What do you trust more... powder by CC or weight?

[BPE]

So I'm off and to the races reloading... Finally. However in my quest to over complicate my life I ran into another stumbling block I need expert advice with. What should I trust when measuring the powder per load? CC or weight? For my needs and according to my Modern Reloading book my .40 S&W cartridge should take 5.6 grains or .46CC staring load not to exceed 5.9 grains. When I check the printed material for the volume of my powder (Hodgen TiteGroup) I find a volume measure of 0.0847. Doing the math of 5.6 x 0.0847 results in 0.0457 or 0.46CC as stated in my load information.

I've been extremely careful in setting up my Lee Perfect Measure tool to .46CC but when I put it on my Lee scale it only reads about 4.7 grains and not the expected 5.6 grains. This may explain why my first 10-20 rounds I did oh so long ago seemed so weak. But I'm not sure which measurement to trust. The scale is affected by weather and humidity albeit a very slight amount. But it should be more accurate than this.

So do I trust the scale and increase the CC? Or do I trust the CC and just agree my scale is off right now. There should be no damage to the scale as this is only the second use it has ever seen. Or do I do one additional step of measuring out 5CC of powder, put it on the scale and adjust the volume per grain accordingly which would be greater than 0.0847. Or am I way over thinking and analyzing this process?

My key focus here is safety while enjoying the lessons learned. I apologize if these are bothersome, amateur questions but I'd rather ask then see you at a gun show next time and only wave with 3 fingers and a half a thumb.

Additionally I hope this post looks ok. Typing it up on the iPad since the wife has gone to bed in disgust of me staying up late and shut off our laptop. Didn't want to wait to post the question. Thanks for any guidance you can provide someone starting out in this endeavor.

[mikegideon]

Weight!

[Mike]

Yep, get a GOOD scale and do it by weight.

Mike

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Hi BPE

Do you have calibration weights for the scale so you can improve your confidence in the reading?

I'm ignorant but have always adjusted the powder measure on the Dillon until is was dropping the recommended grains of weight. As long as the weight is correct I didn't pay attention to volume.

Extremely accurate scales are expensive, and then you have to treat the extremely accurate scales carefully or they still don't give the accuracy they promise. My little electronic powder scale appears to be approximately accurate to about 0.1 grain. And it will drift according to temperature and the phase of the moon or whatever so I check it against calibration weights frequently.

Because there is some variance in the accuracy of the scale and some variance in the weight dropped each time by the powder measure, I usually avoid loading any hotter than one or two tenths of a grain below the max published load, to help avoid an occasional round maybe being too hot.

If one tried to load exactly at the max load with "slightly inaccurate" powder measure and scale-- If the average load is exactly at max, then the QC spread might yield 50 percent above max and a few rounds WAY above max. That is just statistical reasoning. Dunno if it works out thataway in practice.

Another thing I do to try to improve the accuracy of weight measurement is to drop 10 powder loads in a row and weigh the sum. IOW for 5.6 grains, after 10 loads the scale ought to measure 56 grains. Assuming one can trust the powder measure to drop "about the same weight" every time, then that should increase the accuracy of measurement. If ten loads happens to weigh 56.5 grains rather than the desired 56 grains, then one might infer that the average load is 0.05 grains too heavy. A difference too small to reliably measure with my scale only measuring single loads, but measurable in the sum of 10 loads.

Before a loading session, I'll weigh "the sum of 10 drops" two times. Calibrating the scale before each measurement. If the two measurements are not pretty close together, I fiddle with it some more until I can get consistent weights.

Sometimes if loading 100 rounds, I might pull out an occasional cartridge and spot-check the powder weight to make sure it seems reasonable. Make sure nothing is "drifting" in the powder measure adjustment.

Before seating the bullet I look straight down into each cartridge after dropping powder to visually check the level make sure it doesn't look too high or low compared to the others.

Am slow and it takes about an hour to load 100 thataway. Then visually inspect each finished round for cracks and OAL, feel the rim for cracks, feel the primer to make sure it ain't high, spot-check some of the finished rounds in a case gage.

Maybe that is being "too careful". Dunno.

[BigK]

Lester has your answer on the nose. Weighing 10 charges to see the average is how I was taught. Even a cheap powder measure with the lowest bulk powder won't be off by an amount that would be dangerous. Then again, I'm just making plinking/target ammo or rounds that are just legal for matches.

[Jonnin]

absolutely by weight. While powder is designed to prevent this, you still can get air pockets (tiny) or have a small amount of settle room in loose powder, while weight tells you exactly how many grains you have in that scoop. That said I do use the scoop sometimes, and they are fine. Its really about how precise you want to be, the scoops are not unsafe if you use the correct one for your powder and load data.

[Jonnin]

For more precise loads, use a fatter powder. For example, take the 45 acp and say your scale is +- .1 grain accuracy. If you poke in 5 grains of a hot fast powder, the error max between 4.9 and 5.1 is 2%. If you use slow fat powder and drop 10 grains in, the error is 1%, so ther error in your loads is half as much.

