Pulled over last night - carrying

[Guest WyattEarp]

I asked one of my professor's at MTSU who is a lawyer, and he clarified, that due to the risk of the safety of the officer making the stop, he has the right to ask you if you are armed regardless if you are an HCP holder or not, regardless if he has determined you to be a valid HCP holder or not, and that you must truthfully answer his questions in regards to if you have any firearms or weapons in the car and you must give him the location of the firearm, even though it is not a must inform state.

my question has been answered, and that's all i wanted to know. my debate was never about being a jerk to a cop, or practical verse legal or trying push the limit.

[TMF]

I asked one of my professor's at MTSU who is a lawyer, and he clarified, that due to the risk of the safety of the officer making the stop, he has the right to ask you if you are armed regardless if you are an HCP holder or not, regardless if he has determined you to be a valid HCP holder or not, and that you must truthfully answer his questions in regards to if you have any firearms or weapons in the car and you must give him the location of the firearm, even though it is not a must inform state.

my question has been answered, and that's all i wanted to know. my debate was never about being a jerk to a cop, or practical verse legal or trying push the limit.

Roger, I think there were just a few folks with the attitude of "F*** the police, I ain't gotta say nothing".

[Guest WyattEarp]

Roger, I think there were just a few folks with the attitude of "F*** the police, I ain't gotta say nothing".

always a poor attitude to have, and a very dumb decision to have that attitude when you're aren't 100% on what the law states to begin with.

but I understand some people's points of views, they don't want to volunteer or give up more information than necessary, but this is one of the situations where it's non-negotiable. he asks, you better tell him and be honest. if it's worth getting your permit permanently revoked, by all means, then they should do what they gotta do, they'll have no one to blame but themselves.

to me it's just a matter of education. the more I learn, the better off I am, and this handgun carry permit and having a weapon on me, is something I take seriously. I dislike grey areas when it comes to this kind of stuff, I prefer cut and dry, white or black. it's either yes or no. legal or illegal.

I wish our legislators would stop with the fancy language in some of their legislation. half the people in Tennessee can't read to begin with, let alone understand all the fancy technical terms and language and wording they like to use. put the stuff in English, plainly worded where even the most uneducated and simple minded person can understand and comprehend the law without having to ask for further clarification as to the meaning.

[Fallguy]

Here is another lawyer's opinion...

http://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2000/op/op147.pdf

Lawful Commands of Police

QUESTION

Whether an individual who intentionally but passively refuses to obey a law enforcement officer’sreasonable, lawful command commits an offense under Tennessee law?

OPINION

No, an individual who intentionally but passively refuses to obey a law enforcement officer’sreasonable, lawful command does not commit an offense under Tennessee law because force is a necessaryelement of resisting arrest.

[Guest justluck]

Here is another lawyer's opinion...

http://www.tn.gov/attorneygeneral/op/2000/op/op147.pdf

Lawful Commands of Police

QUESTION

Whether an individual who intentionally but passively refuses to obey a law enforcement officer’sreasonable, lawful command commits an offense under Tennessee law?

OPINION

No, an individual who intentionally but passively refuses to obey a law enforcement officer’sreasonable, lawful command does not commit an offense under Tennessee law because force is a necessaryelement of resisting arrest.

OK, but what are you going to do if after the officer asks to to get out of the car saying, "you're under arrest" (or I suppose, get out so I can disarm you for my own safety during this stop)? Are you going to get out or "with force'' try to keep him from pulling you out?

[Guest justluck]

The way I interpret what happened in the ruling was someone initially refused an order, even cussed the office out (no physical force involved). But then he did obey, however, was charged with resisting arrest over not obeying initially command.

[Fallguy]

OK, but what are you going to do if after the officer asks to to get out of the car saying, "you're under arrest" (or I suppose, get out so I can disarm you for my own safety during this stop)? Are you going to get out or "with force'' try to keep him from pulling you out?

Arrested for what?

