Pulled over last night - carrying

[Fallguy]

So in TN, you are NOT required to tell the cop up front that you are an HCP holder and have a gun in the car, but if he ASKS you about it then you have to show him your HCP? Would it be advised to just hand over your HCP with your Drivers License at the start?

Lots of opinions and post on this, some say Yes, some say No.

In the end you have to make your own mind at the time.

[QuietDan]

Officer peace of mine (sic)

(I don't give a darned (sic) about his piece of mind.)

I only care about the law.

This point of view, good friend, is liable to give you no end of trouble one day. For starters, the Officer damn-sure cares about HIS peace of mind and will act accordingly. Generally speaking, he knows the law as a practical street-matter far, far better than you do. That is, he will know on a day-to-day basis just how far he can carry the law to your personal disadvantage that will still stand up in court. The court HE has to deal with almost daily for years and years and years. The particular court you know nothing about.

And what will you do, argue the law with an Officer at the side of the road? Argue the law with fellow in-mates in the holding cell? Argue the law with the Magistrate at two in the morning?

You certainly are welcome to call a hassle down on yourself. Doing it once or twice is enough to wake up most young folks.

And, if you feel the least little bit called-out here, I can think back 25-35 years to a little been there, done that. (Don't anymore.)

Edited September 19, 2011 by QuietDan

[pattywak]

Lots of opinions and post on this, some say Yes, some say No.

In the end you have to make your own mind at the time.

I was somewhat hoping to not get this answer, but thank you for the information. I'm sure there have been good stories and horror stories using both approaches, so I guess it does come down to how I feel at the time.

[Oh Shoot]

I was somewhat hoping to not get this answer, but thank you for the information. I'm sure there have been good stories and horror stories using both approaches, so I guess it does come down to how I feel at the time.

I think it's clear that the odds of showing your permit up front triggering a bad response from the LEO is exceedingly rare to perhaps non-existent nowadays. And there is much anecdotal evidence that showing it right away has led to pleasant encounters and even no ticket or lesser ticket than truly deserved.

I'm always amazed at how often some folks in these threads seem to get pulled over on the highway, but that's another discussion I guess. At any rate I can't see any real downside to showing HCP upfront (maybe in the early days of permit issuance, but not now), and can see possible positive results from doing so.

- OS

[RobertNashville]

^^^This. As a former cop and a college professor, I strongly advocate those words. Unfortunately, on the latter point, simply exercising your 5th Amendment rights will virtually guarantee your arrest, because too many cops (and people in general) equate that to guilt...

An old saying comes to mind (don't remember who said it and I'm certainly paraphrasing here)..."Better to keep your mouth shut and be though a fool than to open it and erase all doubt".

If an officer is thinking I may be guilty of a serious crime, I'd rater keep my mouth shut, even if it means I'm detained/arrested (because it raises the officer's suspicion) rather than say something stupid that can be use against me later. Getting detained and/or arrested and hopefully, later released is certainly inconvenient but a LOT better than getting convicted of something I may not have even done simply because I was trying to "cooperate".

[mikegideon]

It's simple to me. When the cop asks for my license, I'll notify then while he can see my hands. To me, that situation is a lot less tense than him running my license, and then approaching the car when he can't see what I'm doing. There is NO reason to wind things up with those folks when they work in such a dangerous job.

I would think that any cop would appreciate you sparing his adrenalin.

[Fallguy]

Just because a LEO takes you license doesn't always mean he'll run it through the computer. I have seen them take it, hold it, talk to the driver for just a moment, hand the license back with a warning and end of stop.

Even if runs it through the computer and sees you have a HCP, it doesn't mean he knows or even thinks you are armed for sure. As discussed in another thread, there seems to be a fairly large percentage of people that have HCPs that don't regularly carry.

So why bring something up that may never come up and has nothing to do with the stop?

Now if your weapon is exposed, he is going to search you for some reason or any other situation where you think he may see/find it..then Yes, by all means inform. I agree that surprises aren't good.

Last time I was stopped, I didn't notify....he took my license, went back to the patrol car, came back and gave me my ticket and that was it.

I'm not saying make it hard on them or be difficult etc... I'm just saying that sometimes you may make an issue out of something that otherwise would never come up. But if you want to notify, that is fine...but just because some don't doesn't mean they are trying to be difficult.

[ttocswob]

I alluded to this in another thread; now a little more detail.

Last month, I was stopped by a local deputy; my taillights were out. I handed him my HCP. He asked if I had any guns; I answered, "a truckload." I was carrying my Ruger 22/45, I had a few rifles behind my seat from recent target shooting, and a muzzleloader I'd picked up at a yard sale. He asked me to step out, disarmed me, then frisked me. Then he wanted to see the other guns in my truck. I stopped informing at that point, (I had two other pistols in my bag.) He proceeded to call in the Ruger and all the rifles including the muzzleloader and an air rifle. So now several of my privately purchased guns are now logged in NICS. No ticket, just lost 30 min of my life, and all respect for the local SD.

I will no longer inform until specifically asked for the HCP, then only minimally. And forget supporting my local sheriff.

