Pulled over last night - carrying

[mikegideon]

I thought, even after checking your HCP, the officer has the discretion to disarm you until his contact with you is complete.

Correct me if I'm wrong, that might be Texas . . . .

If so, then you must tell the officer if you're packing.

Just as a matter of practicality, I NEVER argue with an officer at the side of the road. Arguing is for the judge in the courtroom, with your attorney present.

If the officer is in the wrong at the side of the road, you're more apt to screw him up and make him correct his behavior at the courthouse, courtesy of the judge, who has power over him. I'm thinking it's almost impossible and very much not in your interest, to correct the officer at the side of the road, where HE has the power and the law presumes him to be correct, to your disadvantage.

That's the way I look at it. But, some folks are just dying to get hit on the head with a stick, whether they realize it or not.

[Fallguy]

I thought, even after checking your HCP, the officer has the discretion to disarm you until his contact with you is complete.

Correct me if I'm wrong, that might be Texas . . . .

If so, then you must tell the officer if you're packing.

Just as a matter of practicality, I NEVER argue with an officer at the side of the road. Arguing is for the judge in the courtroom, with your attorney present.

If the officer is in the wrong at the side of the road, you're more apt to screw him up and make him correct his behavior at the courthouse, courtesy of the judge, who has power over him. I'm thinking it's almost impossible and very much not in your interest, to correct the officer at the side of the road, where HE has the power and the law presumes him to be correct, to your disadvantage.

You are correct, he can disarm you...if he feels it is necessary for the safety of himself, the HCP holder or the public. (Not really supposed to "just cause") It would seem from many post here, most officers any more are choosing not to disarm them.

I could be wrong, but I think the law is worded the way it is, because normally I don't think an officer would ask you for your permit, if he didn't already know you are armed. So if he already knows, you're armed...me may or may not disarm you while checking your permit.

But this is why some don't notify (unless asked) because it may not come up at all if the HCP holder doesn't bring it up.

[DaveTN]

if you haven't violated any laws, on what grounds would DOS have to pull your permit? because you refused to answer a question of whether or not you had your gun on you and where it's location was?

Yes

If they see the HCP Card, they should assume the person has his or her gun, but I honestly don't see what relevance it is, to ask the person if they have it or not, and of it's location?

Because people with permits have shot cops on traffic stops.

Once the officer has ascertained the HCP is valid and has been provided upon demand, the question of having a gun and it's location are a non-issue, as the HCP holder is exercising his/her rights within accordance of the law as defined in the Tennessee Code Annotated. I understand they are concerned about their safety, etc, but if I've given my HCP card on demand, I would think the question of me having my gun or it's whereabouts is none of their business, since it is not required by law to declare that you are an HCP holder and that you are carrying, I would be inclined to think that I'm not required to answer if I have it, or reveal it's location.

I don’t know how anyone else feels about this but I fully understand that I do not have a right to carry a gun in this state. I bought the privilege from the state. I’m glad my legislators allow me to do that. They can take that privilege way. Were you not paying attention when goof ball had his permit revoke for carrying in the park? He was not violating the law. They revoked his permit because he was a nut case. I hope they do the same to you if you tell a cop its none of his business where your gun is on a traffic stop. Then we will have two examples of how you can lose your permit.

Maybe on initial contact he thinks you have been drinking, maybe you match the description of a wanted person; he doesn’t need to explain those things to you prior to disarming you.

It’s absolutely their business; there is nothing in the Tennessee state law or any state or federal Constitution that requires a Police Officer to put his life in danger playing games with you on a traffic stop.

[Just2Honor]

+1 to DaveTN I'm fairly new to carrying but one thing I've heard loud and clear from this site is: Like it or not, it is against the law to carry a firearm in Tennessee. Those of us with a HCP are an exception to that law. We have the priviledge to carry as long as we do so under the law that gives us that priveledge. Acting in an unreasonable manner will get the laws governing the priveledge changed. Local law enforcement, state troopers. etc will get the ear of DOS and they will talk to legislators. Want to be fighting becoming a "must inform state" and get hassled because you didn't say so quick enough in the eyes of the LEO or spend our energy trying to get the carry law changed to "our" way of thinking?

[Guest justluck]

I've enjoyed this informative thread, particularly being an out-of stater myself. It's best not to get an attitude about the "right to carry" when dealing with law enforcement officers on traffic stops. Tennessee is very gracious with their "not required to inform" law , but I would not hesitate to inform, as well as, submit to the LEO's questions or request to render the handgun "safe" during traffic stops.

