terriorist denied due process ???

[Paladin132]

I was going to keep my mouth closed however I just have to stir the pot a bit...

1st: the baby born on the way to the US was four hours from our airspace and therefor not a citizen by rule, so that may have a bearing on the shoe bomber but the real rule that applies is if we can stand them before a judge (Noriega?).

I have yet to see any evidence that this chucklehead was an active combatant. Why do reports refer to him as "inspiring" attacks instead of planning or executing them? Interesting choice of words. Hollywood could inspire criminal behavior but it would not lead to an arrest.

Once a single branch of government starts doing what it wants it leads the way of bad things and the loss of control of the government, by the people and for the people.

Am I sad he's dead? Nope, just celebrated with a touch of adult libation. Am I worried about what this means with a lack of proof and the odd word choice that sounds like dancing around the issue? Darned tootin'.

Remember him if he is still a citizen if they come for you for speaking out against something. In some countries they come for free speech thinkers in the night, and before you say it won't happen here: you are right as long as we continue to operate as the Constitution dictates.

It is questionable is all I'm sayin'.

[TMF]

He was a member of a paramilitary organization which declared war on the United States, and had already committed acts of war against the United States. So, let's go back in time to Astan 2001. Remember John Walker. Yes, we captured him because he surrendered after suffering a gunshot wound. Let's just say that I'm looking through my scope at him as he is walking along with his Taliban buddies out in the mountains. Can I shoot him? The answer is YES!!! He is a member of a paramilitary organization at war with the United States. I can shoot any one of the people with him (even if they're walking around without a rifle in their hands) the same as I can shoot him. He was still a US citizen at the time too. Now, once captured he could be tried in US courts, but on the battlefield there is no delineation between him or anyone else. This scumbag was on the battlefield so he's fair game. And to the suggestion that our SOF should have rolled him up, we are at the whim of the Yemeni Gov't in terms of direct action missions involving ground troops in their country. Yemen won't allow us to do it, so he got the justice of a hellfire missle up his a**. He was a viable military target along with the other paramilitary fighters that were with him. It doesn't matter if he was there as an orchestrator of attacks or if he was just their cook, he is still a military target, and now he's a problem that's solved and is staying solved.

[G27]

So basically, anyone who the government deems 'at war with against the US' and is outside the US is considered 'on the batlefield' and is a live target. Got it.

No way that could ever be abused.

[TMF]

So basically, anyone who the government deems 'at war with against the US' and is outside the US is considered 'on the batlefield' and is a live target. Got it.

No way that could ever be abused.

It is what it is. If you decide to go to France and join their military, then the US goes to war with France, the US government can kill you. It doesn't matter if you're behind a machinegun or changing tires on a 2 1/2 ton truck; you're still a legit military target. I don't like the term terrorist... this guy was a enemy combatant as a member of a paramilitary organization that uses terrorist tactics. Legit target on the battlefield. The manner it was carried out is no different than an ambush. The US military has been doing that since the Revolution. It's not as if we stand up on the ambush line and ask the enemy to surrender first... we just start shooting until all enemy are dead or dying. The fact that this person was an American citizen changes nothing. This wasn't an "assassination"... this was an attack on a legitimate military target.

[TMF]

Oh, and the government didn't declare war on this organization. Al Qaeda declared war on the US back in the '90s. We've been returning the favor since September 2001.

[gregintenn]

There is no arguing that this is a very unconventional war. I'm trying to form an opinion. I don't find much black and white in this situation. Right now, I feel our government had a tough desicion to make, and probably made the right one. I do, however, see this potentially setting a dangerous precedent in the future.

[mikegideon]

I have read about this guy's antics and seen some short video clips. Didn't take much of that before I was ready to shoot him myself. I refuse to let the media take me on this current ride. The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist.

[MphsTiger1981]

Just a hypothetical question, but what if this scumbag had just masterminded another 9/11 scale attack, then stood in front of the cameras and smiled and praised Allah. Would my opinion of killing him versus capturing him change at all? Not really as I think he would have given his left one to do just that. The guy openly hated America and Americans. He declared war on us. He was openly recruiting others for the purpose of destroying us. He created a magazine soley for that pupose. The new "battlefield" is not as cut and dried as it once was. It's not like other wars where uniformed armies of nations are invading other countries and claiming the land. The guys we are fighting now are chickens who don't wear a uniform out of fear of being easily identified, they hide behind women and children and they use mosques as safe houses, and storage for their weapons and ammunitions. We have to proceed with caution any time a US citizen is involved, to be sure, but this isn't a game changer for me. If he's holed up in Peoria, let PPD send in the SWAT boys to bring him out alive if they can, if not, that's okay, too. I'm just as concerned for our rights as anyone here, but I'm also concerned about the safety of my country, and my family. Is it a slippery slope? Yes, but if this guy wasn't concerned or wanting to take the time to walk into an Embassy and fill out the paperwork to renounce his citizenship, why do you think that was? Was he too busy and just didn't have the time before going out to declare fatwa against us, or could it be that he has no respect for the laws of the US and didn't give a flying crap whether he was a US citizen or not while plotting to kill as many of us as possible. I doubt he intentionally kept his citizenship so that later in life he might want to come home from being a terrorist and retire in Florida with his family and draw Social Security. Being a US citizen obviously wasn't a big deal to him, so it's not a big deal to me.

