Firearm discharge on public road

[Knox Al]

I am a bicycle rider and take 70-100 mile rides on most Saturdays. Most of these rides are on rural roads. This means many dog owners allow their dogs to roam free. Something about a bicycle rider attracks most dogs attention. Some want to race, others chase you while barking, a few intend to attack and cause bodily harm.

Fox Labs pepper spray has been my defense against these dogs. Spray them in the face and they quit chasing you and go home. I had my first failure last weekend while riding the Tour de Tellico. A boxer type was running just ahead of me and trying to close in on my leg. I attempted to spray him with the pepper spray. The headwind was so strong and the can 3/4 empty it would not reach his face. He must have caught a whiff as he swerved ahead and darted in front of my bicycle. I hit him just ahead of his hip which knocked my bike over to the right. By some miracle I didn't go down which would have caused severe road rash and damage to my bike.

Thinking about buying a .22 derringer and using rat shot for this type of problem as I have a HCP. What would be the law concerning discharging a firearm on a public road. Most I have read seems to deal with hunting. Don't want to do anything to lose my permit or get a fine. I also don't want to break my ribs and ruin a carbon frame bicycle because some idiot won't control his dog.

Al

[TLRMADE]

I find this rather hilarious bc most bicycle riders seem to act like they own the road......pretty sure it would be illegal to shoot within the city limits? And pretty sure that you could not prove that you were shooting in a safe direction.

[jtmaze]

I think the best thing to do is stop the bike and look the dog in the eye and he will probably go away. The fear is yours. If you are scared of dogs maybe you should avoid the areas where there may be a problem. I am a volunteer animal cruelty investigator for the SPCA and TN law says that you have to be on your property to shoot a dog and then it has to be killing livestock (people) ect. Shooting a dog is like shooting a person you have to be in fear of your life. When I was in college, I rode 10-15 miles a day 3-4 times a week in rural west Tennessee and have been chased by many dogs and never been bitten. There are no bad dogs just bad owners. Call animal control.

[Guest bkelm18]

I think the best thing to do is stop the bike and look the dog in the eye and he will probably go away. The fear is yours. If you are scared of dogs maybe you should avoid the areas where there may be a problem. I am a volunteer animal cruelty investigator for the SPCA and TN law says that you have to be on your property to shoot a dog and then it has to be killing livestock (people) ect. Shooting a dog is like shooting a person you have to be in fear of your life. When I was in college, I rode 10-15 miles a day 3-4 times a week in rural west Tennessee and have been chased by many dogs and never been bitten. There are no bad dogs just bad owners. Call animal control.

If I'm not on my property and a dog is attacking me, I'm not calling the owner or animal control. That dog is dead. The type of owner it has is irrelevant at that point.

Edited to add: By attacking me, I mean his teeth are on me. If he's just barking and looking mean, I have other alternatives, not the least of which is pepper spray.

Edited October 3, 2011 by bkelm18

[Guest vthokies03]

I would be afraid that 22 rat shot would just piss the dog off. If I need to shoot one, I want to put him down and put him down hard.

It doesn't sound like the pepper spray failed, the attempt to deliver it did.

[Troutburger]

Yeah, shoot someone's dog on the street in front of their house maybe in front of their kids. Good way to loose your permit, or end up in a self defense situation.

[Guest bkelm18]

Rat shot is probably just going to maim the dog which would probably land you in even more trouble. Get some new spray.

[Jonnin]

A knife may be the answer --- most dogs are just making noise or even "playing" with you, but if one really does attack a few stab wounds will put a stop to it without the complications caused by a firearm. Usually you can back down the road from them (facing the dog), leaving their territory, and avoid anything more than a few min of aggravation.

[JReedEsq]

Legally, it all depends on if you are acting in reasonable self defense. In other words, if you don't shoot at the dog could you reasonably say that you are in fear of death or substantial bodily injury. FYI, I've seen someone charged with aggravated cruelty to animals for shooting a cat. It's a felony. I'm also a cyclist, and I've been bitten and almost run off the road by dogs. I'd advise saving the firearm until after you've tried everything else (pepper spray, gatorade in the eyes etc...) and you are you are in a rural area with no one else around. In other words, don't shoot unless you could convince someone you might get your leg bitten off otherwise.

