No Unauthorized Weapons????

[Randy W]

Just got back from taking my wife to the doctor at Centennial Med Center and that was the sign posted on the front door. Question- Does a person with a HCP make them authorized? Unsure of answer so locked gun in car. I hate that feeling of leaving it in the car and try to avoid any place that post.

[Fallguy]

IMO that sign doesn't meet the requirements of 39-17-1359 to be "legally" binding. In other words I don't think you could be charged with a crime for carry past that sign. Of course my opinion is about worth what you paid for it....

As often discussed on here, you can still be told to leave for being armed whether a place has a proper sign, a non-proper sign or no sign at all and if you don't leave you could be charged with trespassing.

But with all that said, on your actual question, only someone at Centennial could tell you for sure if they mean that sign to allow those with a HCP to be able to carry. I think one could reasonably assume it does. Of course we all know about "assumptions" as well.

[robbiev]

I tend to agree with Fallguy (for whatever that's worth). "Authorized" is a little ambiguous. I'd say it means whatever THEY say it means, but the sign doesn't seem to be legally binding.

[walton6467]

No offense to any of my fellow TGOers, but that sign sounds like it was worded by LAWYERS. LOL

[QuietDan]

IMO,

"No unauthorized weapons" is code-language to concealed carriers as my weapon is "authorized" by my HCP.

Of course, the business always has the right to ask you to leave if you're acting the badass and scaring other customers. Therefore, I wouldn't go strutting in OC, but I will go in CC.

This comforts the sheep customers who are afraid of guns, yet doesn't exclude the sheep-dog customers who carry.

[vontar]

INAL, agreeing with others. My opinion like others is worth what you paid, nothing.

CC, don't ask don't tell. Deep cover. If ask to leave, leave. I have read here that if an officer does not see you there, it is pretty much it didn't happen. I feel authorized by my HCP as well, unless told otherwise or by legal sign that says different or a location that is an automatic no.

However, my doctors office is actually legally posted.

BTW, I would love to tell all these places that post that leaving my gun in a car in the parking lot is actually less safe then keeping it on my person.

[Makiaveli]

IMO,

"No unauthorized weapons" is code-language to concealed carriers as my weapon is "authorized" by my HCP.

Of course, the business always has the right to ask you to leave if you're acting the badass and scaring other customers. Therefore, I wouldn't go strutting in OC, but I will go in CC.

This comforts the sheep customers who are afraid of guns, yet doesn't exclude the sheep-dog customers who carry.

To play Devil's Advocate (although I too am not a lawyer), it could mean authorized by them. My wife used to work for them, and my money would be on them hedging their bets in both directions. They can use that sign to ask you to leave, and yet if someone got on their case about not being HCP-friendly, they could say that's not what we meant at all.

[QuietDan]

To play Devil's Advocate (although I too am not a lawyer), it could mean authorized by them. My wife used to work for them, and my money would be on them hedging their bets in both directions. They can use that sign to ask you to leave, and yet if someone got on their case about not being HCP-friendly, they could say that's not what we meant at all.

Thank you and to play devil's devil's advocate (whew!), I would say that "authorized" would be accomplished or pronounced by an "authority," that is, a government.

Otherwise the sign would have to say "no un-approved" or "no un-managed" weapons, which would be weird.

As suggested by vontar and others, since the langauge is nowhere near official, they couldn't get a clean bust on you, they would only be able to ask you to leave. And, in these times especially, what business is going to run off customers that are otherwise not causing trouble?

[vontar]

I do agree with the devils advocate as well, that did cross my mind. Plus it does show their view point that they are not gun friendly. I am sure if you ask they are going to say no. Be happy the sign is not legal.

[Fallguy]

The person that controls a property is the "authority" for that property...at least as far as the carry of weapons and according to the law and a AG opinion.

I agree though that 99% of the time if you ask a place if carry is allowed, they will say "No".

[hammerdrop99]

I saw that same wording at a Walmart in Texas. I carried anyway, after all Texas is "Cowboy Country".

[Bubba0031]

I agree with Makiaveli that they may be trying to go both ways or they may just have put up a sign that suited them without giving much thought to what it might actually means. Another possibility is that a LEO, armed guard or perhaps or an armored car employee may be "authorized".

[peejman]

No offense to any of my fellow TGOers, but that sign sounds like it was worded by LAWYERS. LOL

A very thoughtful lawyer...

IMO,

"No unauthorized weapons" is code-language to concealed carriers as my weapon is "authorized" by my HCP.

Of course, the business always has the right to ask you to leave if you're acting the badass and scaring other customers. Therefore, I wouldn't go strutting in OC, but I will go in CC.

This comforts the sheep customers who are afraid of guns, yet doesn't exclude the sheep-dog customers who carry.

[dunndw]

If asked I'll tell them I'm authorized by the state (HCP) and the Federal Gov (Constitution) to carry a firearm....

[Guest HvyMtl]

Sounds like they didnt update their signage after the new "gunbuster" law passed.

[EastHipster]

I wouldn't worry about CC with that sign.

I was at Radnor Park earlier.

Their sign is totally clear....no guns "including HCP holders".

No ambiguity there.

[macville]

I wouldn't worry about CC with that sign.

