Literature to pass out while OCing

[Guest DanE479]

and how could you possibly know this? 100% unsupported opinion.

Why do businesses hire security guards and off duty LEO's to patrol the business? Pretty simple, it's a deterrent. But somehow this same concept does not apply to openly armed citizens?

This idea that OCers will be constantly targeted is completely unsupported, but I guess if people keep repeating it over and over on the internet it must be true. Really not sure why it's such a debate. If you want to OC then do it, if not then continue to carry concealed. Every day 1000's of people open carry in the U.S and the only people that seem to constantly bitch about it are ones on internet forums.

Well, Private, Armed, Uniformed security is totally different than a private citiczen who open carries. Uniformed, armed security is hired by the property owners to enforce the rules of the property, and act as a deterrance to threats on the property. It's called Proactive security. The simple presence of an armed officer on the property is supposed to dissuade people from doing bad things there. When a situation happens on the property, the security personnel are bound by their contract to act to protect the property within the realm of reason, and within the bounds of thier own safety.

A regular person has no obligation to act in defense of someone's life or property. None.

YOu can see my previous post on why OC is bad tactics if you carry a firearm to protect yourself. If you carry a firearm just to show everybody how big your stones are, and have no worry about tactics and retention, then Open Carry all you want. That way people know you're a MAN!, Or, THE Man. Or maybe both.

My use of the word "you" is meant in the plural sense, and not as a specific identifier of anybody here.

Oh, and Erik, I bitch about people open carrying when I see them when I'm in a state that allows it. I'll point blank ask someone why they paint a huge bulleye on their back.

[Erik88]

Hey guys! I thought this was a forum where people share ideas? Erik? No? I know there are differing opinions on open carry. Help me understand the purpose of open carry? Benefits? I'm asking seriously. Why would you do it?

I will say this, after being on this forum, I did not realize how many people do carry.

differing opinions are fine but the OP was asking for help with literature, not looking for advice on open carry in general which is beat to death here all the time.

It's not about "benefits" to open carry. When I lived in TN I would occasionally OC when going to/from the range and always when hiking. When out in the mountains it was much more comfortable for me to carry in a OWB holster and I never once had anyone mention my firearm. I agree that OC in a crowded shopping mall might not be the best idea but I don't see anything wrong with open carry in certain situations. It really isn't about benefits for me, just simply having the freedom to carry a firearm in the open.

[Guest DanE479]

Uzzi, welcome.

Ask any professional tactics and skills instructor and they will tell you that there is no purpose served by open carrying. Again, it comes down to YOU being able to make the choice on when to get in the fight. Open carry also makes it easier from someone to try to grab your firearm. Most regular joes don't practice weapon retention, and too many people do not use a good retention holster. ANy paddle holster is not a retention holster despite what the maker says. I've pulled paddle holsters off people in training before.

THere are a lot of factors that go into why someone wants to carry a firearm. FOr some, it's the BadAss syndrome. They want everybody to konw that they are the baddest guy on the block. For others, it's a matter of pure survival. If you are a survivalist, then you already know that it is bad to draw attention to yourself. Carrying a firearm should be something that is done with a lot of thought, and training, and you must keep your skills up to par if you want to survive the possible Fight you might find yourself in. You may never get into that Fight, but wouldn't you rather be prepared for it?

[Erik88]

Well, Private, Armed, Uniformed security is totally different than a private citiczen who open carries. Uniformed, armed security is hired by the property owners to enforce the rules of the property, and act as a deterrance to threats on the property. It's called Proactive security. The simple presence of an armed officer on the property is supposed to dissuade people from doing bad things there. When a situation happens on the property, the security personnel are bound by their contract to act to protect the property within the realm of reason, and within the bounds of thier own safety.

this is the most contradicting statement I've ever read. So, open carry is only a deterrent when it's done by people wearing a uniform? Otherwise it makes you a target?

I guess I don't get it so we can just agree to disagree.

[RobertNashville]

....

It's kind of a shame you weren't at Nashville TFA meeting last night, Adam Dread (sp?) who was the attorney representing the likes of Randy Rayburn in overturning the "Guns in Bars" bill was one of the guest speakers followed by John Lott (author of "More Guns Less Crime"). More Guns Less Crime is a book every proponent of 2ND Amendment rights ought to read (more than once); that aside, John is quit an incredible speaker and his wealth of knowledge about the role an armed public plays in deterring crime is beyond what you can probably imagine.

A lot of the discussion last night centered around "reaching" those folks "in the middle"...how to approach them. Those are the people you want to talk too because the ones who are rabidly anti-gun and always will be (they will never change their mind); the others may well become gun right supporters (or at least not "anti") if the facts and arguments are presented in the right way.