Now if you have told him you are armed or he has seen a weapon...I 100% agree he can disarm you for the duration of the stop if he deems it necessary. But I don't think anything says you have to answer the question in the first place.

I would think if you can passively refuse to follow a command without violating the law, you can passively not answer a question without violating the law.

I'm not saying I wouldn't answer any questions...I'm not saying it is even a good thing...I even agree that if you don't answer, he may be able to have you get out and search you, I'm just saying I don't think you have to answer any questions.

[Guest justluck]

But, if he asks you to get out to frisk and disarm you during a stop, you can passively refuse and not be charged with resisting. But then, what if he says Ok I'm going to physically remove you from the car? If you hold unto the seat when he grabs you, you are resisting.

You may have missed my last post which was just two minutes before your post. I explain my interpretation of the "ruling"

Edited September 29, 2011 by justluck

[Fallguy]

But, if he asks you to get out to frisk and disarm you during a stop, you can passively refuse and not be charged with resisting. But then, what if he says Ok I'm going to physically remove you from the car? If you hold unto the seat when he grabs you, you are resisting.

you may have missed my last post which was just two minutes before your post. I explain my interpretation of the "ruling"

I agree...

But the point I am trying to make is about answering questions....

[Guest justluck]

I agree...

But the point I am trying to make is about answering questions....

OK

But, in referencing the "Ruling" for whatever reason, I think you have to consider that it is very narrow/specific to a particular situation - at least the way I interpret the background of the ruling. But then, I'm not an attorney.

[Guest msparks]

To this point, I can still find nothing that legally says "I have to tell a police officer my gun is in the vehicle, and it's exact location AFTER i have already handed him my HCP and he has determined it to be valid, and that I am in accordance with the law".

Carrying a firearm without a permit is against the law. Carrying a firearm with a permit is not against the law. So if he's seen my permit, it's within valid dates, and not in the status of suspended or revoked, then I don't see how me having my firearm on me or in the car is even an issue, because at that point I've done nothing wrong aside from the traffic violation that he pulled me over for.

Him asking for my weapon until the stop is over, is absolutely his right and within his authority. But he better prepared to show just cause to show that him confiscating my weapon was necessary for his immediate safety. Just because he pulls me over, and asks why he pulled me over, and I say I have no idea, is not grounds for suspicion. If I'm shaking, or refusing to look at him, and acting nervously, or making sudden movements that alarm him, then yes, that is just cause.

again, my question is not me being combative, or trying to be a jerk to the cop, it's me wanting to know the direct answer to the direct question, which as of yet, no one has been able to post any statute or legal wording that explicitly states this.

I really wish an attorney would weigh in this, instead of a police officer. It's been my experience, that some police officers like to take advantage of people who don't know their rights, stretch the rules to their liking/perception, just because they see or realize that someone may not know their rights, and I as an HCP have a responsibility to myself to know what my rights are, and what the law states...not a cop's blanket interpretation of what he thinks the statute says.

Great post, this is exactly what I had been trying to convey. If an officer pulls me over I want to take care of whatever he pulls me over for and that is it.

I look at it this way, ask an officer. Does he want his teenage daughter who just got pulled over to be asked all kinds of questions that don't pertain to the reason she was pulled over.

I've been formulating my response on what to say if I am ever pulled over regardless if I am carrying or not. It's such a "dance" with the thin blue line. Respecting the officer, respecting my personal rights and getting the stop over and done with as little trouble with both parties.

[Guest msparks]

There is a big difference between lawful commands and asking questions. Cops can an ask any questions they feel like. You do not have to answer those questions Period. If you are suspected of violating a law or commiting a crime they will do what they feel is necessary to take control of the situation.

Questions like are you armed, are you dumb, are you white, are you black, are you gay, where are you going, where did you come from, why are you stupid, why are you driving fast, why are you driving slow, why do you this and that have nothing to do with the reason you are stopped.

Pull me over, why am I being stopped? Am I free to go.