[RobertNashville]

...I will no longer inform until specifically asked for the HCP, then only minimally. And forget supporting my local sheriff.

You can get by (legally) in Tennessee with not informing, at least until you are asked, but (and this more of a general reminder, not really directed at you so much) that many states require you to inform an officer that you are armed and if you don't and you are you have just broken the law. All I'm saying is, for anyone who travels, you need to know the laws of each state you'll be traveling through.

Now I know, most everyone knows that but I suspect there may be a few who don't (or just don't think about it).

[Oh Shoot]

.....I will no longer inform until specifically asked for the HCP, then only minimally. And forget supporting my local sheriff.

Wow, the traffic lights (light?) must show "Crawl" instead of "Walk" in Here, TN.

- OS

[DaveTN]

So now several of my privately purchased guns are now logged in NICS.

So you think that by running your guns for stolen, that information is now tagged to you in the NICS database?

[Mike.357]

I would inform for selfish reasons. Seems a good percent of HCPers get away without getting written.

[ttocswob]

Traffic lights? What are those?

[ttocswob]

So you think that by running your guns for stolen, that information is now tagged to you in the NICS database?

Do you really think it isn't?

No the run of the mill LEO can't access the info, but I guarantee the alphabet agencies have people who can. Does any computer data ever go away?

Fortunately in my case, we're only talking about 2-.22's, an air rifle, a muzzleloader, and a Mosin - also my Handi Rifle, the only FFL purchase in my truck at the time. All real crime guns there.../sarc

[BlackHawk93]

Running a gun through the NCIC database only registers the number if there's a "hit".

[M1_Garand]

I got in a minor (no injuries) car wreck the other night, and two KPD officers responded. When they asked for my information, I handed everything over including my HCP and was told "thanks, but we don't need that." The officers did their job in a very professional manner, and it was pretty much a non-event that I was carrying.

[Guest Jon]

The LEO probably didn't know he had an HCP upon initial contact. As a former Volunteer its kinda normal to ask if there is any guns, or any other illegal items in the car. You can get a emotional reading of the person your stopping and somewhat a quick judge of character.

[East_TN_Patriot]

Running a gun through the NCIC database only registers the number if there's a "hit".

Not exactly. I am a former NCIC operator so I can speak to how the system works (unless it has changed in the 4 years since I left law enforcement). NCIC is only a searchable database. The only time a serial number is "registered" in NCIC is when an authorized law enforcement agency enters an item of property into the database as stolen. There must be a police report with a case number associated with that entry; police agencies can't just randomly enter info into the database. The entering agency is responsible for that entry and must keep the stolen property report active as long as the item is entered into NCIC. Most property, including firearms, must be confirmed annually. If you don't keep the report active, the firearm will be removed from NCIC. Police departments are supposed to try and make contact with the victim to see if the property is still missing/stolen. The entering agency must confirm or purge these old entries from NCIC if the victim does not respond to requests or cannot be located. Once this happens, there is no immediately searchable record remaining in the system.

All of that said, there is also a permanent record of all NCIC inquiries and entries. If a LEO runs a serial number, tag number, name, etc. there is a record of it. In fact, NCIC sends auditors out to terminal agencies to confirm that the inquiries and entries are being done for legitimate police business. If a firearm serial number and info has ever been run through NCIC, there will be a record of it somewhere. Getting that recovered would likely be a very difficult task due to the massive amount of time it would take to research a specific random inquiry, but it is possible.

[ttocswob]

All of that said, there is also a permanent record of all NCIC inquiries and entries. If a LEO runs a serial number, tag number, name, etc. there is a record of it. In fact, NCIC sends auditors out to terminal agencies to confirm that the inquiries and entries are being done for legitimate police business. If a firearm serial number and info has ever been run through NCIC, there will be a record of it somewhere. Getting that recovered would likely be a very difficult task due to the massive amount of time it would take to research a specific random inquiry, but it is possible.

Thus creating a de facto, and quite illegal gun registry. The database is there, and growing with every LEO stop. Anyone on the inside with a password and a little SQL-fu could retrieve such data. And the ATF and FBI have already manipulated the NCIS trace process to allow felons - 'scuse me, informants - to buy firearms for Mexicans. I'm sure they have a data interface ready and waiting for an executive order to implement.

If you really want to keep it of the books, don't carry it.

"That's my opinion; it oughtta be yours." - Mack Truck

[BlackHawk93]

Not exactly. I am a former NCIC operator so I can speak to how the system works (unless it has changed in the 4 years since I left law enforcement). NCIC is only a searchable database. The only time a serial number is "registered" in NCIC is when an authorized law enforcement agency enters an item of property into the database as stolen. There must be a police report with a case number associated with that entry; police agencies can't just randomly enter info into the database. The entering agency is responsible for that entry and must keep the stolen property report active as long as the item is entered into NCIC. Most property, including firearms, must be confirmed annually. If you don't keep the report active, the firearm will be removed from NCIC. Police departments are supposed to try and make contact with the victim to see if the property is still missing/stolen. The entering agency must confirm or purge these old entries from NCIC if the victim does not respond to requests or cannot be located. Once this happens, there is no immediately searchable record remaining in the system.

