A little something for the liberal neighbors

[mikegideon]

Hahaha, well that just wraps it up, don't it?

Apparently not

[NextExit]

Then make it a safe harbor provision. That way you know you're in the clear if it's 30 or fewer, but you're always free to make your case that you were still only engaged as a private seller if you need to sell 40. There will, of course, be the risk that you're unsuccessful in making that argument, but the argument would be yours to make.

NextExit has said that it's his right to sell as many guns as he wants until his residence sets a reasonable cutoff for dealers, and defend himself in court if someone decides that he's actually acting as a dealer. Of course, he then goes immediately on to miss the point and talk about the number of arms you can bear (which is not the subject of this discussion). I agree with this completely. But that doesn't mean it makes no sense for someone to actually set out what that number is. You know, so you can either avoid the hassle of going to court in the first place OR so you can know the precise number of guns you need to try to sell to make a test case of yourself. Again, totally your decision. The point remains that putting in either a bright line rule or safe harbor provisions at 30 (which, let's be real, is a LOT of guns for a non-dealer individual to be selling at any one time) would add a lot of clarity to some pretty ambiguous law carrying pretty harsh penalties.

So you don't have a problem with a person buying 100 guns but you have a problem with someone selling 31 guns? And what's this "30 is a LOT of guns for a non-dealer to be selling"? Once again, your opinion. You want what you think is "common sense" gun legislation then call your elected officials.

[NextExit]

Again, this has nothing to do with preventing you from buying as many guns as you want from a gun show or about being able to own as many guns as you want. This is about distinguishing between private and commercial sales.

So buy all you want at once but don't sell them all at once??? I see nothing accomplished by this!

[Guest BenderBendingRodriguez]

So you don't have a problem with a person buying 100 guns but you have a problem with someone selling 31 guns? And what's this "30 is a LOT of guns for a non-dealer to be selling"? Once again, your opinion. You want what you think is "common sense" gun legislation then call your elected officials.

So buy all you want at once but don't sell them all at once??? I see nothing accomplished by this!

First, let me be clear that this 30 gun limit was not my idea, I was not the first to mention it, and I had never visited the site it came from prior to its mention in this thread.

That said, I don't think it's a bad idea -- at least not in the form of some sort of safeharbor provision in the federal law. I don't care how many guns you want to buy. I really don't. But if you would read some of the earlier posts you might understand why this hypothetical provision has nothing to do with your ability to buy guns. The provision would simply define the point at which you go from being a private seller to a commercial seller.

There are laws dictating the hoops commercial sellers have to jump through lest they risk severe punishments. There is a loophole for private sellers, but the description of what constitutes a private seller leaves much to be desired. If you think you're a private seller and so do not jump through all the normal hoops, and then it turns out you are considered a commercial seller, you're pretty well hosed.

Adding some clear guidance as to the cutoff point for private versus commercial sales gives you a good way to know what sort of risk you're taking by not jumping through the hoops.

While the purpose of the hoops may or may not be to "keep guns out of the hands of bad guys," adding guidance on this particular issue has nothing to do with keeping the guns in or out of anyone's hands. It's about you being able to avoid hefty fines and/or prison and/or attorney fees over your interpretation of an ambiguous loophole vs. a prosecutor's interpretation of that loophole. To a lesser agree it's also a tax issue (as the tax treatment of sales + FFL fees aren't wholly absent from the realities of the situation). But it is decidedly not about whether it's ok to buy 100 guns or sell 31 guns. It's about whether selling 31 guns exceeds the scope of "but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms."

[NextExit]

First, let me be clear that this 30 gun limit was not my idea, I was not the first to mention it, and I had never visited the site it came from prior to its mention in this thread.

That said, I don't think it's a bad idea

Just my opinion but when I see the words "gun limit" that's a red flag.

the description of what constitutes a private seller leaves much to be desired.

Then vote for someone to change it. But until a law has been passed that says I can only sell X amount of guns in X amount of time, then so be it.

It's obvious that we're not going to change each others mind. I'll agree to disagree. But I'm glad you put your views out there because I only know a few liberals and they are anti-gun. And by now they would be calling me every name in the book.....

[Guest BenderBendingRodriguez]

Then vote for someone to change it. But until a law has been passed that says I can only sell X amount of guns in X amount of time, then so be it.

Last thing I'm going to say before dropping it. Probably. But that's exactly what the point of this discussion was. It was started by a proposed law change found on that website. The idea being that someone would pass a law saying that you could only sell X amount of guns at a single gun show and still be considered a private seller. Somehow it got taken to mean that I was saying you should only actually sell that number rather than that I think it would be wise if the statute were changed to give us a safe harbor for what the limits on private sales are and/or that not all "gun control" regulations are there to prevent you from bearing arms.

That law change has not been made. I don't anticipate that it will be. You are free to sell as many guns at a gun show as you'd like. But if you sell a lot you are running the risk (however small) of being deemed a commercial seller rather than a private seller. And that would end poorly for you.

Tangentially, I think everyone has done a mostly good job of keeping things civil. There were some exceptions, but fewer than expected. I don't think anyone expected to change anyone else's mind, and that can lead to a "who cares" attitude in debate, letting things get ugly quickly. That, if nothing else, is a pretty big victory for all of us.

[Guest pfries]

Tangentially, I think everyone has done a mostly good job of keeping things civil. There were some exceptions, but fewer than expected. I don't think anyone expected to change anyone else's mind, and that can lead to a "who cares" attitude in debate, letting things get ugly quickly.That, if nothing else, is a pretty big victory for all of us.

:clap:

Edited October 17, 2011 by pfries

[quietguy]

Tangentially, I think everyone has done a mostly good job of keeping things civil. There were some exceptions, but fewer than expected. I don't think anyone expected to change anyone else's mind, and that can lead to a "who cares" attitude in debate, letting things get ugly quickly. That, if nothing else, is a pretty big victory for all of us.

I agree. You and I will never see eye to eye, but I respect your opinion (however wrong it may be).