As for the comment about cyclists that think they own the road, I'm not going to get into another debate like I did last time someone brought this up on TGO. I don't have the time. I'll just say this: Some cyclists aren't as courteous to drivers as they should be just like some gun owners aren't as responsible as they should be. I'm not sure how it's funny that someone is afraid they will be attacked by a dog, or seriously injured if a dogs attacks them. I don't hunt but I'm not going to say that it would be funny if someone was cornered by a pack of coyotes while hunting. Incidentally, I haven't been on my bike in a while. On August 30th I was hit in a residential neighborhood by an older gentlemen who was trying to turn around and just flat out didn't watch where he was going. I actually drive my car daily through the neighborhood where I was hit because it's a shortcut from my neighborhood to Kingston Pike which is a main drag through West Knoxville. It's the sort of place you often see people jogging and and pushing kids in strollers. I've had a lot of back pain and shoulder surgery still isn't out of the question for me but I just thank God I was wearing a helmet and that he hit me (since I was thrown over his vehicle) instead of someone pushing a stroller.

[JReedEsq]

TN law says that you have to be on your property to shoot a dog and then it has to be killing livestock (people) ect.

Wrong. Reasonable self-defense is an exception to the animal cruelty statute. I love dogs, I'm a dog owner and a dog person and I don't advocate shooting dogs. But, I also don't advocate someone getting seriously injured if they can prevent it. I've ridden probably 80-100K miles in the last 15 years and I really think 99% of dogs will run away with water, pepper spray or something less. However, to say that their are no bad or dangerous dogs is a like saying their are no dangerous people. It'd be great if it were true, but sadly it's not. It is certainly not fair to shoot a dog that acts aggressively because it's been abused or neglected. But I think about it in terms as I would a person who's had it rough. If someone kicks in your front door to attack you, it's not the time to talk about whether they had a tough childhood.

Edited October 3, 2011 by JReedEsq

[JReedEsq]

If I'm not on my property and a dog is attacking me, I'm not calling the owner or animal control. That dog is dead. The type of owner it has is irrelevant at that point.

Edited to add: By attacking me, I mean his teeth are on me. If he's just barking and looking mean, I have other alternatives, not the least of which is pepper spray.

I agree on both points. Assuming the dog is large enough for me to be really scared. If it's a small dog it will be punted accross the street.

Edited October 3, 2011 by JReedEsq

[TMF]

Don't do it. The fact that you'd be putting ratshot in the weapon suggest you carry for the purpose of injuring the animal, not killing it. If you're trying to deter a dog use something different then a firearm. The only time you should use your firearm on a dog is to kill it in self defense, but you'd better be ready to prove it.

Something as simple as a squirt gun/squirt bottle with a really good stream is enough to ward off 99 percent of dogs. Even go so far as mixing some chili powder in there to give the dog something to remember not to do it again.

[Guest WyattEarp]

go purchase a tranquilizer gun, visit your vet and get some tranquilizers, just tell her you got some annoying animals bothering your property but you don't want to kill them. won't hurt him, it'll just make him go night, night.

[jtmaze]

I completely agree with deadly force if a dog has you down on the ground unable to flee deadly force is necessary, the only way you can't shoot a dog/cat in TN is if you are in fear of your or someone else's life or the life of your livestock. Charges go from a class c misdemeanor to class e felony.

[peejman]

+1 to pretty much everything JReed said. Once upon a time, I was also an avid cyclist and hope to be one again at some point. I've had my share of unpleasant dog encounters. Had a few unpleasant dog owner encounters too. I wouldn't shoot one unless it was actively chewing on me (dog or owner). Otherwise, just deal with it.

1. Get more pepper spray.

2. Report repeat offenders to the authorities.

3. Ride somewhere else if 1 & 2 don't work.

4. If you don't want to ding your carbon bike, don't ride it where dogs might be. Besides, a heavier bike is better for training.

[JReedEsq]

I completely agree with deadly force if a dog has you down on the ground unable to flee deadly force is necessary, the only way you can't shoot a dog/cat in TN is if you are in fear of your or someone else's life or the life of your livestock. Charges go from a class c misdemeanor to class e felony.

Sorry; hate to nit pick but fear of death or substantial bodily injury.

Title 39 Criminal Offenses

Chapter 14 Offenses Against Property

Part 2 Animals

Tenn. Code Ann. § 39-14-205 (2011)

39-14-205. Intentional killing of animal.

(a)(1)(A) It is an offense to knowingly and unlawfully kill the animal of another without the owner's effective consent.

( A violation of subdivision (a)(1)(A) is theft of property, graded according to the value of the animal, and punished in accordance with § 39-14-105.

(2) In determining the value of a police dog, fire dog, search and rescue dog, service animal or police horse under § 39-14-105, the court shall consider the value of the police dog, fire dog, search and rescue dog, service animal or police horse as both the cost of the animal and any specialized training the animal received.

