Question For the Instructors on the Forum

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

I know someone who took the permit class recently. I had issues with the length of the class because it was NOWHERE even close to the 8 hours TN mandates. Now I do understand certain areas of the class can be sped up (work instead of having a lunch break, etc.), but when the class itself takes MAX 4 hours (or less) total, that doesn't add up as kosher for me.

So what would happen if this class was inspected or checked out (whatever it is they do) by the TN authorities and they find them guilty of not running a proper class? Would the certificates they've issued up to that point be null and void, or would the students that participated be safe?

[Fallguy]

Good questions.....

[Guest Legally Armed]

I do not instruct any more. However, during the 1980's thru 1999, I was one of the few 'certified' instructors doing CCW courses in Tennessee and other states. I was the only Tennessee resident who was certified by the Kentucky Criminal Justice System to teach the Kentucky Concealed Deadly Weapons Course. In addition to military training, I also was certified by some of the largest training establishments in both law enforcment and the civilian sectors. I have worked with some of the highest profile trainers all over the USA and other countries. In the time frame of teaching CCW courses, I trained thousands of people. This is just some background data on me because I think it will be hard for an 'active' instructor to answer your questions without getting himself or herself in trouble with other instructors.

If any Tennessee Handgun Permit Course is conducted and the mandatory hours are not met, the state of Tennessee can and has, told the students who attended this type of training that they were required to re-take the training. This also includes paying a different school because the school who did the 1st training had their teaching certificate repealed.

The state of Tennessee from time to time does send undercover people to monitor classes. They are very few of these done. Normally, they send a trooper in the region or one of the employees from the handgun department to do an inspection. The required hours are 4 hours in the classroom and an additional 4 hours on the gun range. There is a 'outline' the instructor is required to meet and they can also include areas that they feel are beneficial to their students. However, one school in Nasvhille that takes two (2) days for their training, is mostly because the instructor cannot get all his curse words in and does not have enough time in a one day class to speak about himself. Thus, two days for his permit course.

Getting back on track, incidents have occurred in Tennessee where the people who attended sub standard training were told they had a short period of time to re-take the course, or their handgun permit would be revoked. In Shelby County there was a person employed by their Shelby County Fire Department who also owned a handgun school. He spent a lot of time selling his school certificates in bars around the Memphis area. He sold over 14 t undercove agents of both T.B.I. and D.O.S.. All his certificates were revoked and he spent some time in prision. In Kentucky similar situations have occurrd with law enforcement officers being sent to jail for similar incidents. Recently a Kentucky Sheriff has been charged with not provideing the mandatory training.

Requiring the four hours in the classroom and four hours on the gun range, gives the state of Tennessee standards that must be met before a certificate can be issued. An instructor might not touch on all the aspects that the state says an instructor must go over in their course but, it is very hard to pin down an instructor who does not meet all of the mandatory teaching elements. However, it is not too difficult to prove that the mandatory time elements were not met.

It was always my thinking that the course should not be difficult. As long as the student did not shoot me, they would pass [this almost happened more than a few times]. People must remember that the permit course is to allow a law abiding person to carry a handgun for self-protection. Why should it be hard to provide what some believe is already evident in the 2nd Amendment.

My teaching took in the areas of firearm safety, then the elements of close quarter combat skills, including weapon retention. This is because the majority of incidents will occur at a close distance and normally at dusk or at night. I thought that training should include some low light shooting but, this is something that a person who wants to carry a firearm for self-defense should seek out themselves. I could go on more but, I think I have answered the question your asked.

Concerned about where to take a course, ask the school or instructor where you are thinking about taking the course, to give you some names and telephone numbers of former students. When you speak to them, they will tell you what their thoughts are about the training they received.

Good luck and be SAFE.

Edited March 20, 2008 by Legally Armed
spelling

[dunndw]

I just went through the instructors course. as LA said...the required course is 4 hr classroom 4 hr range.

If the class doesn't meet spec...I'd think the state might revoke the issued permits. I was told of a school that taught with BB guns to keep the costs down...all the permits were revoked.