I was at Radnor Park earlier.

Their sign is totally clear....no guns "including HCP holders".

No ambiguity there.

Where is this sign at radnor? It's a state park so carry is legal with a permit. Is it an old sign that just wasn't updated because the law didn't require to be updated?

[True Grit]

I work daily in a hospital and all hospitals I know of are posted but not offen meeting the legal requirements because they are old signs. That being said I would not point out their error. In talking to the guards the intent is for LEO's and Prison Guards to carry on official duty and not for HCP's. I do want to have to pay legal fees or lose my job if discovered carrying a firearm in the hospital.

[Fallguy]

I wouldn't worry about CC with that sign.

I was at Radnor Park earlier.

Their sign is totally clear....no guns "including HCP holders".

No ambiguity there.

Where is this sign at radnor? It's a state park so carry is legal with a permit. Is it an old sign that just wasn't updated because the law didn't require to be updated?

I have seen that sign and it is no longer correct after the parks law change....but before that change it was pretty clear.

It's not that the new law didn't require signs to be changed...it's actually because the new law PREVENTED any signs from being changed. This was so that no fiscal note attached to it. If signs had been required to be removed or updated, that would have cost money and some would have voted against it for that reason alone.

[EastHipster]

So you CAN carry there?

The signs are at every trailhead and sitting right in the middle of the trail.

Also has the rules about "no running" etc...

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

So you CAN carry there?

The signs are at every trailhead and sitting right in the middle of the trail.

Also has the rules about "no running" etc...

Yes as mentioned above you can carry in ANY state park in TN. A lot of them have the old signage up though, but it no longer carries the force of law & is incorrect. I was at Cedars of Lebanon a couple months ago & noticed that had old signs up there too prohibiting carry. I carried anyways, but I carried concealed. I didnt want to get into any arguments with anyone over it. The vast majority of people (HCP holders included apparently) dont know that the law has changed.

Edited October 11, 2011 by ArmaDeFuego

[Fallguy]

So you CAN carry there?

The signs are at every trailhead and sitting right in the middle of the trail.

Also has the rules about "no running" etc...

Yes.

See Exception 4 under Firearms, traps and other weapons on their Park Policies page Tennessee State Parks: Policies

It says ALL state parks.

[QuietDan]

Regarding the State Parks "Exception 4":

*******************************

Exception 4: While State Parks' rules and regulations prohibit firearm possession and use, Public Chapter 428 of 2009 created an exception in state firearms law that allows individuals with a valid "carry permit" under TCA § 39-17-1351 to carry a handgun within the boundaries of all state parks. While this new law makes an exception for possession, it does not make exception to the use of a firearm. Discharging a weapon in non-designated areas of our parks is still an offense. If a permit holder fires a weapon in self-defense, the holder bears the burden of proof to avoid potential charges under "prohibited firearm use."

*******************************

It sounds like they got dragged into that kicking and screaming.

Regarding the part that says: "If a permit holder fires a weapon in self-defense, the holder bears the burden of proof to avoid potential charges under "prohibited firearm use."

I'm not sure that's exactly right. I've read elsewhere (help, please?) that using a gun in self-defense is an "affirmative defense" to other gun possession charges. I've also read that the burden of proof for self-defense gun use is on the prosecutor. Maybe I'm mixing my States up. . . .

[Fallguy]

Regarding the State Parks "Exception 4":

*******************************

Exception 4: While State Parks' rules and regulations prohibit firearm possession and use, Public Chapter 428 of 2009 created an exception in state firearms law that allows individuals with a valid "carry permit" under TCA § 39-17-1351 to carry a handgun within the boundaries of all state parks. While this new law makes an exception for possession, it does not make exception to the use of a firearm. Discharging a weapon in non-designated areas of our parks is still an offense. If a permit holder fires a weapon in self-defense, the holder bears the burden of proof to avoid potential charges under "prohibited firearm use."

*******************************

It sounds like they got dragged into that kicking and screaming.

Regarding the part that says: "If a permit holder fires a weapon in self-defense, the holder bears the burden of proof to avoid potential charges under "prohibited firearm use."

I'm not sure that's exactly right. I've read elsewhere (help, please?) that using a gun in self-defense is an "affirmative defense" to other gun possession charges. I've also read that the burden of proof for self-defense gun use is on the prosecutor. Maybe I'm mixing my States up. . . .

I think they mean more if you say if you fired in self-defense against an animal not another person.

But yes, T.C.A. 39-17-1322 says if you used a firearm in self-defense you are not supposed to be charged or convicted of firearms crime under Part 13, Chapter 17, Title 39 of TN law. But that law doesn't address who the burden is on to prove it was self-defense.

......and Yes, "kicking and screaming" is putting mildly.

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

I can kind of see why they wouldnt like it. I could see park rangers with visions of their head of a hoard of redneck HCP holders descending on state parks & being like "Well hell Bubba, we got this here gun in the park & its legal for us to have it, why not pop off a few rounds?"

I personally am glad that they make it clear that although you can carry a gun there, just because you are out in the middle of the woods doesnt mean you can go popping rounds off like you could on your own land if you were hunting, etc. There has to be a reason for you to be shooting.