( A person is justified in killing the animal of another if the person acted under a reasonable belief that the animal was creating an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury to that person or another or an imminent danger of death to an animal owned by that person. A person is not justified in killing the animal of another if at the time of the killing the person is trespassing upon the property of the owner of the animal. The justification for killing the animal of another authorized by this subsection ( shall not apply to a person who, while engaging in or attempting to escape from criminal conduct, kills a police dog that is acting in its official capacity. In that case the provisions of subsection (a) shall apply to the person.

Edited October 3, 2011 by JReedEsq

[Dolomite_supafly]

go purchase a tranquilizer gun, visit your vet and get some tranquilizers, just tell her you got some annoying animals bothering your property but you don't want to kill them. won't hurt him, it'll just make him go night, night.

I take it you are joking.

It isn't like in the movies, it takes a while for an animal to go down from a tranquilizer. A bullet on the other hand is pretty much instant providing it is a good hit.

I have shot at dogs before on several occassions. When I got tired of having out animals maimed or killed I did shoot at dogs. Same goes for any other animal that is going to cause damage or possibly kill one of our animals.

Dolomite

[knoxrocks222]

my glock 23 works great against stray attack dogs on my bike rides

[Dolomite`s Breezy]

I think the best thing to do is stop the bike and look the dog in the eye and he will probably go away. The fear is yours. If you are scared of dogs maybe you should avoid the areas where there may be a problem. I am a volunteer animal cruelty investigator for the SPCA and TN law says that you have to be on your property to shoot a dog and then it has to be killing livestock (people) ect. Shooting a dog is like shooting a person you have to be in fear of your life. When I was in college, I rode 10-15 miles a day 3-4 times a week in rural west Tennessee and have been chased by many dogs and never been bitten. There are no bad dogs just bad owners. Call animal control.

LOL.. wow.. seriously.. ???

I think you need to brush up on your laws regarding TN and Animals at large that are a danger to the public.

[Knox Al]

Thanks for the thoughtful replies, I'll just have to mull over what to do with a firearm, as there is no clearcut answer. As for the biking advice, I'll just skip that as it is worthless.

JReeds, thanks for the posting of the law, and your thoughts coming from a cyclist view. Wishing you a speedy recovery from your injury.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Knox Al

[Guest Broomhead]

Something as simple as a squirt gun/squirt bottle with a really good stream is enough to ward off 99 percent of dogs. Even go so far as mixing some chili powder in there to give the dog something to remember not to do it again.

Cayenne pepper is the only substance that will burn without causing damage to tissue or mucous membranes, IIRC. It only burns when it gets wet and will do so for quite a while, but it will wash off with a steady, constant stream of running water after about 30-45 seconds. Mix that in your spray bottle/squirt gun if you can't afford pepper spray. Pepper spray would have a more effective delivery system, though.

They do have newer pepper sprays that shoot more of a glob of goo, as opposed to a spray, that can go around glasses and is resistant to wind/weather conditions.

[Guest bkelm18]

What about bear spray? They seem to have a greater spray distance, although they are a bit larger than your average pepper spray can.

[TMF]

Cayenne pepper is the only substance that will burn without causing damage to tissue or mucous membranes, IIRC. It only burns when it gets wet and will do so for quite a while, but it will wash off with a steady, constant stream of running water after about 30-45 seconds. Mix that in your spray bottle/squirt gun if you can't afford pepper spray. Pepper spray would have a more effective delivery system, though.

They do have newer pepper sprays that shoot more of a glob of goo, as opposed to a spray, that can go around glasses and is resistant to wind/weather conditions.

Chili powder can cause permanent damage? I'm not asking to nitpick or anything, but I just got some in my eyes the other day making chimichangas. I know not all peppers are created equal, but permanent damage? I just suggested using chili powder because it burned like hell for a while... made me think twice about itching my eye without washing hands first.

[JReedEsq]

What about bear spray? They seem to have a greater spray distance, although they are a bit larger than your average pepper spray can.

We recently bought some "Guard Alaska" bear spray from the Sportsman's Guide for hiking in the Smokies. It is a huge can and it's touted to have a much better range than regular pepper spray. Sportsman's Guide had the best price I could find.

[LagerHead]

I think the best thing to do is stop the bike and look the dog in the eye and he will probably go away.

If only I had thought of that when I was attacked by a Chow when I was 7. Of course I was kind of preoccupied with the chunks he was taking out of my ass at the time. And when he charged me I had about .5 seconds tops to turn around so that it was my buttocks and not my junk upon which he was feasting.