I'm not going to get into whether open carry is a good way or a bad way to "educate" people; I'll just say that coming off as confrontational or smug or just ranting about "rights" will never persuade anyone and can easily push someone "winnable" over to the other side. All that said, if you want to have something to hand out, I'd keep it simple and have it mostly be a notation of one or two website/sources where the person can look into on their own.

[Fallguy]

First I must say I am bit surprised that it wasn't till the 8th post that an OC thread got off the original topic. It usually the second or third...lol Of course when someone ask a specific question that involves OC it always become a OC - Anti-OC debate...so nothing new.

But anyway...

I don't know of any prepared literature right off, but you may try checking other website. Or as some have suggested. You might just include a line or two about carry in general on a card then have URLs to a few websites with more information.

[TGO David]

Folks...

I see a lot of moderating going on in this thread from folks who aren't moderators. If the real moderators don't see a problem with the way the thread is going and you guys do, shoot someone a PM or use the Report this post button to give us a heads up. Anything else just ads further noise to the thread.

As for the subject at hand, if the OP does not want input from the crowd, he should not post on a forum. The comments being made may not be what he wanted, but they ARE topical. It's not like he posted about open carry and the thread suddenly got turned into a discussion about puppies and ice cream.

Thanks.

[LagerHead]

Open carry is for those wishing to become the first targets. Concealed carry is for those that wish to choose when they become a target. Open carry will not give you an advantage in a defensive shooting. Concealed carry does not take any capabilities away, and gives you the option of suprise.

Aside from some of the more obvious reasons to not OC that were already mentioned here, one big thing that one has to consider is desensitization. The more the public sees OC, the greater the likelihood that they become desensitized to it. The more they are desensitized, the greater the likelihood for a criminal to OC and not draw unnecessary attention to him/herself. The last thing we need is for rampant OC to increase the incidence of gun-related violence, resulting in stricter gun control. While one may argue that if everyone was OCing, everyone would be less likely to commit a crime due to fear of reprisal; in the mind of the criminal, logic and reason is not always there.

Currently, OC draws attention because there is either justified or unjustified fear. People are more likely to point out somebody who is OCing to a LEO so that the carrier may be accosted to verify a valid HCP. They are also even more likely to just avoid that person. The public at large typically uses the avoidance approach. If it is already currently rare for somebody that is OCing to be asked to provide proof of HCP, it will be even more rare if OCing was to be made commonplace. A degree of fear and misunderstanding keeps people vigilant.

I have an HCP but do not find it prudent to OC in public.

Hey guys, the Brady Campaign called. They want their completely unsupported arguments back.

The very last thing we need as a gun-owning, freedom-loving, Constitutionally-minded community is people trying to talk others out of carrying regardless of their method. Especially when the only support for it amount to personal opinion and anecdotes.

The OP only asked about obtaining or creating some form of literature for when he doesn't have the time to engage in an extended conversation with curious individuals. He never asked about OC vs CC, what everyone's opinions are on OC, how you may or may not be more of a target when OCing, or whether OC is a good idea or bad and why. Yet everyone interjected their views on these unasked questions anyway. Why? Answer the man's question or offer helpful advice in finding that answer. Do we really need another OC vs CC debate? Yeah like another hole in the head, or another Glock vs 1911 thread.

Only thing better would be OC a Glock vs. CC a 1911 thread!

To the OP, I kinda like the bi-fold/tri-fold business card idea. Gives plenty of space and is easy to carry. And I agree with the posts against getting too "preachy." Give them a few quick, easily supportable facts, a couple of relevant links, maybe even your e-mail address (or one you keep just for this purpose) if they want to bounce a question off you.

Edited September 22, 2011 by LagerHead

[extremescene]

The OP states that his primary reason for open carry is so that people will notice and spark up conversations... that is just asking for unintended consequences. I carry to protect myself, not to educate people. I would guess way more people complain to the store manager than spark up conversations.

[Guest Jon]

I spent over a decade in the armed security field both uniformed and plainclothes, high risk, and property guard, bank guard, and other situations. THe guy that comes into the gas station to rob it usually does survelliance first to see who is in there. If you walk into the gas station in the middle of a robbery (and usually, gas station robberies happen with guns, not knives, because there's this big thing called a counter in between the robber and the clerk), and the assailant sees you open carrying a gun, your presence with the gun is probably going to escalate the situation, and the bad guy is is now most likely armed with another (your) gun, because he had his out first, and you were just ho-hum walking into the gas station for a case of beer and some smokes. Open carry is outside the norm currently. Anything that is outside the norm or different from what people usually expect will get noticed. Open carrying a firearm gets you noticed quick, and by many people. It's kind of like a big neon sign that follows you around saying "I'm carrying a gun, look a me!!!!!".