Those with attitude problems had better be very careful (KNOW THE LAW) when traveling. There are states that require you to inform (Immediately), and submit to pat downs, and allow the officer to render the gun safe during the encounter. You certainly do not want to get carried away with yourself in these states in the event you are pulled over - Louisiana comes to mind.

[Guest WyattEarp]

Yes

Because people with permits have shot cops on traffic stops.

I don’t know how anyone else feels about this but I fully understand that I do not have a right to carry a gun in this state. I bought the privilege from the state. I’m glad my legislators allow me to do that. They can take that privilege way. Were you not paying attention when goof ball had his permit revoke for carrying in the park? He was not violating the law. They revoked his permit because he was a nut case. I hope they do the same to you if you tell a cop its none of his business where your gun is on a traffic stop. Then we will have two examples of how you can lose your permit.

Maybe on initial contact he thinks you have been drinking, maybe you match the description of a wanted person; he doesn’t need to explain those things to you prior to disarming you.

It’s absolutely their business; there is nothing in the Tennessee state law or any state or federal Constitution that requires a Police Officer to put his life in danger playing games with you on a traffic stop.

i think you misunderstood me, i said "exercising their right/privilege within accordance to the law", meaning they have their permit, and have presented it to the officer. if an HCP holder is carrying his/her handgun, he/she is within the confines of the law.

carrying in my car with a valid HCP is not against the law. carrying in the park where it's posted that you can't carry, is against the law, but I don't know the details of whatever goofball you were referring to's, situation or the events that transpired, so I can not comment on that.

I asked what I did, for clarification, not to argue. I was just trying to get someone to see where I am coming from with my perspective.

Is there something in TCA that backs up what you're saying? That you must declare that you are carrying and the location of your firearm? Seems to me that if Tennessee is not a "must inform" state, then why would I need to disclose that I have my firearm and it's location? that just seems contrary to the fact.

[Guest justluck]

@ WyattEarp

I'm not answering for Dave; I'm sure you'll get that answer. You do not have to inform, but if you do, then the office has the right to render the handgun safe for the duration of the encounter. Of course, you will have to tell him where it's located for him to accomplish that.

[Guest WyattEarp]

@ WyattEarp

I'm not answering for Dave; I'm sure you'll get that answer. You do not have to inform, but if you do, then the office has the right to render the handgun safe for the duration of the encounter. Of course, you will have to tell him where it's located for him to accomplish that.

im not debating the fact the officer has the right to take the firearm for the duration of the stop for his safety. I have no problem with that.

My question is merely if on a routine stop for a traffic violation (seatbelt, speeding, or failure to use a turn signal) he demands to see my HCP ID Card, he then knows that I have a valid HCP, and most likely carrying, but if I'm not acting suspiciously...just cause does not seem to be prudent enough to warrant asking if my gun is in the car or where exactly it is. I would think there would have to be something to set him off, or put him on alert to make him think it would be in his best interest. I've read several of these threads, and I have yet to read one where the officer confiscated the weapon for the duration of the stop.

If I'm ever stopped, I will gladly tell an officer that my gun is present and that it's in my holster on my right hand side. I respect officers and the job they do, my question is one of legality, not one of trying to push the limits or being a know it all, or a hard ass with an "well I'll just show that cop" attitude.

[Guest justluck]

im not debating the fact the officer has the right to take the firearm for the duration of the stop for his safety. I have no problem with that.

My question is merely if on a routine stop for a traffic violation (seatbelt, speeding, or failure to use a turn signal) he demands to see my HCP ID Card, he then knows that I have a valid HCP, and most likely carrying, but if I'm not acting suspiciously...just cause does not seem to be prudent enough to warrant asking if my gun is in the car or where exactly it is. I would think there would have to be something to set him off, or put him on alert to make him think it would be in his best interest. I've read several of these threads, and I have yet to read one where the officer confiscated the weapon for the duration of the stop.

If I'm ever stopped, I will gladly tell an officer that my gun is present and that it's in my holster on my right hand side. I respect officers and the job they do, my question is one of legality, not one of trying to push the limits or being a know it all, or a hard ass with an "well I'll just show that cop" attitude.

I don't know whether a LEO would "demand" to know if you had an HCP, but he might ask for what ever reason (Maybe he recognizes you from the TGO, maybe you just look suspicious, maybe he sees the dent the wife put on you head last argument, ): Do you have any contraband or guns in the car? Then you'd tell him the truth.