[dralarms]

Denied due process? My big rear end. What about all those people who were denied due process on 9/11? I say we need to glass a couple of small locations and tell em that if they don't turn over all the terrorists we can glass some more. the ACLU can kiss my tail. The only thing Omaba has ever done right is killing these bastards instead of capturing them to "stand trial" They are guilty. Now let's make them pay for their crimes.

[mikegideon]

Not a fan of Obama at all, but I'm liking his killing spree.

[laktrash]

Not a fan of Obama at all, but I'm liking his killing spree.

Agree but is it about helping his country or his re-election?

[gregintenn]

Just a hypothetical question, but what if this scumbag had just masterminded another 9/11 scale attack, then stood in front of the cameras and smiled and praised Allah. Would my opinion of killing him versus capturing him change at all? Not really as I think he would have given his left one to do just that. The guy openly hated America and Americans. He declared war on us. He was openly recruiting others for the purpose of destroying us. He created a magazine soley for that pupose. The new "battlefield" is not as cut and dried as it once was. It's not like other wars where uniformed armies of nations are invading other countries and claiming the land. The guys we are fighting now are chickens who don't wear a uniform out of fear of being easily identified, they hide behind women and children and they use mosques as safe houses, and storage for their weapons and ammunitions. We have to proceed with caution any time a US citizen is involved, to be sure, but this isn't a game changer for me. If he's holed up in Peoria, let PPD send in the SWAT boys to bring him out alive if they can, if not, that's okay, too. I'm just as concerned for our rights as anyone here, but I'm also concerned about the safety of my country, and my family. Is it a slippery slope? Yes, but if this guy wasn't concerned or wanting to take the time to walk into an Embassy and fill out the paperwork to renounce his citizenship, why do you think that was? Was he too busy and just didn't have the time before going out to declare fatwa against us, or could it be that he has no respect for the laws of the US and didn't give a flying crap whether he was a US citizen or not while plotting to kill as many of us as possible. I doubt he intentionally kept his citizenship so that later in life he might want to come home from being a terrorist and retire in Florida with his family and draw Social Security. Being a US citizen obviously wasn't a big deal to him, so it's not a big deal to me.

Very good points.

[mikegideon]

Agree but is it about helping his country or his re-election?

Probably both. I don't buy into the theory (fantasy) that he's out to intentionally destroy the country. I think he's just wrong in the way he tries to help it. In a few rare cases, like shooting Osama in the face, he's not wrong at all.

[mav]

Yes, but if this guy wasn't concerned or wanting to take the time to walk into an Embassy and fill out the paperwork to renounce his citizenship, why do you think that was? Was he too busy and just didn't have the time before going out to declare fatwa against us, or could it be that he has no respect for the laws of the US and didn't give a flying crap whether he was a US citizen or not while plotting to kill as many of us as possible. I doubt he intentionally kept his citizenship so that later in life he might want to come home from being a terrorist and retire in Florida with his family and draw Social Security. Being a US citizen obviously wasn't a big deal to him, so it's not a big deal to me.

How does that actually work? The man was on a terrorist watchlist. Does he just walk into one of our embassies and say, "Pardon me sir, may I have the forms to renounce my citizenship?"

Look, I am not broken up over this man's death. Ultimately, it is one or two less terrorists to worry about in the future. However, this entire situation does give me a moment of pause to reflect on whether I really want give a president the ability to target an american citizen overseas because some agency of the federal government has deemed them an enemy of the state. The federal government is already way too big and has too much power to begin with. When we do not question and blindly praise our government over circumstances such as these, we are essentially granting them even more power. Therefore, I cannot wholeheartedly embrace Obama's (assuming it was his) decision to take these people out.

I would like to point out that when one questions or criticizes their government, it is not the same thing as criticizing one's country. Yes, those in the government are our representatives. However, the federal government doesn't always represent the desires and/or demands of it's citizenry, nor does it always work in the best interest of the nation. History is replete with examples demonstrating this.

Ya know, about five years plus ago I would have been like many of you. I would have openly celebrated the demise of these people, and praised Obama on his decision. I would have basked in the "take that you sumb*tch" moment. I don't really know what has changed my way of thinking. I am still as conservative as I was 5- 10 years ago, but I now question a lot of what the federal government does and view it with skepticism.