I don't think there's such a thing as too much training

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Well, I'll give my 2 cents... I really dont care what any other instructor's think of me, and let me say this first...Im not perfect, nor the best. But.... I wont name names, so please dont ask, but there are several schools that give complete courses in 2-4 hours total. And to be honest, this really ticks me off.... I have been teaching these classes (Tn Permit) in particular since 1993... I know of 4 schools right now that their instructors/owners came thru my class, which gave them the idea to start thiers.... they think its easy quick money(I wish)... One actually copied my lesson plan and booklet and used it as his work. I also know two Sheriffs dept's and one police Dept. that doesnt meet the States guidelines, they feel like they are above the law. I mean honestly why can they be allowed to compete with free commerce??? Can the State of Tn dept of transportation, or any county road dept. come and give me a bid and concrete my driveway... then how can a law enforcement entity legally compete with me???

Anyways that a whole other thing...

Back to the subject at hand, over the years I have left the gun range a many of times with my lips numb from the lead in the air and a headache that wouldnt quit.... sweaty and tired... ears ringing.... I used to teach a 10 hour course, we shot 150 rounds... but way back then the State told me I was teaching citizens too much, so because of liability we decided to keep it simple and teach exactly what the State mandates, explain the gray areas, and then teach the student whats going to keep them out of trouble. So far its worked really well... (knock on wood) never had a student thats had any kind of negative altercation with LE or been involved in a shooting. These classes usually takes a full 8 hours to do an average class size and do it right... and I dont tell 4-6 hours of old war stories either. I can tweak a class if they are all "shooters"... teach them more tactics, but all in all it usually involves common sense, safety, and the law.

So lets be honest for a bit... if any citizen wants a class thats doesnt meet all the state criteria, then they can find one... and its usually the cheaper ones too. And if that person goes that route and their instructor gets busted then they are up a creek. But think of this scenario... what if the student wasnt trained correctly and gets involved in a shooting... then what???

I say do it right the first time and dont worry about it. There are plenty of instructors out here doing it right, finding one shouldnt be a problem... that is if the citizen really want a good one.

Just ...IMHO... M2C...

Edited March 20, 2008 by GLOCKMEISTER

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

my class took about 7 hours and at the end that test your suppose to take we did it out loud everybody in the class got to answer a question the instructor said that no one could make a 100 we had to miss at least 1 or 2. this was ten years ago i dont know how he does it now

[Guest jaypee]

Keep doing it right, Phil. My hat's off to you. There's no excuse for second rate firearms training, so let the other guys take the hits.

JayPee

[BigPoppa]

Our course runs anywhere from 10-14 hours over the course of two days, not because of war stories, or sales pitches, or irrelevant stuff, but because that's how long it takes, I feel, to cover everything we need to for me, in good conscience, to feel like we got our students anywhere near ready for the gunfight.

I tried the one day class for a while, and we just couldn't fit everything in, and still be off the range by the assigned time (Smyrna NG Range). So we went to two days of training, and sometimes I feel like it's still not enough for some of these folks who come through.

To be honest, it's tough sometimes to compete with the one day schools, because unfortunately most people want to do the minimum they have to do to get that certificate for their HCP application.

But my theory is this....if your personal safety, and that of your family, is not worth getting off the couch one more day, then by all means attend a one day course with my blessings, and I hope it works out for you.

My comments are not meant in any way to denigrate or criticize any of the other HCP schools, or to imply that our school is better, etc. However, I will say with confidence that we put on one of the most thorough courses in Middle Tennessee, and I have taken the HCP course from four (4) of the other schools.

Now, to the OP...it is my understanding that random inspections, though rare, do occur and a school's approval could be rescinded if minimum (time) requirements were not being met, and that alumni of that school could be subject to their HCP's being revoked.

My advice is to check credentials of the HCP school staff, and get recommendations from former students.

[Guest GLOCKGUY]

But my theory is this....if your personal safety, and that of your family, is not worth getting off the couch one more day, then by all means attend a one day course with my blessings, and I hope it works out for you.

My comments are not meant in any way to denigrate or criticize any of the other HCP schools,

you said you do not mean to denigrate or criticize any of the other HCP schools what about all the CHP people that did take the one day course that you are calling lazy and dont care about there family. i took the one day course not because i could not get of my couch two days in a row but because it was the only place doing the class around here at the time

[The Rabbi]

However, one school in Nasvhille that takes two (2) days for their training, is mostly because the instructor cannot get all his curse words in and does not have enough time in a one day class to speak about himself. Thus, two days for his permit course.