All of that said, there is also a permanent record of all NCIC inquiries and entries. If a LEO runs a serial number, tag number, name, etc. there is a record of it. In fact, NCIC sends auditors out to terminal agencies to confirm that the inquiries and entries are being done for legitimate police business. If a firearm serial number and info has ever been run through NCIC, there will be a record of it somewhere. Getting that recovered would likely be a very difficult task due to the massive amount of time it would take to research a specific random inquiry, but it is possible.

Thanks for the clarification Patriot

[Fallguy]

Well yes, there is a record the gun was run, but in the database where it was run/checked....there is no information of who was in possession of it at the the time, is there? Yes, a DL/HCP check or other things may have been run at the time, but that is checked through the state database...the TIES system in TN (Tennessee Information Enforcement System) and wouldn't be along with the information in the national NCIC system. I guess with a bit of work one could tie it all together..but it wouldn't be simple.

All that said....I never have understood (other than the normal firearms are bad) why it seems firearms are almost always checked through NCIC, even when there is no reason to think they are stolen, when an officer encounters one. I mean if you were taking your old TV to a friends house and it was sitting in the back seat or whatever...unless something seems out of place, the officer usually isn't' going to check to see if it is stolen....but if it is a shotgun.....I bet he does.

[DaveTN]

All that said....I never have understood (other than the normal firearms are bad) why it seems firearms are almost always checked through NCIC, even when there is no reason to think they are stolen, when an officer encounters one. I mean if you were taking your old TV to a friends house and it was sitting in the back seat or whatever...unless something seems out of place, the officer usually isn't' going to check to see if it is stolen....but if it is a shotgun.....I bet he does.

One gun, no. Several guns, TV’s, laptops, or whatever… yes. It’s how burglars get caught and is just good Police work.

Check a bunch of electronics and no one cares…. Check a gun and all of a sudden some folks have their panties in a wad.

[Fallguy]

One gun, no. Several guns, TV’s, laptops, or whatever… yes. It’s how burglars get caught and is just good Police work.

Check a bunch of electronics and no one cares…. Check a gun and all of a sudden some folks have their panties in a wad.

I agree that the amount of an item can make a difference. ...and yes, several TVs etc... could be cause for concern.

I don't have a problem with running anything(s) through NCIC if there is a reason to think something is up, but it just seems from my observation (as limited as is it I guess) that firearms are checked proportionality more often.

[Guest WyattEarp]

The Constitution and the 5^th amendment have nothing to do with it. The 2^nd amendment doesn’t apply once your vehicle leaves your property.

It’s a crime in the state of Tennessee to carry a loaded gun in your car.

You have bought the special privilege of carrying a gun from the state, and you have agreed to comply with the requirements of that privilege.

Playing word games with a cop over a speeding ticket is no where near the same as being asked if you have a gun. If you have an HCP and you tell a cop you don’t have a gun, when you do, will you be arrested and go to criminal court? Probably not; the DOS will just give you hearing and then pull your permit.

if you haven't violated any laws, on what grounds would DOS have to pull your permit? because you refused to answer a question of whether or not you had your gun on you and where it's location was?

If they see the HCP Card, they should assume the person has his or her gun, but I honestly don't see what relevance it is, to ask the person if they have it or not, and of it's location?

Once the officer has ascertained the HCP is valid and has been provided upon demand, the question of having a gun and it's location are a non-issue, as the HCP holder is exercising his/her rights within accordance of the law as defined in the Tennessee Code Annotated. I understand they are concerned about their safety, etc, but if I've given my HCP card on demand, I would think the question of me having my gun or it's whereabouts is none of their business, since it is not required by law to declare that you are an HCP holder and that you are carrying, I would be inclined to think that I'm not required to answer if I have it, or reveal it's location.

I'm not sure of the actual legality of having to answer that question. Be a good question for a LEO in TN to come in here and answer, or for an attorney to answer.

So in TN, you are NOT required to tell the cop up front that you are an HCP holder and have a gun in the car, but if he ASKS you about it then you have to show him your HCP? Would it be advised to just hand over your HCP with your Drivers License at the start?

if an officer asks, you MUST produce your HCP Card on demand. Some people choose to be friendly, and for the officer's safety, go ahead and give both the DL and the HCP simultaneously. Others wait till they are asked. guess it just depends on the person.

Edited September 22, 2011 by WyattEarp

[QuietDan]

I thought, even after checking your HCP, the officer has the discretion to disarm you until his contact with you is complete.

Correct me if I'm wrong, that might be Texas . . . .

If so, then you must tell the officer if you're packing.

Just as a matter of practicality, I NEVER argue with an officer at the side of the road. Arguing is for the judge in the courtroom, with your attorney present.

If the officer is in the wrong at the side of the road, you're more apt to screw him up and make him correct his behavior at the courthouse, courtesy of the judge, who has power over him. I'm thinking it's almost impossible and very much not in your interest, to correct the officer at the side of the road, where HE has the power and the law presumes him to be correct, to your disadvantage.

Edited September 22, 2011 by QuietDan