.223 Bolt Paper Punchers

[DaveTN]

I need a .223 Paper Puncher for the range. I’m not a hunter.

I have a Remington 700 VLS in .308 wearing a Leupold 6.5X20X40, and I’m going to keep it, but would like to find a similar center fire set-up that would be cheaper to shoot. I picked the .223 because of the cost and availability of ammo.

I’m not going to spend the money I spent on the .308; I can’t justify it for what I want it for.

I have plenty of experience with .223 AR’s (and have an M&P-15T now) but have never had a .223 bolt.

I’ve been looking for used and it doesn’t appear that .223 is very popular in bolts, so I may need to buy new.

If I’m going to buy new I’m wondering about Savage. I know their quality has jumped significantly in the last few years and many here use them. What models should I be looking at? I would like a heavy barrel, but might be able to get by without it.

Any other ideas? The only requirement I have that is set in stone is that it has to be American made.

Thanks, for any recommendations.

[Markwondi]

I would suggest the CZ 527. I have one that will put 10 rds covered by a quarter at 100 yards. The single set trigger of the CZ's is awfully nice for a range toy too.

[mikegideon]

Savage is big bang for the buck. Can't go wrong. Just might outshoot a 700 too. Get the good trigger.

[Westwindmike]

Another vote for the Savage. I have a model 12 Varmint and it's a tack driver.

[Dolomite_supafly]

If you are wanting something tactical or may want to go that way in the future then look at the Remingtons or even the Savages. Both have a ton of aftermarket support in the way of stocks, triggers and other gear.

I personally like Savages because they are easy to work on. There is no need to have a gunsmith swap barrels or calibers. I swap my barrels in about 10 minutes and can do a complete swap of calibers in under 20 minutes. For a Remington you are talking a lot more down time on a lathe. Even most factory take off Remington barrels need to have the headspace set on a lathe. The reason Savages don't is because they use a barrel nut to lock the headspace in while the Remingtons use a shoulder on the barrel itself.

The first time I had a smith swap a Savage barrel is cost me $30 and that was about 4 years ago. Swapping a barrel on a Remington cost a couple of hundred dollars at the same smith.

The tools to do your own swap are a $25 wrench and a set of headspace gauges. I set headspace using brass I have sized.I tighten the Savage barrel donw onto the sized brass until snug then lock the headspace in using the barrel nut. You can't do that with a Remington. It makes the brass last longer because it is the minimum headspace for what you are shooting.

Dolomite

[DaveTN]

To give an idea of the price range… I’m looking at the Remington 700 SPS at $525 or the SPS Tactical at $581, new delivered. I’m not familiar with the Savage alphabet soup; what would be the competitors to those.

I don’t really care about “Tactical†but that’s the cheapest set-up with a heavy barrel. A walnut or laminated stock would be fine with me; I just don’t want to pay extra for it.

I do my own gun repairs, but I won’t be swapping barrels. If it’s something beyond my ability I’ll send it to the factory.

[mikegideon]

This is the first time I've looked at bolt guns in awhile. You may not be able to beat the price of that SPS with an apples-to-apples Savage.

[Dolomite_supafly]

This is the first time I've looked at bolt guns in awhile. You may not be able to beat the price of that SPS with an apples-to-apples Savage.

+1

Savages used to be a great value but they have been creeping up in price over the years. Most new Savages are goig to cost more than their Remington counterparts. For this reason I have been looking real hard at Remingtons lately.

The biggest seller for me is there are now aftermarket Remington barrels that use the barrel nut setup like a Savage. They run about $300 but you get a match barrel and that cost is exactly the same as one for a Savage. That way I can do caliber swaps just like with a Savage providing the bolt heads are the same because a Remingtons bolt head isn;t swapable like on a Savage.

Dolomite

[Okey]

I do my own gun repairs, but I won’t be swapping barrels. If it’s something beyond my ability I’ll send it to the factory.

After you swap your first savage barrel you can do it in 5 or 10 mins. If you get in my area stop by and we will swap out a few barrels. I will warn you it is addicting.

Okey

[quietguy]

Take a look at the stock on the SPS Tactical, and pay attention to the forearm. I have a AAC SPS Tactical in .308, and that is the one weakness of the system. If you use a bipod or a bag towards the front end of the forearm, the stock has enough flex to contact the barrel. Otherwise, it is a fantastic rifle and I plan to replace the stock soon (just too many choices out there).

If I were in your shoes, I would definitely lean towards the Savage or CZ. Both should be in the same price range as the Remington, and a little better rifle. Out of the box, I would pick the CZ. If it is a platform you want to build on, then Savage or Remington would be the way to go. CZ also specs their rifles to the 556 spec.

