Carrying a "Compact" 1911 - "Advanced" carry gun?

[Viracnis]

Hi guys. Relatively new to these forums but I've been reading a lot of the archives (about 80 pages in, actually). As I said in my other post - thanks for a great resource!

Until recently I was mostly concerned with long guns but my wife had more exposure to handguns growing up so she is more comfortable with them. At her urging, I will be taking my class and applying for my THCP in mid-November, so I've been reading up on it. Over the past few months I've been working with an instructor (and close, personal friend) and I've gotten very comfortable with them - moreso even than long guns in some situations.

That being said, I'm looking at the RIA 1911 Compact as my carry gun. I've not had the opportunity yet to shoot it, but I have other "compact" 1911 and I've been more comfortable with the .45ACP than any other caliber including 9mm and .380. When I mentioned to my friend (and instructor) that I'd be purchasing a 1911 Compact to carry he reacted very strongly - saying that "A 1911 is a more advanced carry gun" and that I should start with "another .45" instead. When I asked him what and why it was a "advanced" gun he simply said "it is complicated". In my 29 years of life - 10 of which spent as good friends with this US Army Special Forces instructor - I've learned that usually means "because I read it on the internet".

So internet, give me your thoughts on what he meant by that? I've read many of the archives, as I said, and seen a lot of the arguments about weight being a concern. I'm a big guy (6'2" ~270lbs) so I wear loose/baggy clothes anyway, so I don't think size will be a concern with IWB at about 3-4" in a good holster with a good belt(already purchased several good belts based on recommendations here). And I know the weight may be a factor - but hell, I'll toss suspenders on under my shirt if need be. Are there other concerns beside size and weight that I'm missing? Is the 1911 frame somehow unsafe to carry for a beginner? More prone to un-intentional discharges? Surely with guns around that have no safety but good gun practices, one that has TWO safety mechanisms (the thumb safety and the grip safety) shouldn't pose any increased safety concern.

So I give you this long winded post to ask: Is my dear friend full of hot air?

Edited October 13, 2011 by Viracnis

[Dolomite_supafly]

As a person who has carried a 1911 for the majority of my life I will say a few things.

A 1911 is a very safe pistol. It has multiple safeties That all must be disengaged in order for the gun to fire. The thumb safety physically locks the sear to prevent the hammer from being released even if the gun is dropped. The grip safety prevents the trigger from being pulled. It is possible for the gun to go off from a drop if the thumb safety is disengaged and the grip safety isn't depressed. The thumb safety locks the sear in place but the grip safety only prevents the rearward movement of the trigger but has no contact withthe sear. The thumb safety is the most important safety on a 1911.

He might be saying it is complicated because the thumb safety must be disengaged before the gun will fire. This creates an additional step when compared to most striker fired pistols like a Glock. But with that thumb safety you also get an additional measure of safety most striker fired pistols can't achieve. Most striker fired pistol rely on a split trigger for their safety. The split trigger can and does get accidentally pressed resulting in a unintentional discharge, especially while reaching for the gun without having eyes on the gun. I have carried a Glock as well and never felt comfortable reaching for it in a dark enviroment unless it was in a holster. With my 1911 the thumb safety is applied so I can grab away without the same worries as I had with the Glock. I am still cautious but not the same as with my Glock.

Now with a 1911 there is only one way to carry it. That is with a round in the chamber, the hammer cocked and the thumb safety engaged. Any other way either is unsafe or creates additional steps you may not be able to do when the stress of a life and death situation arises.

I have been around as well as taught people how to shoot the 1911. There are those who think a hammer down on a loaded chamber is safe but it isn't. I have witnessed on several occassion people attempting to cock the gun only to have the hammer slip and the gun go off. This is especially true with the commander style hammers. This can happen even if the grip safety isn't depressed. Additionally, most times the user doesn't have a firm grip on the gun and can hurt the shooter.

As far as size goes it isn't that hard to conceal. I am 5'8" and aobut 190 lbs (now) and have no problems hiding a full size 1911. It is all about the holster. You do not need a IWB holster to hide a 1911. I use a OWB holster I made and it is comfortable, hides the gun easily and is draws well.

Dolomite

[Lumber_Jack]

My first carry gun was/is a Kimber 4" 1911. Nothing "advanced" about it. A couple of things you need to keep in mind.

1) it has a manual thumb safety, so practice drawing and disengaging the safety is crucial. You don't want to think when under stress, just needs to be muscle memory.

2)1911s can be picky with magazines and ammo. So I would shoot no less than 200 rounds of my self defense rounds to ensure reliability.

Other than that just know how the gun works, and go for it.