Concealed carry gives you the element of surprise in a developing situation because if you conceal well, YOU get to make the call on when you unholster and get in the fight. Open carrying will usually escalate a situation and force you into taking action with your firearm before you are ready, and have had a chance to asses the situation to see if it can be solved without the use of your weapon.

So I guess we as Armed Security should also conceal carry as we are not LEO and need the element of surprise? Seeing that our authority is not much more than a HCP holder.

In my eyes as a Armed Security Guard my weapon openly carried is a form of deterant, on the job as much as off.

But im am done contributing to the trolling of this thread. This forum is obviously full of closed minded people. I see this thread getting locked soon anyway.

[EastHipster]

Seems like a bad premise from the beginning.

your gun isn't meant to be a conversation piece.

And carrying literature around to give people?

But at least you aren't going to the Park with your shoulder sling Pistol and Cammo

[Guest Jon]

Seems like a bad premise from the beginning.

your gun isn't meant to be a conversation piece.

And carrying literature around to give people?

But at least you aren't going to the Park with your shoulder sling Pistol and Cammo

I don't think he meant he is looking for conversation. If you ever OC from time to time you will get someone curious enough to ask questions. Most people thinking about getting their HCP their self, but may not know exactly where or how to go about it.

[RobertNashville]

So I guess we as Armed Security should also conceal carry as we are not LEO and need the element of surprise? Seeing that our authority is not much more than a HCP holder.

In my eyes as a Armed Security Guard my weapon openly carried is a form of deterant, on the job as much as off.

But im am done contributing to the trolling of this thread. This forum is obviously full of closed minded people. I see this thread getting locked soon anyway.

Two things...

1. The job of a LEO and even that of a uniformed security office is quite different than the job of an armed civilian - I'm suggesting that the reasons why uniformed officers carry openly have a good bit more to do with "policy" and their role/job than other considerations.

2. The fact that many people don't "agree" with any given position (be on about open carry or any other) does NOT mean they are closed minded. You are free to think your openly carried weapon is a deterrent; others may not agree - that does not make them closed minded and you open minded...it does not make them "right" and you "wrong" or the other way around; it simply means that they think for themselves and they don't agree with your position. I don't see why that should be a problem for anyone?

[Guest WestonGray]

Hey guys, OP here... I know there are many arguments for and against open carry. I have read a lot about it, and I ultimately decided to open carry in most situations, there are some particular situations that I choose to CC, but none of that is what this was about. I am not going to participate in that debate on this thread, and I would plead with you to do the same. However, I do want to clear up my intentions.

I'm not going to get into whether open carry is a good way or a bad way to "educate" people; I'll just say that coming off as confrontational or smug or just ranting about "rights" will never persuade anyone and can easily push someone "winnable" over to the other side.

That's part of my point, so many people that carry and are asked about it are apt to give a "because a cop is too heavy" or something like that. I am deliberately trying to be the antithesis of this and present an alternative by addressing people that inquire in a polite and well thought out way. I am in no way trying to start confrontation, nor am I out looking for an argument. This project is just to have something for the folks in the middle that ASK ME about it. I'm not wanting to print 1000 and make a day of passing them out on the street corner with my AR on one shoulder and my AK on the other.

[Mike.357]

I'm not wanting to print 1000 and make a day of passing them out on the street corner with my AR on one shoulder and my AK on the other

just shoulder the M1 and be done with it

[Guest uzzi]

My thought is - the fact you want literature would indicate you are trying to make some kind of point. You are absolutely free to do this, I just question the wisdom. I am all for people learning that guns aren't bad, people are, but I would probably not agree open carrying is the way to do it. When you see someone open carrying a Glock on each hip with 4 mag pouches wearing green "tactical" pants in target you have to wonder, what effect is this person wanting to have? Better yet, why not two .50 cal Desert Eagles? That would REALLY make a point!

Edited September 23, 2011 by uzzi

[QuietDan]

Yes to all above, the wisdom, the unwisdom of Open Carry . . .

If you had a business card, front and back, to make the bests legal and practical arguments FOR open carry (and . . . when and when not to . . . ) what would the card SAY???

On a business card, front and back, you'd have less than 20 lines.

for example:

********************************************

Thank you very much for your questions involving the pistol that you see me openly carrying.