Have a nice day.

Sorry I'm not anti-cop trust me on this. I'm just not into being asked 21 questions that have nothing to do but to see if they can get you on something else.

[TMF]

I agree to not being bossed around or treated as if there is a reason I'm up to no good. I've been asked some of these questions by very professional police officers during stops over the years (one of which I had weapons in the vehicle) and I always answered to the best of my ability. I know I don't have to answer, but I don't have anything to hide so I didn't see any reason to avoid or not respond to a question. Kinda like if I ask you "how many guns do you own?". You can say that you don't have to tell me that but that's kind of a dickish way to respond to a question. I don't have to tell anyone who I voted for, but I have no problem telling anyone who asks. If I didn't I wouldn't say "I don't have to tell you", I would just say "I don't feel comfortable answering that question." I have had one experience where I was treated by a LEO during a stop where I was treated as if I had just robbed a bank or something. I still cooperated to the best of my ability despite his unprofessional behavior. I didn't have to, but I didn't see it ending well if I decided to be difficult. It's not right what he did, so I wrote a letter. Maybe it didn't do any good, or maybe it was another strike against an officer that had a history of abusing authority. Either way, I don't think under any circumstance it's worth it to not answer a police officer's questions just because you don't have to. If you don't have anything to hide or feel uncomfortable discussing I don't see why answering simple questions should be such a problem.

[Guest WyattEarp]

Great post, this is exactly what I had been trying to convey. If an officer pulls me over I want to take care of whatever he pulls me over for and that is it.

I look at it this way, ask an officer. Does he want his teenage daughter who just got pulled over to be asked all kinds of questions that don't pertain to the reason she was pulled over.

I've been formulating my response on what to say if I am ever pulled over regardless if I am carrying or not. It's such a "dance" with the thin blue line. Respecting the officer, respecting my personal rights and getting the stop over and done with as little trouble with both parties.

i agree, but police officers are paid to be suspicious, and the questioning is just fishing for whatever else they can find. If they can flush a rat out of the sewer, they will. But in the end, it's just better for everyone to let him know you have a permit, show him the permit and your DL, and let him know you're carrying legally. puts him/her to ease, and they can conduct their business, warn or cite you for what they pulled you over for and then continue you on their way. Otherwise, not answering or evading answers might make what could be a simple stop, turn into a tense moment that's uncomfortable for both sides, when it really isn't necessary.

There is a big difference between lawful commands and asking questions. Cops can an ask any questions they feel like. You do not have to answer those questions Period. If you are suspected of violating a law or commiting a crime they will do what they feel is necessary to take control of the situation.

Questions like are you armed, are you dumb, are you white, are you black, are you gay, where are you going, where did you come from, why are you stupid, why are you driving fast, why are you driving slow, why do you this and that have nothing to do with the reason you are stopped.

Pull me over, why am I being stopped? Am I free to go.

Have a nice day.

Sorry I'm not anti-cop trust me on this. I'm just not into being asked 21 questions that have nothing to do but to see if they can get you on something else.

well to that a person could say, don't do anything to get pulled over, and you don't have to worry about it, lol. but I know where you're coming from.

when i was a kid, that was 15-20 years ago, when they didn't ask your dad if he had a gun or drugs in the car, now the legal and criminal landscape has changed so much, it's almost automatic now that you'll be asked these questions.

but I don't get pulled over enough to worry about it, I haven't been pulled over for a traffic citation since June of 2008.

[Guest msparks]

but I don't get pulled over enough to worry about it, I haven't been pulled over for a traffic citation since June of 2008.

I know what you mean. Can't remember my last one either maybe 2003 or 4. Even though I'm in my 40's I drive like I"m an old fogey.

I guess this is all just internet banter in reality.

[DaveTN]

Resisting has nothing to do with this; unless of course you physically resist when told to get out of the car.