[Lumber_Jack]

Obviously Dolomite is faster on the trigger and more experienced than I.

[Dolomite_supafly]

I will address one more thing.

I will bet there are more unintentional discharges with a split trigger or DAO gun than with a cocked and locked 1911. As a matter of fact I am sure of it. Even though the 1911 has been around for 70 years longer they probably have less.

The 1911 is as safe if not safer for a beginner than any DAO or split trigger gun design.

Dolomite

[Lumber_Jack]

Oh and my pants do droop sometimes even with a quality belt and holster, unless the belt is so tight it cuts you in half. I just pull them up like anyone else and it's no big deal.

[MacGyver]

In this case, I'd bet that "complicated" simply means "I'm more comfortable with striker fired guns, and you should be, too". While a 1911 does have more steps in it's manual of arms, it is a very safe weapon.

That said, as someone who regularly carries a government sized 1911 with a light attached (6'0" 145lbs), carrying a 1911 comes with a commitment:

1. You have to get to know the manual of arms, and train with your weapon. While this should go without saying for any weapon, a 1911 isn't point-and-shoot like a Glock.

2. Modern 1911s have some pretty tight tolerances. The RIAs are probably some of the loosest made, and they're still pretty tight. You really need to be meticulous about your maintenance in ways that you don't necessarily have to worry about with say, a Glock. Pocket lint and dirt mixed with grease and sweat can cause many picky 1911s major problems. You have to be strict about your maintenance.

3. A lot of people tweak their 1911s without really knowing what they're doing. I guess it's because of the ubiquity of the platform, but everyone's first action with a 1911 seems to be to trade something out. Simply look at any "my new 1911" thread on here to see evidence of this. I'm not saying this is bad - my 1911s are custom as well - but when trading something out, you have to be committed to returning to the range and function testing.

The 1911 is my favorite platform. I like shooting the rough equivalent of a flying ashtray. But, it does require a commitment. Think of it as the MG or Triumph of the gun world.

BTW... With an AresGear Ranger belt and a Raven Concealment Phantom LC holster, my pants don't sag a bit.

[Guest luvmyguns]

Whichever firearm you choose the big thing is to practice with it.

Make sure the firearm is unloaded, put your holster on where you plan on wearing it and go throw the whole process of drawing your weapon until it is second nature. Because in a life or death situation you will not have time to think about where your firearm is or flipping the safety, you have to rely on muscle memory.

[Will Carry]

A 1911 is slim and really conceals easily. You will have no problem concealing it. The 1911 will give you good service as it has for our troops for many decades. I have a Colt Government with a 5 inch barrel that is more comfortable to carry than my Glocks or Springfields. It's the single stack magazine that makes it easy to hide. Good luck with your RIA.

The only thing complicated is that you have to keep in cocked, with the safety on. When you draw the pistol you must make sure it doesn't snag on your shirt and you have to thumb the safety off after it clears your holster and is pointed at the threat. This does require practice, but that's the fun of it. You will probably never draw your weapon in self defense but you will practice all the time. The 1911 is fun to shoot and fun to tinker with. That being said my 1911 has never been modified. It's just like it came in the box. It has never jammed or failed to go bang. i did put some Crimson Trace laser grips on it.....very cool.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Will Carry

[Dolomite_supafly]

+1

It is estimated it takes 3,000-5,000 repetitions before it is committed to muscle memory. The more complex the movement the more repetitions it takes. And with that start slow without ammo and make sure you are doing it correctly otherwise you will commit bad habits to memory.

When I started carrying my 1911 again I spent 30 minutes a day practicing drawing, aiming, clicking the safety off and firing. I would practice in front of my television until my wife said she had enough. I would mentally tell myself " next blue shirt" or "next blonde" and when they came on screen I would go through the steps. This was after spending a lot of time getting the mechanics of it down by drawing and firing at a blank wall.

And this was after carrying a 1911 for a lot of years then switching back over from a Glock I carried for only 3 years. I had to go back and learn everything again.

Once you are comfortable with what you have practiced without ammo then go live. Practice drawing and firing at targets. But as with the dryfiring start out very slow and slowly build speed on the skills you gained from dry firing. You are not looking to break and speed records.

During the live fire practice is where you start making sure your firearm is carry worthy. I would consider at least 200 trouble free rounds the minimum and that is with your carry ammo. I would shoot a few hundred rounds of break in ammo, clean the gun well then fire 200 of your carry rounds. If you make it through the 200 carry rounds without an issue I would say you are good to go. And although you may not be able to I always fire 3-5 rounds through my weapon after cleaning to ensure everything is working properly. Some amy say this is not needed with a Glock but I consider it madatory with any new carry gun.

