can say about anything...but if they can't reasonably back it up they could be in trouble.

Granted the chances are slim...but unless the physically grab and hold on to you....how they going to keep you there if you want to leave?

[MphsTiger1981]

From reading the play by play, it is far more likely than not the folks who complained to the security at the mall called you in. They probably called the police and reported a man with a gun. They probably gave the dispatcher your description, tag number, and your direction of travel. Upon receiving that call, the cops have no alternative but to pull you over and see what's up. Since the security cop at the mall dealt with you reasonably professionally, I doubt he would have an ax to grind past his conversation with you. Maybe before getting to the mall you unknowingly cut someone off in traffic, and they decided to get even with you once they saw your pistol while you were getting out of the car.

No disrespect intended, but maybe they thought you appeared too young to be able to have a permit, and thought the police needed to know about you. Just a thought.

[peejman]

Granted the chances are slim...but unless the physically grab and hold on to you....how they going to keep you there if you want to leave?

Back in the day when I worked at the mall, they'd tackle you, handcuff you, and drag you kicking and screaming back to their office to wait for the cops. I helped our store security guys do exactly that a couple times. But the lawyers ruined that fun.

However, if I was an unarmed mall cop I don't think I'd even confront someone who I thought might be illegally armed. I'd leave that to the pro's.

Having thought about it a little more, I agree with MphsTiger. Some bystander in the parking lot probably called it in. Again, I'm amazed that anyone noticed, much less called the law.

[TMF]

Back in the day when I worked at the mall, they'd tackle you, handcuff you, and drag you kicking and screaming back to their office to wait for the cops. I helped our store security guys do exactly that a couple times. But the lawyers ruined that fun.

However, if I was an unarmed mall cop I don't think I'd even confront someone who I thought might be illegally armed. I'd leave that to the pro's.

Having thought about it a little more, I agree with MphsTiger. Some bystander in the parking lot probably called it in. Again, I'm amazed that anyone noticed, much less called the law.

I'm all about security detaining someone they've witnessed them stealing, but if I'm minding my own business and Paul Blart decides he's going to try and subdue me I'm going to hurt him and continue to hurt him until such time that he decides it ain't worth it or the police show up.

[Guest uzzi]

Guys, the police check your car for it being stolen everytime you get pulled over and everytime a vigilant cop pulls up behind you and checks your tag. There was a gun related incident reported, so they checked the gun if it was stolen. I think the mall was unreasonable and I think you being reported to the police was unreasonable. But if I was an LEO and I pulled someone over, personally I would have been satisfied at the HCP, but they were being thorough.

[bubbadavis]

Guys, the police check your car for it being stolen everytime you get pulled over and everytime a vigilant cop pulls up behind you and checks your tag. There was a gun related incident reported, so they checked the gun if it was stolen. I think the mall was unreasonable and I think you being reported to the police was unreasonable. But if I was an LEO and I pulled someone over, personally I would have been satisfied at the HCP, but they were being thorough.

I can easily see the cops checking for a HCP. But they had no reason (based on what's been presented here) to suspect the gun was stolen.

[Guest WyattEarp]

Guys, the police check your car for it being stolen everytime you get pulled over and everytime a vigilant cop pulls up behind you and checks your tag. There was a gun related incident reported, so they checked the gun if it was stolen. I think the mall was unreasonable and I think you being reported to the police was unreasonable. But if I was an LEO and I pulled someone over, personally I would have been satisfied at the HCP, but they were being thorough.

i hate that! the other night i had a Rutherford County sheriff get right up on my ass tailgating me. a quick hard tap of my brakes perfectly timed with a car that decided to pull out in front of me and poke along, quickly remedied that. he almost ate my bumper when I hit the brakes. im sure if it hadn't been for the fact that a car pulled out in front of me, he'd have probably pulled me over, lol.

[Guest foister82]

Probably a nanny state fruitloop called it in and said you were high drunk and starting trouble. People do blow things way out of proportion to dispatch. I had a lady in my office last month that called the police because a lady had her 6-7 month old daughter out without a shirt on... She kept saying she was saving that child and I swear she believed it.

[Guest 240KAR]

Yes, I was kidding. Perhaps you need to conceal a little better. As I've stated before, most people wouldn't notice if you were on fire.

The police thing seems a bit odd. I'm curious as to who called them. If it was the mall security guy, why would he wait until after you left? He could have detained you at the mall (yes, I'm sure he's legally allowed to do that) and had the cops come there.

I knew it was a joke I had a laugh at it..... but yea I think it was the people who followed me out of the mall that called the police.. the security officer was sorry that he even had to say anything and made it clear he was the middle man and it was his job not his decision... nice guy. yeah I guess i'd better watch it when I get outta my car...

[True Grit]

I'll send letters to the mall and store managements, making them aware of the lost business this incident cost them.

They would probably just put up a gunbuster sign and pretty soon you will not be able to go into any stores in TN.

[DaveTN]

They would probably just put up a gunbuster sign and pretty soon you will not be able to go into any stores in TN.

I agree. They know the laws and they aren’t posted; leave them alone. But when someone is open carrying, or as in this case someone sees the gun and complains; they need to act accordingly. Leaving those of us who carry concealed alone is better than posting.

[Magiccarpetrides]

"Dude that Sucks!"

time to grow out the peach fuzz so you can "look old enough"

[QuietDan]

If this all got triggered because some nervous nellie thought you looked too young to be packing, laugh now and wait a few years -- you'll be glad in about 20 years when people guess low on your age.

[Guest 240KAR]

"Dude that Sucks!"

time to grow out the peach fuzz so you can "look old enough"

lol the thing is when the cops pulled me over I made a joke and said, I guess I should't have shaved today. They had a laugh at that one.