There are times you doing not have a “right to remain silentâ€. DUI is one of them. You do not have a right to refuse to answer questions or submit to a field sobriety test. Refusing to answer questions or comply is a violation that will result in your license being suspended. I am willing to bet that refusal to answer questions about guns in the car would lead to your HCP privileges being revoked.

Common sense tells me that if the law requires you to tell the Officer you are armed, if he asks; it requires you to tell him where the guns are. An HCP hearing is not like a criminal court of law; they can pull your permit for being stupid.

If you refused to answer questions about guns, I would say the Officer is justified in treating you like any other citizen with a gun in the car.

[Fallguy]

Resisting has nothing to do with this; unless of course you physically resist when told to get out of the car.

There are times you doing not have a “right to remain silent”. DUI is one of them. You do not have a right to refuse to answer questions or submit to a field sobriety test. Refusing to answer questions or comply is a violation that will result in your license being suspended. I am willing to bet that refusal to answer questions about guns in the car would lead to your HCP privileges being revoked.

Common sense tells me that if the law requires you to tell the Officer you are armed, if he asks; it requires you to tell him where the guns are. An HCP hearing is not like a criminal court of law; they can pull your permit for being stupid.

If you refused to answer questions about guns, I would say the Officer is justified in treating you like any other citizen with a gun in the car.

AFAIK there is no law that requires you to tell a LEO you are armed.

[Timestepper]

Different thread, same answer:

I'm going to keep this very simple (knowing that I'll probably go down in flames, but what the heck).

If you don't have your head up your butt while using your guns, then don't put it there when you get in your car and you won't have to worry about what to say to LEOs in any state because you'll never get pulled over.

Personally, I'd rather go up against someone armed with a gun than someone armed with a 2,000 pound personal vehicle - at least I've got a pretty good idea of what the guy with gun is going to do.

[ttocswob]

This post is an attempt to turn to page three - so far it bumps me back to the beginning.

Well, that worked - for some reason.

Edited October 22, 2011 by ttocswob

[Guest m500 lover]

This point of view, good friend, is liable to give you no end of trouble one day. For starters, the Officer damn-sure cares about HIS peace of mind and will act accordingly. Generally speaking, he knows the law as a practical street-matter far, far better than you do. That is, he will know on a day-to-day basis just how far he can carry the law to your personal disadvantage that will still stand up in court. The court HE has to deal with almost daily for years and years and years. The particular court you know nothing about.

And what will you do, argue the law with an Officer at the side of the road? Argue the law with fellow in-mates in the holding cell? Argue the law with the Magistrate at two in the morning?

You certainly are welcome to call a hassle down on yourself. Doing it once or twice is enough to wake up most young folks.

And, if you feel the least little bit called-out here, I can think back 25-35 years to a little been there, done that. (Don't anymore.)

I beg to differ on this. The next town overs cops have been pulling people over well past the one mile they were allowed. This happened to my dad. He was not speeding but the car in front of him was. Cop got behind dad and pulled him over. He came at dad with attitude. I said hey not trying to be rude but your out of your jurisdiction. He got silent and said he could pull someone over or follow/chase someone anywhere in the US. At that point i lost it and said no you cant unless we have committed a.felony and then evaded. He wanted to argue and i cut him off with you need to go back to the academy for re-training. Anyway to make a long story short we got the county and state to send us proof where the county line was. He was four miles over when he pulled us over. Also we got our attorney to print the page from TCA where it shows cops cannot go past one mile out of their jurisdiction. It went to court and we beat it. The cop tried to lie and say pulled dad over within the confines of the jurisdiction. He didnt realize though that dad had brought me and the other three people in the car as witnesses and made him look like the damn liar he was. As we were leaving the judge recessed briefly and i could hear him berating the cop and that there would be an ia.investigation. I dont know what ever happened to the cop but two days after they pulled my dad over they pulled my friend over in the exact same place and exact officer. She went to court with the same info dad had and she beat it. After that we went to the local news paper. We have not had problems since and gave not seen their cars in our jurisdiction anymore. I dont recommend anyone handle it the way i did but i happened to be on the phone with our attorney in regards to a case where someone owed.me money in a civil matter. He gave me the tca to quote to the cop which i did and he fell silent.