[DWARREN123]

Good scale for reloading. Using anything other than a scale can get you in trouble for near max loads and a scale will keep the measurements more consistant.

Once you go scale you will never go back!

[LngRngShtr]

BPE,..

Always go by weight,.

I even use 2 scales and check weights to verify my charges.. you will learn as you progress however that if you are looking for the higher end loadings/performance there is another piece of equipment and its own set of signs you look for and that is a chronograph that in itself is a whole 'nother post so I will leave it for now.

CC and the LEE method I believe was developed back in the early days of handloading when hunters would take a small kit and handloading was done without a press like we have these days and they used dippers , I think LEE still sells the kit and for hunting camp CC is an easier safer alternative to carrying a relatively fragile scale etc. My father started out with one,the shop owner gave it to him to try and said "you will be back for the Lyman" sure enough story goes Dad went back after a few weeks .. I now own that "old gray Spartan" press we have since moved on to Dillon 450/550s but the OGS still gets use..

It seems funny to me though that when you think of it you are measuring by weight and charging by volume, always have from back in the muzzleloader days to the highest end rifles out there on the firing line today...

As to why you were a whole grain off on your reloads using the CC method,I would call LEEs tech line and ask them for any tips,hints or tricks that we may have missed... then I would make a note ,put it in the box and use the scale to do my hand loading

Welcome to a whole new addiction,with endless combinations of powder,bullet and firearms where one change can make for entirely different results..

John

[gregintenn]

The Lee dippers and the Lee Perfect Powder Measure are good tools for getting an approximate charge. Use a good scale and a powder trickler to top off that charge to a precise weight. For plinking ammo, at least use the scales to verify and spot check your loads.

[TM01]

The Lee dippers and the Lee Perfect Powder Measure are good tools for getting an approximate charge. Use a good scale and a powder trickler to top off that charge to a precise weight. For plinking ammo, at least use the scales to verify and spot check your loads.

I use the lee pro measure and have adapted the disk system from there cc recommendation to that which actually drops the required powder charge by weight. I also ran into the same issue of the weight in grains being less than what they were supposed to be. Going up one or two disk sizes takes care of that. I run ten loads through on initial setup to dial in my weights and then check every 10-12 loads after that to make sure the drop stays accurate.

[Caster]

Volumetric metering is only acceptable for black powder. Smokeless powder MUST be verified by weight (Scale)

When you start running upper level loads in cartridges that are inherently high pressure, just a few tenths of a grain can cause pressure changes.

I churn out loads by the bucket load and only verify every few hundred rounds. They are all bottom end loads. Most all my pistol loads are starting charge or very close, so I have room for error. On the other hand, loads for my 45LC and .308 are hand weighed....each and every one of them.

[LngRngShtr]

The one thing you will find in this hobby is that 3 people will have 5 ways to do something so theres alot of choices out there...except maybe that everyone weighs their charges

I use a Dillon 550 measure for my pistols/rifles and an old Lyman Universal for my single stage work,when working up loadings..both get adjusted before a loading session every time, and checked with 2 scales .

At the risk of starting something on the trickle/don't trickle argument

I don't trickle any of my ammo but I do check every so often while loading to verify nothing changes. I tried trickling several years ago and didn't notice an appreciable difference for the work put into trickling..my M-1 didn't shoot any tighter neither did either of my custom 13 Lb. 03A3s ( however weighing bullets to +/- 0.01 of a grain did..) and my PPC revolver and M52 Smith still group in the X rings (was more of a crimping issue) .. some folks rigs do show improvements when they trickle though so try it and see if you like it..

then again I am not shooting benchrest or F-Class competition.. for those tips and arguments you can peruse 6mmbr.com

consistency of press operation in the case of a 550 or other progressive / consistent actuation of powder dispenser in the case of single stage loading will effect the powder charge more so than the measure being a disk or adjustable

Always verify what you are doing before you run off 100 or so,..saves time later with a puller or a hospital visit..

Stay safe

John

Edited September 21, 2011 by LngRngShtr

[ttocswob]

I'm relatively new to reloading myself, but I've noticed that a given volume of powder tends to be a little lighter than advertised. I assumed it's a safety factor thing.

[dlm37015]

i weigh everything to start then about every 10th or so after setting my powder measure

[BPE]

Well... Thank you all for the information and resounding agreement that weight is the only way to go. I picked up a digital scale today at A-H Reloading on 4th Ave South in Nashville, near my office. Good guys there and it seems they just opened their doors. Turns out to be a faulty Lee scale that was not calibrated correctly. I still don't have the ability to calibrate it but will do so soon so I can tag team the scales as suggested.

Now, for a slight follow-up question I'm almost too embarrassed to ask. As I was loading by weight tonight and it was moving slowly but I took my time to do it right. As I finished up and got ready to prime the next 300 brass for tomorrow night's adventure I got a wild hair and threw a bullet on the scale. Much to my disbelief a reading of 165 grains showed up. The box I have of 500 bullets (.40 S&W) is labeled 155 grains.