[Dolomite_supafly]

Take a look at the stock on the SPS Tactical, and pay attention to the forearm. I have a AAC SPS Tactical in .308, and that is the one weakness of the system. If you use a bipod or a bag towards the front end of the forearm, the stock has enough flex to contact the barrel. Otherwise, it is a fantastic rifle and I plan to replace the stock soon (just too many choices out there).

If I were in your shoes, I would definitely lean towards the Savage or CZ. Both should be in the same price range as the Remington, and a little better rifle. Out of the box, I would pick the CZ. If it is a platform you want to build on, then Savage or Remington would be the way to go. CZ also specs their rifles to the 556 spec.

Every Savage 223 I have measured is good to go with 5.56 as well. Not saying all are but the ones I have measured have been 100% long enough for 5.56.

Dolomite

[quietguy]

Every Savage 223 I have measured is good to go with 5.56 as well. Not saying all are but the ones I have measured have been 100% long enough for 5.56.

Dolomite

That has been my observation with the Remington (I think it was a SPS Varmint, but may have been another model) and Savage as well. Just wish they would mark the barrels as such.

[Guest HCRoadie]

My 700 in .223

[xd shooter]

Would you be interested in a 22-250?

[mikegideon]

My 700 in .223

THAT's how they're supposed to work! My varmint AR shoots about like that, maybe a little tighter with decaf. Of course, the ammo was a little over a dollar a round.

[Okey]

My Short Range Salvage .223

[Caster]

I have a CZ 527 Varmint. I love it. Accuracy with the proper load is about like Okey's dime above me. ^

[mikegideon]

Yep. This thread just made me order bullets. Got some nosler skunk slappers, and some 77gr SMK's.

BTW, not a bolt gun, but...

Edited October 17, 2011 by mikegideon

[mikegideon]

Here's my pucher. The target above was done with factory ammo loaded with 69gr SMK's, before I did the Final Finish treatment on the barrel. The 69's are a tad light for that barrel. I plan to work up a load with the 77gr SMK's. I expect the group to shrink.

[Okey]

This was shot with my longer range Salvage with a 8 twist Wylde .223 with a 80 AMax. The wind blows the 80 around pretty bad at longer distances.

[mikegideon]

Now you're just making us look bad . My AR won't go much past 800 without going subsonic, and i refuse to use anything that won't fit in the mag. The wind can even be a factor at 100 yards, when you're talkin' the tiny groups we've been showing here.

[Okey]

I didn't say anything about how many rounds it took to get sighted in on the plate. I was using the Amax because it is easier to see where you are hitting.

I would like to know how the 77 SMK work for you. The 80 Bergers and the 77 SMK shoot the best in mine.

Get them loaded up and come shoot with me. I have access to a 700 and 880 yard berm.

[mikegideon]

I'll take you up on that. I have one box of Black Hills loaded with 77smk's. I have 100 more bullets coming from Midway, but don't have a load worked up. The Black hills stuff plays real nice. My whimpy AR should do fine with the 700 yard berm. The 880 is iffy because of that sound barrier issue. :-)

[mikegideon]

BTW... I'm open for some 77gr SMK load data. I have CCI 41 primers, and a bunch of brass.

EDIT: Found a load. 24gr of Reloader 15. I'll work up a ladder and bump it in.

Edited October 17, 2011 by mikegideon

[Dolomite_supafly]

I have found some extra FPS and lower SD with Wolf SRM primers. As long as you aren'nt into your max already you should be good. Using SRM's with 24.5 grains of Varget, which is a very low powered load, I am getting ~2950 fps using 69 SMK's out of a 26" barrel. I was loading right up against my lands and getting decent results. Same everything except using CCI 400's results in velocities in the ~2750 fps range.

One day I was working up some loads and had miserable results so I decided to try some rounds for my AR which were loaded to mag length. The groups dropped substantially. Before I was getting a best of sub .4" groups and the new groups are sub .25". My velocity dropped to ~2850 with the jump.

Not saying it will be the same for you but I didn't change any load data other then the primers and got tighter groups and faster fps.

Using the 2950 load I can get to 800 before dropping below the sound barrier. With the 2850 load I can get to 775 before dropping below the speed of sound. It also depends on the weather conditions. Those numbers are what came out of my ballistics program that so far has been right on the money as long as my human error in inputing info is correct.

This is also with a put together Savage. Actually a Stevens 200 with all the usual mods.

I used to have a 550 yard range to use until there was a mix up between the owner and a few of us. Now I don't have access to a long enough range to stretch it. Because of that I do a lot of rimfire shooting at up to 200 yards.

BTW Mike, is that the upper you got during our conversations? If it is give me the details again. I am looking for a longer barrel for use with mine.

Dolomite