Sent with Droid Incredible using Tapatalk.

Edited October 29, 2011 by m500 lover

[DaveTN]

I beg to differ on this. The next town overs cops have been pulling people over well past the one mile they were allowed. This happened to my dad. He was not speeding but the car in front of him was. Cop got behind dad and pulled him over. He came at dad with attitude. I said hey not trying to be rude but your out of your jurisdiction. He got silent and said he could pull someone over or follow/chase someone anywhere in the US. At that point i lost it and said no you cant unless we have committed a.felony and then evaded. He wanted to argue and i cut him off with you need to go back to the academy for re-training. Anyway to make a long story short we got the county and state to send us proof where the county line was. He was four miles over when he pulled us over. Also we got our attorney to print the page from TCA where it shows cops cannot go past one mile out of their jurisdiction. It went to court and we beat it. The cop tried to lie and say pulled dad over within the confines of the jurisdiction. He didnt realize though that dad had brought me and the other three people in the car as witnesses and made him look like the damn liar he was. As we were leaving the judge recessed briefly and i could hear him berating the cop and that there would be an ia.investigation. I dont know what ever happened to the cop but two days after they pulled my dad over they pulled my friend over in the exact same place and exact officer. She went to court with the same info dad had and she beat it. After that we went to the local news paper. We have not had problems since and gave not seen their cars in our jurisdiction anymore. I dont recommend anyone handle it the way i did but i happened to be on the phone with our attorney in regards to a case where someone owed.me money in a civil matter. He gave me the tca to quote to the cop which i did and he fell silent.

Sent with Droid Incredible using Tapatalk.

I’d be interested in reading the section that says Police Officers have no authority beyond 1 mile outside their jurisdiction. What is the code number?

[Fallguy]

I’d be interested in reading the section that says Police Officers have no authority beyond 1 mile outside their jurisdiction. What is the code number?

T.C.A. 6-54-301

I also still have a copy of the email from the instructor at the Law Enforcement Academy if you want me to repost it.

[DaveTN]

T.C.A. 6-54-301

I also still have a copy of the email from the instructor at the Law Enforcement Academy if you want me to repost it.

Thanks.

So if a THP Trooper and Metro cop are together visiting Memphis and they see a crime, the Trooper has full Police Powers and all the protections that go with that, and the Metro Cop has no authority?

Can I assume “hot pursuit†applies? If a guy busts their radar at 100 near the city line and it takes 2 miles outside the city line to get him stopped; they just let him go?

[Fallguy]

Thanks.

So if a THP Trooper and Metro cop are together visiting Memphis and they see a crime, the Trooper has full Police Powers and all the protections that go with that, and the Metro Cop has no authority?

Correct. Of course the Metro officer can still make a citizens arrest. ...and in all honesty I think we know it would be treated as if a LEO made the arrest than as a citizen's arrest. (At least by the other LEOs)

Can I assume “hot pursuit” applies? If a guy busts their radar at 100 near the city line and it takes 2 miles outside the city line to get him stopped; they just let him go?

Yes, hot pursuit applies at least as far as I know. Although so far the only thing I can find dealing with it is for out of state officers entering into TN T.C.A. 40-7-203

[DaveTN]

Correct. Of course the Metro officer can still make a citizens arrest. ...and in all honesty I think we know it would be treated as if a LEO made the arrest than as a citizen's arrest. (At least by the other LEOs)

Yes, hot pursuit applies at least as far as I know. Although so far the only thing I can find dealing with it is for out of state officers entering into TN T.C.A. 40-7-203

Heck with that citizen’s arrest stuff. Citizens don’t have qualified immunity; cops do. Do Tennessee Police Officers have no duty to act outside their local jurisdiction?

I just find this very interesting; I come from a whole different set of rules.