And when practicing remember slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

If you are new to the 1911 or pistols in general I am sure there is someone on the board close to you that can help you out with technique. If you are ever in the Knoxville area I would be glad to spend a little time with you to make sure you get a good base to build upon.

Dolomite

[A.J. Holst]

Regarding carry, I am 5'8", 160# - 165# and have carried a Commander-style and currently carry a CZ 75B with extra mags.

The weight doesn't bother me.

With the right belt, holster, cover shirt and carry position, you can (reasonably) comfortably carry about anything.

BTW - Dolomite is 100% serious about his offer - take him up on it if possible. He did a little tuning on my AC Commander and has an AWESOME on-property (like right off the front porch) shooting range. G - we need to get together soon!

Edited October 12, 2011 by Gotthegoods

[A.J. Holst]

Regarding carry, I am 5'8", 160# - 165# and have carried a Commander-style and currently carry a CZ 75B with extra mags.

The weight doesn't bother me.

With the right belt, holster, cover shirt and carry position, you can (reasonably) comfortably carry about anything.

BTW - Dolomite is 100% serious about his offer - take him up on it if possible. He did a little tuning on my AC Commander and has an AWESOME on-property (like right off the front porch) shooting range. G - we need to get together soon!

[Guest HvyMtl]

The RIA 1911 is a good firearm. It is inexpensive due to its place of manufacture (when I last checked the Philippines) and process of manufacture. I would rely on it. And will be looking at it as a replacement for my present carry. (Bersa Thunder ultra compact .45 - a better gun in 9mm than .45... In actuality, if you went with 9mm, I would be suggesting the newer Bersa Thunder Pro ultra compact as a good first carry.)

Browning design based firearms are good choices, too.

Crucial point: If you do not like the firearm, it will be useless to you, as you will not practice with it, or may not even carry it.

The choice is personal and must be thought out. If you want my criteria, pm me, as I do not feel like writing a book. Oh, and most people's criteria are the same ones, with different levels of importance. A simple list: Comfortable carrying, aim, caliber, recoil, ease of draw, fit in hand, quickness of second shot, ease of cleaning, reliability, price,safety.

As with a thumb safety, it is easy to practice and probably wont slow your drawing of the firearm at all. I practiced it with the gun empty. As I pull the firearm from the holster, my thumb is clicking the safety off.

Do not forget, the holster is also very important. Choose wisely, and assume you will have to go thru a few holsters before finding one you like. And when you DO find one you like - buy 2.

Also, USE YOUR CARRY PIECE TO TAKE THE HCP COURSE. Hopefully, the test at the end of the course - will be the most stressful time you will ever have to shoot your firearm. Use that to see where you need practice, and as a way to better your response should you ever have to use it...

Edited October 12, 2011 by HvyMtl

[quietguy]

The RIA compact is an excellent carry gun.

As others have stated, training is the key to any carry platform.

[Guest TresOsos]

Well I have found "to complicated" as aready stated means they prefer plastic like the Glock, point and shoot no safeties.

I other words they don't think you are smart enough and competent enough to master the thumb safety and grip safety on a 1911.

They generally also have the mistaken belief that the 1911 is unreliable.

Carry what you feel confortable and competent with, it's going to be your rear on the line.

Also remeber a lot of " instructors" are all about shoving round pegs in square holes.

IN other words shoot what they shoot, shoot like they shoot, cause thay are right and you are wrong.

Edited October 12, 2011 by TresOsos

[pattywak]

I carry a full-size FNX-9 double stack 9mm pistol just fine IWB in a Crossbreed Supertuck. The 1911, like some have said, is slim and the shorter barrel will make it no problem for you to carry I believe.

As far as it being an "advanced" carry gun....I'm pretty sure you could say the same thing about any pistol that one hasn't practiced using many, many times. Practice, practice, practice, and practice some more.

"Slow is smooth. Smooth is fast."

[Guest FiddleDog]

Maybe he just meant "more moving parts."...or even "harder to field strip.". I remember my first walk of shame into a gunship with a bag'o'gun after my first and unsuccessful attempt at reassembling a 1911...

[walton6467]

I'm NOT a 1911 guy, (I'm a Glock guy, damn plastic guns) but I have to say this has been one of the most informative threads I've read about the 1911. I have learned alot and will review this thread again later. Thanks to all posters for their excellent input.

