Man Killed behind glass door.......

[Guest Zombie-Hunter]

A man fatally shot by a Baltimore County police officer Sunday through a closed glass storm door had charged at the officer while brandishing a large knife after his girlfriend told a 911 operator that he was "fixing to get someone hurt," authorities said.

Officers had also been told that the man was suicidal and his girlfriend had told dispatchers that the "first person who comes near him will get stabbed."

"He was a very dangerous individual," said police spokeswoman Elise Armacost, who quoted from a transcript of the emergency call to blunt criticism from witnesses who called the shooting unjustified.

"They killed an innocent man who needed help," said Sandra Jacobs, who saw the shooting and whose daughter, Melissa, dated 40-year-old Nathaniel McCormick. "That's all he wanted, was some help. He was the sweetest guy."

A neighbor, Ashley Wetherbee, said the officers on the porch of the rowhouse in the 7000 block of Berkshire Road in Dundalk had no reason to shoot through the door at a man inside his own home.

"'Put the weapon down. Put it down,'" she said the officers screamed; then, she said, they "just started firing. They were standing outside. I just think it was wrong. There was no attempt to talk him out."

Police say the shooting is being investigated internally and also will be reviewed by the Baltimore County state's attorney's office. Authorities declined to identify the officer who shot McCormick until the investigation is complete, a policy at odds with the city Police Department, which names officers within 24 hours of a police-involved shooting.

Armacost would only say that the officer was a seven-year veteran of the force. She said the first officer to respond, shortly before 9:30 p.m., went up to the porch and saw McCormick standing inside with his back to the storm door.

The officer could see him "definitely holding a large knife," described by police at the scene as having a blade about 9 inches long. A 911 caller had said the man was armed with "knives," indicating more than one.

Police said McCormick refused demands to drop the knife. Armacost said a female officer began to turn the door knob, then McCormick "turned and began charging."

A male officer backing up the female officer fired several times through the glass door from a few feet away, Armacost said. McCormick was pronounced dead shortly after arriving at Johns Hopkins Bayview Medical Center.

Jacobs, the mother of McCormick's girlfriend, disputed key details provided by police and denied that her daughter had told police that McCormick was dangerous to anyone but himself.

"She just wanted to get help," Jacobs said. She also said Monday that McCormick wasn't armed with a large knife, but perhaps with a penknife, and said an officer did not go to the door and try to open it.

Jacobs said McCormick had been laid off from his job as an electrician, his mother had died and he had broken up with and gotten back together with his girlfriend several times over the past two weeks.

Jacobs said her daughter begged a police dispatcher to call an ambulance: "She wanted someone to come and take him to the hospital and calm him down."

After her daughter spoke to police, Jacobs said, she and her daughter walked outside with her two granddaughters. She said her daughter wanted to get the children into a neighbor's house before the police came. They were on the lawn when the shooting happened.

Charles "Joe" Key Sr., a retired Baltimore police lieutenant and firearms trainer who wrote the city department's rules on using deadly force, called it a "a tough call, a terrible situation," but he defended the shooting.

"Hindsight speculation is that the door would have held him, but there is no way to predict that the door would've stopped him," Key said. "The officers could've talked to him longer. They could've run. But cops have no duty to retreat. They have to make sure this guy doesn't hurt anybody else."

Several local police departments have been criticized in the past for shooting people who are mentally disturbed, and mental health advocates have said police officers are often ill-equipped to handle sometimes volatile situations involving people who don't behave according to societal norms

In 2006, Anne Arundel County police defended themselves after officers shot three mentally unstable men, including an unarmed naked man and another armed with scissors. Other Baltimore-area departments have seen similar situations.

Steve Johnson, the associate director for adult services for Baltimore Mental Health Systems Inc., said that police typically have difficulty communicating with the mentally ill. If a person is depressed, Johnson said, "he might not be able to follow directions well."

The health company trains Baltimore police cadets "to help them understand what it might be like to be a person experiencing mental health symptoms," Johnson said. "Our goal is to reduce injury to both police officers and to others."