Hmm, who could that be? I wonder... Can anyone Name That-

Anyway, I dont teach the class. I got certified as an NRA instructor with the idea that I might down the road. After being in the gun business and selling a few to people who were interested, there was no way I was going to be anywhere near these people with a loaded gun.

People will always try to "game the system" and shortchange students because it takes time and energy to do it right and if no one is looking, who cares? That's too bad.

So the moral of the story is buyer beware. Check reputations and interview instructors.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

To be honest, it's tough sometimes to compete with the one day schools, because unfortunately most people want to do the minimum they have to do to get that certificate for their HCP application.

But my theory is this....if your personal safety, and that of your family, is not worth getting off the couch one more day, then by all means attend a one day course with my blessings, and I hope it works out for you.

My comments are not meant in any way to denigrate or criticize any of the other HCP schools, or to imply that our school is better, etc. However, I will say with confidence that we put on one of the most thorough courses in Middle Tennessee, and I have taken the HCP course from four (4) of the other schools.

Now, to the OP...it is my understanding that random inspections, though rare, do occur and a school's approval could be rescinded if minimum (time) requirements were not being met, and that alumni of that school could be subject to their HCP's being revoked.

My advice is to check credentials of the HCP school staff, and get recommendations from former students.

Not denigrating or criticizing, really?

But, see heres my theory... In one day you can give the student exactly what the State says they have to know to receive their permit, we usually go over a little bit, but two days? From a liability standpoint why deviate from the mandatory outline and hours set forth by the State? What if you teach them more then you should in a permit course that is required for them to get their license and it winds up in court???? How can you defend it in court if you taught them some "tactics" that were used incorrectly and ended up getting them in trouble.

I say teach the course... don't go overboard... they can learn "tactics" that weren't mandated by law in a level 2-3 course of some kind. This takes allot of the liability of your shoulders as an instructor.

Btw.... Why did you take courses from 4 different schools???

In all my 15 years of teaching the permit course, I have never taken a course from another State instructor... I just don't understand the point. If you want ideas on how to run your course im sure it would be cheaper and less time consuming to just ask. I have always been willing to help out another instructor, im sure others out there feel the same way.

In short I choose to use what the State mandates in teaching using professional experience to effectively run that course of study. No offense to any civilian permit holders, but Im not training police officers or special forces... want that course, fine we can do that, but the State Handgun Permit course is what it is... its for a carry permit. And 8-10 hours is enough.

[highshot]

[strickj]

GLOCKMEISTER

Maybe hes one of the few people thats is still willing to go the extra mile for his customers to give them what they need to be safe.If given the choice to take your class or take his based on what I just read,I would take his.

[Marswolf]

I'm not a firearms instructor, nor do I play one on TV.

But by the time I took the Tennessee carry course, I had been training for 30+ years courtesy of my Uncle Samuel.

I'm not being critical of schools that really teach a lot of range-time firearms safety and technique to students who need that training, but some people really don't need it. Most people in our class ($50) were gun club members and knew a lot about handguns and how to shoot them. OTOH, we had the proverbial little old lady who came with her husband and hardly knew where the trigger was.

Frankly, few of us needed any time on the range except to put sufficient holes in the paper to meet state requirements.

Did we spend 4 hours on the range? Well...I think I shall remain silent on that matter.

But we did do more than four hours on the legal part. That is where most people need the time, IMHO. Look how many of us on a Tennessee specific gun board do not know the law. I'm not talking about gray areas, I mean the concrete specifics that are in Tennessee Code.

I'm not one who is going to denigrate the schools that don't follow the requirements to the letter. Nor do I think that everyone needs a multi-day course. There need to be different courses for people with different levels of shooting skills. One size fits all is not a good idea, as I see it.

My view is that a carry course should be a carry course - not a tactical course. Beginning shooters need more than the bare minimum and should take a more comprehensive course of study. But the basic carry course should be pretty much what the state says is required to get a permit. Assuming that all course participants are neophytes or need remedial training may not be the best idea.

From a personal standpoint I would never take a course that lasted more than one day. And I would (and did) look carefully at the cost of the course. I got everything I need for my $50.