[lowery100]

I will add, I too have carried 1911 for a long time. If you ever take the time to go to a good shooting school and are put under a great deal of stress you will sometimes find the weakness of the 1911 platform, Getting a proper grip on the pistol(enough to disengage the grip safety) and under stress disengage the thumb safety. Unless someone is willing to put in the range time to become proficient in these areas, I too will advise someone to look elsewhere. And as far as the reliability of the shorter than full size guns, they are as a whole, less reliable than a full size(5"). That's not say you will not find many people who will say their 3-4.25" runs fine just as a percentage of 1911's out there they are less reliable than a full size. All things to consider when making your decision. The 1911 platform has many advantages but just be ready to accept it's few pitfall. Shoot it shoot it shoot it ....... You should find your self taking the safety off pistols that have no safety.

[TMF]

I used to carry my compact 1911 all the time but have been carrying my Glock more these days. I never had a problem concealing it and I wear normal clothes (nothing baggy). I think the reason this individual referred to a 1911 as "advanced" is probably because of it being single action and the function of the safeties. If you're not familiar with the function of a 1911 then it can be dangerous to handle. I've been corrected before by many people for having the hammer back on my 1911 because they don't understand it's function; some of these people own/carry handguns. I don't think it's necessarily "advanced" but the user needs to really understand how it works as they should with any weapon they carry. It's just a lot easier to instruct someone who's a handgun beginner on how to use a Glock vs. how to use a 1911.

[Viracnis]

Wow! So many great replies.

Thank you all for a lot of great insight. You have given me a lot to think about and a lot of confidence that his reaction is not necessarily to be taken as "gospel". I should have asked this a week ago instead of spending the last 4 days searching the internet for half the information and certainly none of the first-hand experience.

Regardless of the weapon that I choose to carry (and I think I have a while to decide - class is in a month and it's looking like it takes at LEAST a few weeks to get the THCP after the class) I intend to put a lot of range time in. My friend had also recommended dry-fire training to get used to the motion of drawing, removing the safety and firing the weapon. While this will cut into my flip'n and pitchin' practice, I think the Bass can wait. Besides, the neighbors need something new to gawk at.

I did talk to him again yesterday to find out what he really meant by "it is complicated" and he clarified that his answer was complicated, not the firearm. He touched on a few of the points here, but was much more encouraging in my choice when I explained that it was not the .45ACP that I was looking at - it was the 1911 itself that caught my attention. Of everything I've rented (and that has been a lot over the last few months), it has felt the best in my hands and seemed the most "intuitive" to me to shoot. I really like the peace of mind the two safeties offer and the "single stack" grip fits my hand better than thicker guns (like all of the glocks, and most of the Rugers that I've tried in both 9mm and .45).

I'm looking at this holster for "deep" concealment: Galco King Tuk Holster

and something like this for more casual carry: Galco Fletch High Ride Belt Holster

Any thoughts on the Galco King Tuck vs. the Crossbreed Super Tuck? Seems similar and I think I'd rather have the more finished leather of the Galco against my body all day as opposed to the more rough Crossbreed and the KHolsters I've seen just look too big for me to really be comfortable with them - and the +/-$25 difference could be put toward other endeavors: Kimber checkered rubber grips, compact for 1911 - Hyatt Gun Store

Edited October 13, 2011 by Viracnis

[Viracnis]

2. Modern 1911s have some pretty tight tolerances. The RIAs are probably some of the loosest made, and they're still pretty tight. You really need to be meticulous about your maintenance in ways that you don't necessarily have to worry about with say, a Glock. Pocket lint and dirt mixed with grease and sweat can cause many picky 1911s major problems. You have to be strict about your maintenance.

And as far as the reliability of the shorter than full size guns, they are as a whole, less reliable than a full size(5"). That's not say you will not find many people who will say their 3-4.25" runs fine just as a percentage of 1911's out there they are less reliable than a full size. All things to consider when making your decision. The 1911 platform has many advantages but just be ready to accept it's few pitfall.

After reading other threads (old and new) on these forums I had been considering the idea of carrying a little Ruger LCP .380 as a backup with the 1911. These two replies have basically sold me. Of course I'll not let the backup be a crutch for lack of practice, maintenance and practice (deliberately twice) - but it can't hurt to be prepared for reliability issues.

- V

[quietguy]

Any thoughts on the Galco King Tuck vs. the Crossbreed Super Tuck?

The CBST is a little better holster IMHO. The King Tuck is a fine option, but doesn't look to be as well put together as the Crossbreed.

[ted]

I think the king tuk is well put together I have both and the king tuk is far better put together I think

[dbla]

Not to hijack this thread, but for a budget conscious carrier... How does the Bersa 9mm stand up? It's sorta 1911y... Any thoughts on that one?