The Baltimore County Police Department has similar training programs. But Johnson said that training doesn't always help, particularly in fast-moving, dangerous situations.

"We know that police have very specific procedures about the use of force," he said. "We're not trying to replace that. We're trying to help them understand there are some strategies they can potentially use to de-escalate situations. We also recognize there are situations when force needs to be used."

Dundalk shooting: Police shoot man carrying knife - baltimoresun.com

Edited September 30, 2011 by Zombie-Hunter

[G27]

Guy charged the officer(s) with a knife (9" blade)? Good shoot. Might be a sad situation, but those officers don't have the luxury of hindsight...

[QuietDan]

If a guy comes at me with a knife, I don't care whether or not he's mentally ill, he get's shot.

[TMF]

I agree, not a bad shoot at all. I'm sure that police officer isn't feeling to good about it right now, but in the time it took to read that story we had about 100-200 times longer to think about how he reacted then he did in the split second he had to make that decision.

[Pain103]

"There was no attempt to talk him out."

Obviously he didn't want to talk if he had a freaking knife.

[daddyo]

Expecting the officers to "talk him out" is like expecting them to shoot the gun out of a bad guy's hand.

[DaveTN]

Several local police departments have been criticized in the past for shooting people who are mentally disturbed, and mental health advocates have said police officers are often ill-equipped to handle sometimes volatile situations involving people who don't behave according to societal norms

All people that are threatening cops with weapons are drunk or have mental problems. That doesn’t make it any less dangerous for the Officers.

If you have a family member with problems; get them help before you have to call the Police. Police Officers aren’t mental health works, therapists, Doctors or Ministers. Having your family member dead or in prison for felony assault on a Police Officer is not my idea of getting them help.

[TGO David]

Not sure what the OP was trying to illustrate with this thread (bad cops, I guess?) but... crazy guy charges you with a knife??? Nice shootin'.

[Guest PapaB]

"They killed an innocent man who needed help," said Sandra Jacobs, who saw the shooting and whose daughter, Melissa, dated 40-year-old Nathaniel McCormick. "That's all he wanted, was some help. He was the sweetest guy."

Sounds like someone needs a Psych evaluation herself. Is this guy really her definition of "the sweetest guy"? I wonder what it takes for her to call someone a raging lunatic.

There's always someone ready to criticize LE after a shooting but they often ignore the facts. I think the officer did the smart thing by not trying to get inside. That may have ended much worse.

[daddyo]

Sounds like someone needs a Psych evaluation herself. Is this guy really her definition of "the sweetest guy"? I wonder what it takes for her to call someone a raging lunatic.

There's always someone ready to criticize LE after a shooting but they often ignore the facts. I think the officer did the smart thing by not trying to get inside. That may have ended much worse.

She's watched too many episodes of Flashpoint.

[TM01]

Id say good shoot based on the given information. Anyone that has practiced the 21ft drill against an adversary carrying a knife can tell you that there is not a lot of time to present your weapon from holster and it takes very little time to cover that distance when charging.

[Guest Zombie-Hunter]

Not sure what the OP was trying to illustrate with this thread (bad cops, I guess?).

Thats some BS!!

Nice accusations the article was about an incident in Baltimore. My attempt was to discuss the event. Not to bash the police or the people involved, Thanks for trying label me a "hater" maybe your posting will give the minions something to bite on.

Geez a guy can't make a post without being part of the story or have a sinister purpose. Hey David take some of your own advice and attack the story not the messenger.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Zombie-Hunter

[Guest bkelm18]

Thats some BS!!

Nice accusations the article was about an incident in Baltimore. My attempt was to discuss the event. Not to bash the police or the people involved, Thanks for trying label me a "hater" maybe your posting will give the minions something to bite on.

Geez a guy can't make a post without being part of the story or have a sinister purpose. Hey David take some of your own advice and attack the story not the messenger.

Oh please. Perhaps if you would have commented on the story instead of just posting it. You know the climate here. You post an article about a LEO shooting and title it "Man killed behind glass door" and you're surprised you were called on it?