[Guest Menzoberranzan]

You can get by (legally) in Tennessee with not informing, at least until you are asked, but (and this more of a general reminder, not really directed at you so much) that many states require you to inform an officer that you are armed and if you don't and you are you have just broken the law. All I'm saying is, for anyone who travels, you need to know the laws of each state you'll be traveling through.

Now I know, most everyone knows that but I suspect there may be a few who don't (or just don't think about it).

For the life of me I can not find the TCA that states I must answer any questions that a LEO asks of me. Would you be so kind as to provide the statute and text (or link)?

[Guest Menzoberranzan]

So you think that by running your guns for stolen, that information is now tagged to you in the NICS database?

I call it an illegal search and blatant violation of the 4th Amendment. Where was the RAS that the guns were stolen in the first place?

[DaveTN]

For the life of me I can not find the TCA that states I must answer any questions that a LEO asks of me. Would you be so kind as to provide the statute and text (or link)?

39-17-1351

(n) (1) Except as provided in subdivision (n)(2), a permit issued pursuant to this section shall be good for four (4) years and shall entitle the permit holder to carry any handgun or handguns that the permit holder legally owns or possesses. The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer.

(t) Any law enforcement officer of this state or of any county or municipality may, within the realm of the officer's lawful jurisdiction and when the officer is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties, disarm a permit holder at any time when the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals. The officer shall return the handgun to the permit holder before discharging the permit holder from the scene when the officer has determined that the permit holder is not a threat to the officer, to the permit holder, or other individual or individuals provided that the permit holder has not violated any provision of this section and provided the permit holder has not committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the permit holder.

[Guest Menzoberranzan]

39-17-1351

(n) (1) Except as provided in subdivision (n)(2), a permit issued pursuant to this section shall be good for four (4) years and shall entitle the permit holder to carry any handgun or handguns that the permit holder legally owns or possesses. The permit holder shall have the permit in the holder's immediate possession at all times when carrying a handgun and shall display the permit on demand of a law enforcement officer.

(t) Any law enforcement officer of this state or of any county or municipality may, within the realm of the officer's lawful jurisdiction and when the officer is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties, disarm a permit holder at any time when the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals. The officer shall return the handgun to the permit holder before discharging the permit holder from the scene when the officer has determined that the permit holder is not a threat to the officer, to the permit holder, or other individual or individuals provided that the permit holder has not violated any provision of this section and provided the permit holder has not committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the permit holder.

You just posted the statute that states I must hand over my permit once detained and permit is demanded and another that gives a LEO the authority to disarm a permit holder when the REASONABLY believe the permit holder poses a danger to himself or others.

I still don't see the one that forces me to TALK to a LEO or answer their questions, about guns (specifically) or anything else.

[DaveTN]

You just posted the statute that states I must hand over my permit once detained and permit is demanded and another that gives a LEO the authority to disarm a permit holder when the REASONABLY believe the permit holder poses a danger to himself or others.

I still don't see the one that forces me to TALK to a LEO or answer their questions, about guns (specifically) or anything else.

I read it differently than you do; I read it like a cop.

You can’t lie, but I guess you can refuse to answer and see how that goes. You could be a test case.

[DaveTN]

I call it an illegal search and blatant violation of the 4th Amendment. Where was the RAS that the guns were stolen in the first place?

Did the cop ask permission to examine the guns? Did he ask if any were loaded?

[Guest Menzoberranzan]

I read it differently than you do; I read it like a cop.

You can’t lie, but I guess you can refuse to answer and see how that goes. You could be a test case.

A test case for what? What could you possibly arrest me for? You ask about weapons and I refuse to answer. You demand my HCP and I produce it. You ask me to step out of my car, I roll up windows and lock it, and shut the door. You ask permission to search my car and I refuse.

Now to pat me down, you must have a reasonable suspicion that I am BOTH armed and dangerous. You may reasonably suspect that I'm armed, but just because I'm armed does not mean I'm dangerous (as SCOTUS has defined it in Terry).

Is my act of contempt of cop worth the potential of a legal nightmare in which you could be personally held liable for any or all damages?

[DaveTN]

A test case for what? What could you possibly arrest me for? You ask about weapons and I refuse to answer. You demand my HCP and I produce it. You ask me to step out of my car, I roll up windows and lock it, and shut the door. You ask permission to search my car and I refuse.

Now to pat me down, you must have a reasonable suspicion that I am BOTH armed and dangerous. You may reasonably suspect that I'm armed, but just because I'm armed does not mean I'm dangerous (as SCOTUS has defined it in Terry).

Is my act of contempt of cop worth the potential of a legal nightmare in which you could be personally held liable for any or all damages?