In the end, those who have a carry permit need to practice to get the bullets to hit the target, and only the target if something happens. They also need to understand the law and know that the law may change every year. You can't get that skill and knowledge in any carry course of any length. That takes continuing practice and research. A gun school can't require that, but should encourage it.

[The Rabbi]

I have to agree that a course that is meant to satisfy the requirements for the Tn HCP should teach exactly what is mandated and no more. Anyone who wants additional training can easily find excellent trainers for basic through advanced pistol. The point of the course is to enable the student to obtain his HCP, not to hone his shooting skills.

THat said, whatever is taught in the course needs to be up to date and correct.

[Marswolf]

THat said, whatever is taught in the course needs to be up to date and correct.

That translates as, "Just ignore this state video we are required to show you."

[The Rabbi]

That translates as, "Just ignore this state video we are required to show you."

Mars, what in the video is wrong? Its been about 8 years since I saw it so dont remember it well but did think it was pretty clear.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

GLOCKMEISTER

Maybe hes one of the few people thats is still willing to go the extra mile for his customers to give them what they need to be safe.If given the choice to take your class or take his based on what I just read,I would take his.

I understand where you are coming from, but the State mandates we teach a certain way... two FULL days simply isnt it. Thats not a permit course. The required state outline is pretty specific and set up for 8-10 hours. If you are teaching two times whats mandated then you are giving allot more knowledge then the State requires or wants you to do. This, I have been told by some of the best in the industry, opens you up for future liability. If that particular instructor isnt teaching more then is mandated then he's filling some of that time up making up stories and BSing your way thru it to simply take up time. Then they can claim, "We teach two days and our courses are better"... when thats simply not true.

If you want the BEST TN PERMIT CLASS OUT THERE... Ck these guys out... Its like GUNSITE IN TENNESSEE and yes they are my completion, but the truth is the truth... I consider them equal to or better then our PERMIT class. And extremely better with their other classes.

http://www.prifirearmstraining.com/instructors.html

.... So yep, I think I can say that without shooting myself in the foot... they are the best... and they teach an 8 hour course called Handgun 1(Tn permit course) its the same thing we teach... and were allot closer.

Both our classes Meets and exceeds Tennessee's training requirements for a handgun carry permit. The course covers handgun nomenclature, firearms safety, loading and unloading, marksmanship, proper presentation of the weapon, safe and effective weapons handling, and legal issues affecting the armed citizen. Its simply what the state mandates we ALL teach.

Now im not saying all theses two day schools are bad schools, but if they are really "teaching" then they are teaching "tactics" the state didnt/doesnt intend to be part of the course. The state course was set up to be all about safety and the law. Its about teaching the novice thats never shot before. If you have a class full of shooters then you can take them a little farther at your own descretion... but not full tactical. An good instructor can make the 8-10 hour course as difficult as he/she deems necessary, and those whom need failing get failed.

In closing if you want the extra mile... we can do it, and there are lots of great instructors that can make you a special forces super ninja defense robot... but those things shouldnt be covered in a permit class built for the beginner.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Mars, what in the video is wrong? Its been about 8 years since I saw it so dont remember it well but did think it was pretty clear.

whast not wrong... it would take less time to cover whats right...

[Marswolf]

Mars, what in the video is wrong? Its been about 8 years since I saw it so dont remember it well but did think it was pretty clear.

Some stuff is trivial, like showing a Glock and saying it is 357 Magnum. There is also a lack of trigger discipline in at least one place.

The worse thing is that this is an old video made before the law change and it says you can not carry where alcohol is sold - not served, just sold.

I've forgotten a lot of the problems. I'll have to go back and view it again.

Oh yeah, it's excruciatingly boring.

Edited March 20, 2008 by Marswolf

[GhostDog]

I am not a TN certified instructor and I don't teach the permit class (just for clarification). I help a friend (as an RSO) who does teach the permit class and has taught other classes for many years. My experience mirrors Glockmeister's.

If someone whats to actually learn, they will seek out and take a course. Most people just what to do the minimum and get a CCW. If an individual student whats to know something or appears likely to be receptive, it is worth the effort to try to show him/her a few things that might help him/her out. Most people don't care and show no interest in learning anything extra. In addition to this, the instructor has to teach to the lowest common denominator (crawl, walk, run). Remember, if it weren't mandated by the state, 99% of those folks wouldn't even be at the permit class.