[Guest Zombie-Hunter]

Oh please. Perhaps if you would have commented on the story instead of just posting it. You know the climate here.

No excuse, David was out of line period, some host...PFFFT!

Edited September 30, 2011 by Zombie-Hunter

[daddyo]

You know, I used to be thin-skinned when I was younger.

[G27]

DaddyO is on a roll lately. I LOL'd.

[Guest HvyMtl]

Hmm. There was a closed door between the officer and the guy. Is that the issue here? True it was a "glass" door, which means it could be that tempered glass, or that heavy plastic "glass," something to prevent injuries if someone runs into it. And perhaps, if it is a storm door, as claimed, it would not stop someone charging through it.

There is not enough info here. IF the fellow was close, charging, and the door was open - I have to say good shoot, the fellow's partner was in danger. IF the door was still shut, and the assailant far away, then there is a question.

Remember: Articles such as this one may have been written with bias... And this article does seem to have a bias.

Too little info. Poorly written article. All we can get from this is: The officer shot a possible assailant, who was possibly armed, and the family does not believe he was a threat, and the officer should not have shot.

Ok. Any better info on the shoot? Because I see the article taking the family's side.

[daddyo]

DaddyO is on a roll lately. I LOL'd.

Thanks, brother. I'm glad you liked it. LOL

Actually, it's called having too much time on my hands.

[Troutburger]

Thanks, brother. I'm glad you liked it. LOL

Actually, it's called having too much time on my hands.

+1 Funny right there I don't care who you are.

[Guest capt usa]

The way I read it, the story was the subject of the post. Odd as it was and from the way it sounded, good shoot. A man the cops had been trying to talk to runs to the door with a knife, that seems to be a threat to me. People need to do what Wyatt posted else where and COOPERATE with police.

[East_TN_Patriot]

It's tough to say what I would have done unless I was there, but if a guy with a 9" blade is running at me, he's going to get shot. A sturdy knife could easily break a glass door, and no officer can test the blade strength before making a decision. I think I would have waited long enough to see whether the door would hold up before dropping the guy, but without being in that exact situation, I can't say for sure. As a former police academy instructor and field training officer, I also know that police training tends to be a bit too overly-cautious and over-emphasizes the use of force, which I suspect may have contributed to the officer not waiting to engage with deadly force. But once again, I was not there and the info we have from the story is enough for me to say it was a good shoot.

[Guest Zombie-Hunter]

The variables are too many to know just how things happened. The guy could have just turned or taken a couple slow steps toward the "Glass door" and the human holding the firearm seen a knife in his belt and freaked out or went cold with fear. I certainly wouldn't call it a closed case just because a human said he was charging into a glass window. Thats what any smart person would say after something like that cop or not.

That in itself brings us to the next reasonable question: Was it justifiable? I suppose if a man was being charged by another human with the intent to do deadly harm, Hell Yes! But if I have second hand news my "Enemy" (because thats who you use deadly force upon) has a death wish can I get a scope and hitman their ass though a kitchen window because it is my emit fear of death once he leaves the house? Now what the police have in their defense is they were called out and have to be there. But in reality any citizen with a HCP could have cap a man with a knife, but somehow I think you better wait until he exists the house.

[TGO David]

Thats some BS!!

Nice accusations the article was about an incident in Baltimore. My attempt was to discuss the event. Not to bash the police or the people involved, Thanks for trying label me a "hater" maybe your posting will give the minions something to bite on.

Geez a guy can't make a post without being part of the story or have a sinister purpose. Hey David take some of your own advice and attack the story not the messenger.

Lighten up, Francis.

[Mike.357]

"They killed an innocent man who needed help," said Sandra Jacobs, who saw the shooting and whose daughter, Melissa, dated 40-year-old Nathaniel McCormick. "That's all he wanted, was some help. He was the sweetest guy."

are you kidding me? funny way to axe for help. Maybe Mom would have felt better had her daughter been sliced and diced.

Sounds like a real sweet guy. WTF is wrong with people?

[Mike.357]

Lighten up, Francis.

my personal favorite interwebz comeback. Soooo many people deserve it