Carrying a pistol openly is called "Open Carry."

Carrying a pistol concealed under clothing is called "Concealed Carry."

Open Carry and Concealed Carry are legal in Tennessee according to Tennessee Regulation XYZ

Open Carry and Concealed Carry are legal in Tennessee only if you have a Handgun Carry Permit (HCP)

Open or Concealed Carry is not legal in Tennessee in Courtrooms, schools, etc, etc.

Open or Concealed Carry is not legal when a business posts that there are "No Handguns" in their business.

Open Carry is not appropriate when blah, blah, blah

Concealed Carry is not appropriate when blah, blah, blah

For more information visit the website at http://blah.blah.blah.com and http://www.tngunowners.com

Have a nice day!

********************************************

Edited September 23, 2011 by QuietDan

[Guest HvyMtl]

Ok, if you want to carry literature... well... People can be turned off by that. But giving them a business card, with your name and email on it, and write down a couple of websites on topic on the back would be better.

Tell them to email you if they have questions, or go to the websites if they have questions (There are "Open Carry" websites -google - and also put the State's Permit website on it.) Then leave it at that. Giving a brochure is a bit creepy, and can turn people off.

Its like this: This guy was carrying to get people interested, so he could hand out brochures... What is his intent? Can I trust him? Most will not...

So business card is the way to go. Write the websites down in front of the one asking the question, it will show your interest in them as a person, and your concern for them and their safety. The impact will be higher and might get the person to look at the info...

And to the off topic of Open vs Concealed - That argument has been hammered and yammered on for ages. Open can be a deterrent, and has been shown to be in several news articles. And yes, it could make you a target. Concealed is not as invisible as you think, if the person is looking for it, as a person "casing the joint" would, or if the person is merely informed, or just perceptive. But, in cases, concealed does allow for the element of surprise... My opinion: Study up, get informed, and make your decision to OC or CC on this info and how comfortable you are.

Edited September 23, 2011 by HvyMtl

[Guest WestonGray]

My thought is - the fact you want literature would indicate you are trying to make some kind of point. You are absolutely free to do this, I just question the wisdom. I am all for people learning that guns aren't bad, people are, but I would probably not agree open carrying is the way to do it. When you see someone open carrying a Glock on each hip with 4 mag pouches wearing green "tactical" pants in target you have to wonder, what effect is this person wanting to have? Better yet, why not two .50 cal Desert Eagles? That would REALLY make a point!

Maybe you missed my other post. That is exactly what I am trying to be the opposite of. I carry a medium sized Kimber compact (1911, 4" barrel, officers frame), no extra mags, and no "tac clothing". I'm not trying to "make a point" in the sense of being confrontational. I'm not looking to pass these out to everyone I see, just the times when I can't get into the full discussion with someone who asked.

Its like this: This guy was carrying to get people interested, so he could hand out brochures... What is his intent? Can I trust him? Most will not...

How many times has it been "like this" while you open carried? Everybody that I have encountered has been more curious than anything. I'm just giving them information, not trying to make them drink coolaid, what's there to trust? They can fact check me, which I hope they would. So many people perpetuate what they THINK open carrying does just because they are against it.

[Mike.357]

My thought is - When you see someone open carrying a Glock on each hip with 4 mag pouches wearing green "tactical" pants in target you have to wonder, what effect is this person wanting to have? Better yet, why not two .50 cal Desert Eagles? That would REALLY make a point!

show ONE example of this ever happening.

[Mike.357]

and I see no reason ever proven against OC. It is a bunch of internet hyperbole near as I can tell.

[Guest WestonGray]

Giving a brochure is a bit creepy

And creepy? Lets talk about your avatar haha

[strickj]

Ask yourself this:

How does the OP's preferred method of carry affect me?

If the answer is "it's doesn't affect me", then butt out.

If the answer is "it affects me..." then you think to much of yourself.

[TGO David]

But im am done contributing to the trolling of this thread. This forum is obviously full of closed minded people. I see this thread getting locked soon anyway.

Some threads here can also sometimes be full of pretentious buttholes who like to accuse everyone else of being closed minded. Make sure you don't fall into THAT category either.

As for the thread getting locked, I really hope not. In fact I'd like to see it stay open just to disprove your theory that your fellow members are lacking in the fortitude and maturity to handle a thread like this without devolving into either buttholedom or closed mindedness.

Sincerely,

The guy who gets tired of whiners making brash generalizations as a last resort when they can no longer intelligently argue their side of an issue.

[UncleJak]

definitely a business card with a short and complete description of the conversation you would like to have (if you had the time). The more educated people the better. Good luck!