Also, anything you teach beyond the state's lesson plan is "on you". The people at the permit class are not the same as the ones at a pistol course. Their motivations and goals are completely different, as is, in all probably, their level of experience/knowledge. The old saw "keep it simple" comes to mind.

A lot of these folks think they know all they need already. At the other end of the spectrum are the ones that don't really want to be "gun guys/gals", they just want to get the minimum and be able to carry a gun for protection. The 70 year old guy w/ a 32S&W revolver that hasn't been fired in 20 years isn't going to "get it" any more than the 22 year old who bought a SIG and doesn't know which lever is the decocker and which is the slide lock. It may sound jaded, but it's the truth.

My friend offers a basic pistol class and lets everyone at the permit class know this. It is a good follow-up to the permit course and is generally offered at a discount price to folks who have taken the permit course. In addition to this, everyone who takes the basic pistol class can then shoot in bi-monthly "tactical" pistol matches at the range. 99% of the students never take up the offer and show absolutely no interest. Go figure.

I understand strickj's opinion but I have to disagree. If you want a pistol course, seek out a good one and take it. To look for that kind of training at a permit course is folly and probably won't be what you are really looking for.

To wrap this up, I guess I'll just sum it up like this: a lot of folks will say that an instructor's permit class was "great" or that they really "enjoyed it and learned a lot". But... how many come back and take other courses?

[Smith]

Personally I was more than a little annoyed at even having to take a class. If I had gone and had to go through a bunch of extra stuff, I would have been even more hacked off. That being said ASP in Joelton did a good job of keeping it practical and helpful and covering what we needed to. Is is a good idea? In theory it is for certain people, for other's it is fairly insulting.

To be honest, if I have to worry about weapons retention or obstacle shooting then I'm in more of a pickle than some 8 or 24 hr course would give me. Besides I don't think a one time course in tactics is going to do much good a few months or year(s) later if and when i have to use my gun. IMHO.

I take the extra stuff, kinda like the government telling me I have to have my kids decked out in full body armor to ride their bike!

[Guest Len]

I'm certified to teach the state permit course and am NRA-certified in 5 disciplines, including pistol. I generally agree w/Glockmeister.

As for the original question, if the state investigated, they could make the person in question re-take the class and revoke their permit. The law is pretty clear on the requirements, and they are MINIMUM requirements. My TN Carry Permit class (Actually NRA Basic Pistol + additional elements required for TN) runs 10-12 hours depending on the needs of the students, size of the class, etc. The school I work for has been inspected by the state twice in the last 2 years and has passed each time.

As Rabbi said, "caveat emptor." A little research beforehand will ensure a wise investment and a quality class.

It is also a wise idea to continue one's training and practice beyond the basic course. There are quality instructors and schools represented on this board.

[saintsfanbrian]

When I took my class (4 years ago) there were a LOT of people in it that had to do re-takes. The class where they took it did not stay the required 8 hours. Our instructor stated plainly at the beginning of the day that we would be there for 8 hours of class time. We would get a couple of breaks and an hour for lunch.

Unfortunately the grill wasn't opened that day so we couldn't eat on site.

Anyway. At the end of a 9.5 hour day I had my certificate to take to the state.

The instructor was a Jackson cop.

[BigPoppa]

GLOCKMEISTER

Maybe hes one of the few people thats is still willing to go the extra mile for his customers to give them what they need to be safe.If given the choice to take your class or take his based on what I just read,I would take his.

Thanks strick !

Btw.... Why did you take courses from 4 different schools???

For the same reason I take any other training. The same reason you (and I) go to PRI. To learn, to stay fresh, to get another look at stuff and see what I can use to better myself and the product I put out for sale. And sometimes, to see what doesn't work so well.

I say teach the course... don't go overboard... they can learn "tactics" that weren't mandated by law in a level 2-3 course of some kind. This takes allot of the liability of your shoulders as an instructor.

We don't teach a lot of tactics, but we do shoot more than 48 rounds. We spend more time on how to AVOID a gunfight, and how to stay out of harm's way in the first place. We talk a lot about stuff like "If you wouldn't go there without a gun, don't go there WITH a gun !" Is that kind of material in the state outline ? No. Is it important ? I submit that it is crucial, and reduces my liability as an instructor, not increase it.