After picking up my jaw and slapping myself for not checking this as a first step and instead taking for granted proper labeling I rushed to Hodgdon's website for load data (TiteGroup). They list only a 165 grain HP on their page. My bullets are not HP but just regular plinking bullets. That being said, I was using load data for 155 grain bullet at 5.6 Starting and 5.9 Maximum loads. I hit 5.7 every time to stay happily center of safe. Hodgdon's site for 165 grain shows 4.6 Starting to 5.1 Maximum loads.

Am I now resigned to go back to the reload shop to get a puller and undo my loading of 150 rounds? I hate to think that I will but that's really the only choice I see at the moment. Any alternates here or "bite the bullet" and just do it right the second time around?

I'm not heading to the range until Saturday to enjoy the fruits of my labor and if I leave behind the first 150 rounds I can still have fun with the remaining 300. It really ticks me off I got this far only to have to turn around but I have no one to blame but myself. I won't be making this mistaken again... soon.

Again, thank you all for the willingness to share your expertise and experiences with me. Your sound advice is being implemented to the best of my ability to ensure safety and a heck of a good time on the firing range.

[mikegideon]

Duh. Meant lyman electronic scales are the least reliable. Get RCBS

Edited September 22, 2011 by mikegideon

[BigK]

I had my Lee Auto Disk setup to drop 4.3gr of Bullseye when I was loading 115gr 9mm bullets. I was a couple dozen rounds short of finishing a box, so I grabbed another handful of bullets. I accidentally took them from the box of 124gr bullets, which I usually only load to 4.0gr of the same powder.

I didn't realize what I had done until next time I reloaded some ammo (after it was all shot up). I didn't have any issues, thank God, but I would still pull the bullets if the same thing happened and I caught the error. I'm not one to press my luck, because next time...I might be shooting my Glock instead of my CZ Shadow.

Edited September 22, 2011 by BigK

[gregintenn]

Do you have check weights to calibrate your scales. It isn't impossible your bullet box is mismarked, but I'd think it unlikely. No reason to be embarrassed. We were all new to reloading once, as well as new to everything else we do.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Yes if you didn't do a couple of repeat-weighings of the bullets, calibrating the digital scale in-between weighings if the results don't seem to make sense, possibly your scale was off for a single weighing of the bullet.

The little digital scales work great but they can drift and will occasionally tell you the wrong measurement which is why I weigh stuff more than once. I would hope that the ones sold for reloading are a little better for the purpose than the same-price generic digital scales.

I got my little Lyman reloading scale many years ago and still use it for reloading, but got interested in scales for weighing precious metals and small parts a couple of years ago and bought a couple of "fancier" digital scales for measuring up to a couple of KG. They are much nicer scales than the little Lyman, but do not have resolution good enough for reloading. One of these days will buy a fancy milligram-resolution scale that will have about 10X resolution than the Lyman.

The fancy milligram scales have their own set of problems, in that they are so sensitive that you have to be pretty expert to use them properly. It is the same as if you have the finest caliper, micrometer, oscilloscope or multimeter, if you don't have 'the knack' then you won't get results commensurate with the quality of the instrument.

I don't reload enough to go to a lot of trouble setting up the scale, but lately I keep the Lyman sitting on an up-ended concrete block sitting on the concrete floor near the reloading bench. Frequent calibration and sitting on a firm low-vibration surface improves the repeatability of results. Some folks if they have a wiggle-free bench, will set a heavy block of marble or concrete on the bench and then set the scale on the block to reduce vibrations. Prefererably on a bench that doesn't get a lot of vibration from other reloading tasks.

A 10 grain difference probably isn't just scale error. Just saying, it isn't impossible that you can occasionally get that much scale error if the scale doesn't happen to be in a good mood that day and you only made a single measurement without double-checks.

Here is a good place to buy calibration weights and such. The price doesn't seem too bad. I've only made two orders from them, but they delivered the goods as expected both times--

American Weigh Scales - Digital Scales Wholesale

Edited September 22, 2011 by Lester Weevils

[TM01]

In my experience, whenever I felt that I may have made an error with any of my reloads, I pulled them and started the whole process again. That doesn't happen often, but I always error on the side of caution and safety. I haven't had a box of bullets marked with the wrong data, but I can see it happening. At least you caught it and had the sense to go with whatever your gut was telling you.

[Jonnin]

The difference between 150 and 165 is small enough that those bullets should be safe if you did not use MAX-Do-Not-Exceed load data. If you used starting load data, just shoot them and learn from this.

[ttocswob]

BPE: Did you check more than one bullet? Not uncommon to have one end up in the wrong bin, so to speak.

With powder, I like to weigh twice - lightly nudge the powder pan, and make sure it returns to the same weight.

If bullet and charge weights are correct; then based on your cited load data, you are about 12% over maximum. I'd get that bullet puller.

Been there, done that - once after loading 50 rounds of 9x18Mak, I realized my new Franklin digital scale was reading in grams, not grains. Forgot to reset after calibrating. That could'a been bad.