When you refuse to answer my questions about deadly weapons; I am now in fear for my safety. You have just moved into the category of a reasonable threat. I would remove you from the vehicle and pat you down. If you physically resisted I would arrest you.

Would I have a fear of you suing me? No, or I wouldn’t have been a cop. I don’t have to put my life at risk because you are trying to act like a thug.

If you didn’t resist I would ticket you or whatever I was going to do and send you on your way. I would then file an information report with the DOS and try to have your HCP pulled. I would let them sort that out.

What damages?

[Guest Menzoberranzan]

When you refuse to answer my questions about deadly weapons; I am now in fear for my safety. You have just moved into the category of a reasonable threat. I would remove you from the vehicle and pat you down. If you physically resisted I would arrest you.

Would I have a fear of you suing me? No, or I wouldn’t have been a cop. I don’t have to put my life at risk because you are trying to act like a thug.

If you didn’t resist I would ticket you or whatever I was going to do and send you on your way. I would then file an information report with the DOS and try to have your HCP pulled. I would let them sort that out.

What damages?

How about the damages for violations of my rights under the 4th and 14th amendments? I'll only be asking for $10 in real damages, but several million in punitive ones, given that you are exhibiting your utter contempt for the rights of your subjects openly in this thread, and I would hazard to guess, many others.

[mikegideon]

How about the damages for violations of my rights under the 4th and 14th amendments? I'll only be asking for $10 in real damages, but several million in punitive ones, given that you are exhibiting your utter contempt for the rights of your subjects openly in this thread, and I would hazard to guess, many others.

One of our lawyers may jump in and ask again... What damages?

[DaveTN]

How about the damages for violations of my rights under the 4th and 14th amendments? I'll only be asking for $10 in real damages, but several million in punitive ones, given that you are exhibiting your utter contempt for the rights of your subjects openly in this thread, and I would hazard to guess, many others.

Oh, so because I don’t agree with you I have utter contempt for your rights; what about my rights? I am supposed to back off a potentially deadly situation because you threaten a lawsuit? You have an HCP and you are going to refuse to answer when asked where your gun is and you think a jury is going to side with you? Good luck with that.

Carrying a gun in Tennessee is a crime. The fact that state sold you a permit doesn’t mean I would have to play games with you on a traffic stop. It’s a legal game to you; its life and death for cops.

RAS and PC is argued in court; not on the street. I wouldn’t have a problem with articulating my concerns in court.

[Guest Menzoberranzan]

How about loss of wages? A 5 minute ticket turns into 45 minute fishing expedition due to a corrupt cop not liking a citizen who exercises their rights (the right to silence is one), and who knowingly, under color of law, violated those rights.

[Guest Menzoberranzan]

Oh, so because I don’t agree with you I have utter contempt for your rights; what about my rights? I am supposed to back off a potentially deadly situation because you threaten a lawsuit? You have an HCP and you are going to refuse to answer when asked where your gun is and you think a jury is going to side with you? Good luck with that.

Carrying a gun in Tennessee is a crime. The fact that state sold you a permit doesn’t mean I would have to play games with you on a traffic stop. It’s a legal game to you; its life and death for cops.

RAS and PC is argued in court; not on the street. I wouldn’t have a problem with articulating my concerns in court.

As a representative of the government, you don't have rights. You have legislatively limited authority, period.

[DaveTN]

As a representative of the government, you don't have rights. You have legislatively limited authority, period.

I don’t think I have ever said this here before….. I am speechless.

[Guest justluck]

A test case for what? What could you possibly arrest me for? You ask about weapons and I refuse to answer. You demand my HCP and I produce it. You ask me to step out of my car, I roll up windows and lock it, and shut the door. You ask permission to search my car and I refuse.

Now to pat me down, you must have a reasonable suspicion that I am BOTH armed and dangerous. You may reasonably suspect that I'm armed, but just because I'm armed does not mean I'm dangerous (as SCOTUS has defined it in Terry).

Is my act of contempt of cop worth the potential of a legal nightmare in which you could be personally held liable for any or all damages?

When you roll up your windows, lock your doors and refuse to cooperate, you have just exhibited suspicious and dangerous behavior. And, having just shown the LEO your HCP, I think he might have suspicion that you may be armed.

Edited September 24, 2011 by justluck

[Guest bkelm18]

I don't even need to read what this thread was originally about. Whenever I see a thread that involves LEOs in some form or fashion and it's more than 2 or 3 pages long, it's a guarantee the thread has devolved into a pro-cop vs. anti-cop pissing match.