[MphsTiger1981]

Not to hijack the thread, but an update of sorts, for what it's worth. I heard the news on the radio a few minutes ago that the Defense Dept has tentatively identified a third person in the same convoy with this dirtbag was killed by the same Hellfire missile. Turns out we also may have killed one of their top bomb makers who was in the car with the two "US Citizens". I did not hear his nationality, but if this information turns out to be true, it might be the the first time we've killed three on the most wanted list with one shot from a drone. Sounds like we hit the trifecta to me....

[Guest Zombie-Hunter]

I'll say it again........

The US has changed, and whether by coincidence or by design, the current state of the nation has bred an atmosphere that appears to be moving toward a sea-change that could easily result in some sort of dictatorship. Edited October 1, 2011 by Zombie-Hunter

[TMF]

I'll say it again........

The US has changed, and whether by coincidence or by design, the current state of the nation has bred an atmosphere that appears to be moving toward a sea-change that could easily result in some sort of dictatorship.

I think you misunderstand a military operation versus a law enforcement operation. Alawki may have not even been the target here in the first place. So, in what is considered to be a combat zone in which a low-intensity conflict is going on, we kill enemies of the state to which this bombmaker was. There aren't arrest warrants or due process in war. There is intelligence and operations. One drives the other. It doesn't matter if this bomb maker was crashing on Alawki's couch and Alawki was just some innocent goat herder giving him a place to crash. His citizen status is irrelevant. It's not as if the US Military and CIA arbitrarily shoot US citizens in the face. Trust me, they have the best interest of freedom loving US Citizens in mind. Those people running these operations are some of the most freedom loving, red meat eating, gun toting, apple pie loving, wrapped in the Red White and Blue that you will find amongst the citizens of this country.... they just don't wear tin foil hats while they're doing it.

[Guest Zombie-Hunter]

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

I think Ben's quote applies to a lot of posters on this forum.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Zombie-Hunter

[TMF]

Thats all fine and dandy and spoken like someone who doesn't have close blood in an American uniform, the only thing I see is things like this pissed a lot of people off and endangering my son who only wants to come home free of damage.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

I think Ben's quote applies to a lot of posters on this forum.

No I don't have a son in uniform, but I spent over three years of my life deployed to that area of the world and fought these people myself. This person was an enemy of the state, and we don't have the luxury of not engaging enemies of the US because we have loved ones shouldering the burden. I can understand what you're saying, but don't mistake me for someone who hasn't sacrificed a great deal for my country and the people in it.

And who is giving up Liberty for Safety in this situation? This isn't a constitutional issue at all. I'll say this again, if you don the uniform of the enemy which is at war with the United States, our military can kill you. No trial, no due process... the only law that applies here is the law of land warfare. I can't speak to the dead, but I'm pretty friggin' sure that Ben Franklin didn't have this in mind when he said that.

Edited October 1, 2011 by TMF 18B

[Paladin132]

What proof do we have of him being anything than a mouth? If we are going to assassinate folks for that...

I think I may hear a drone outside, hold on let me go check...

[TMF]

His mouth didn't get him killed. His membership in Al Qaeda did. Why does no one get this?? So, if anyone here wants to go to Afghanistan and give praise to the enemy you are free to do so. The second you hop in the truck with them and become a member of said organization there is a good chance you're going to be on the receiving end of a hellfire or some other implement of death. THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH CITIZENSHIP, CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OR A GIANT OBAMA CONSPIRACY TO ERODE YOUR RIGHTS.

[Paladin132]

Who said anything about President Obama?

I am just saying the guy was a nobody from everything I have seen, and the government is claiming he "inspires" attacks. Does that not sound odd?

Why do we sweat due process for the thugs at Guantanamo, who are hardcore AQ and illegal immigrants, and pirates, but a guy that has been proven to be blowing his mouth and is still a citizen is not even shown evidence of more malicious acts.

Again, I refer all to my statement yeah I am glad he is gone, it just concerns me that we did not go to grab him instead.

Also, I just want to point out I've fought for out rights and I seem to remember the first being free speech, not his but mine, and I feel we are getting a tad to enthusiastic in here for folks with differing opinions.

[Mike.357]

it just concerns me that we did not go to grab him instead.

do you think they have not tried that already?

[Paladin132]

Doubtful. Yemen is not that friendly an environment, at least not in '00 and '01 and I doubt it has gotten better. Not only that but we are so risk averse that I think it's a good chance we did not.

Make no mistake, it was probably the right call, I just as said, am concerned about the wording that makes me wonder what we really had, and the fact we took out so

an American.

Regardless of how nasty he was that is a lingering fact. We have strayed to far across the line of what is easy to do in the name of security even though we will never have 100% security. We have to resist that urge else it will one day be abused by some chucklehead.

I also did it funny that the guy is being hailed as being such a kill. From the info available he was a mouth.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Paladin132

[Mike.357]

Doubtful. Yemen is not that friendly an environment,

and thats my point. Do we let these people hide with impunity on that account?

I seriously doubt he was some random dude killed for the sake of some PR. he had it coming.