Pulled over last night - carrying

[Guest justluck]

How about loss of wages? A 5 minute ticket turns into 45 minute fishing expedition due to a corrupt cop not liking a citizen who exercises their rights (the right to silence is one), and who knowingly, under color of law, violated those rights.

If you'd ever watched Judge Judy on TV, you'd realize that you're just blowing into the wind on the lost wages.

Me think you just like to hear you own mouth roar.

Edited September 24, 2011 by justluck

[Guest Menzoberranzan]

Hmm, refuse to cooperate, is that what it is called when a person exercises their rights? Refusal to answer questions is not, according to SCOTUS, reasonable suspicion for searches nor probable cause for arrest. In fact the mere exercising of a right can not be a crime, according to SCOTUS.

The cop can have whatever suspicion he wants, but having already seen the HCP (and presumably knowing it was valid from my DL) has no grounds to then reasonably suspect the illegal carry of a firearm.

[Guest Menzoberranzan]

I don't even need to read what this thread was originally about. Whenever I see a thread that involves LEOs in some form or fashion and it's more than 2 or 3 pages long, it's a guarantee the thread has devolved into a pro-cop vs. anti-cop pissing match.

Why must it be pro-cop v anti-cop? Could it not be pro-liberty v anti-liberty?

[BlackHawk93]

A test case for what? What could you possibly arrest me for? You ask about weapons and I refuse to answer. You demand my HCP and I produce it. You ask me to step out of my car, I roll up windows and lock it, and shut the door. You ask permission to search my car and I refuse.

Now to pat me down, you must have a reasonable suspicion that I am BOTH armed and dangerous. You may reasonably suspect that I'm armed, but just because I'm armed does not mean I'm dangerous (as SCOTUS has defined it in Terry).

Is my act of contempt of cop worth the potential of a legal nightmare in which you could be personally held liable for any or all damages?

geez what a whiner. Im sure we'll all be reading about the incident if you ever get pulled over and see the videos on youtube. You're one of those that thinks you're due EVERYTHING under the sun and EVERYBODY does you wrong. I bet you carry tissues with you in your front pocket with your pocket pencil pal.

[QuietDan]

How about the damages for violations of my rights under the 4th and 14th amendments? I'll only be asking for $10 in real damages, but several million in punitive ones, given that you are exhibiting your utter contempt for the rights of your subjects openly in this thread, and I would hazard to guess, many others.

Your views, while interesting, seem a little extreme, perhaps dangerous.

Getting into a penile dimension argument at the side of the road with law enforcement usually ends up with the officer demonstrating in a legal manner that his *ick is bigger than yours. Try it sometimes for real . . . . the results would be completely different than any scenario in any video game.

Which leads me to ask . . . which Menzoberranzan do you style yourself after? According to Wikipedia:

Menzoberra the Kinless, a powerful priestess of Lolth, founded the city that bears her name in −3917 DR. By the wishes of Lady Lolth, she led seven drow families into the Northdark from the southerly drow holdings of Great Bhaerynden. The drow families, having no immediate external enemy, fell to attacking and undermining one another, as was drow nature, to the greater glory of their evil goddess, who so loved chaos.

Are you a 'drow'? Do you love chaos? Seems like it . . . .

[Guest Menzoberranzan]

geez what a whiner. Im sure we'll all be reading about the incident if you ever get pulled over and see the videos on youtube. You're one of those that thinks you're due EVERYTHING under the sun and EVERYBODY does you wrong. I bet you carry tissues with you in your front pocket with your pocket pencil pal.

How in the world do you get that I'm a whiner and thing everyone owes me anything? Is it because I challenged someone (apparently a cop) who cited a matter of law, but could not back it up with the actual text of any law?

[Guest Menzoberranzan]

Your views, while interesting, seem a little extreme, perhaps dangerous.

Getting into a penile dimension argument at the side of the road with law enforcement usually ends up with the officer demonstrating in a legal manner that his *ick is bigger than yours. Try it sometimes for real . . . . the results would be completely different than any scenario in any video game.

Which leads me to ask . . . which Menzoberranzan do you style yourself after? According to Wikipedia:

Menzoberra the Kinless, a powerful priestess of Lolth, founded the city that bears her name in −3917 DR. By the wishes of Lady Lolth, she led seven drow families into the Northdark from the southerly drow holdings of Great Bhaerynden. The drow families, having no immediate external enemy, fell to attacking and undermining one another, as was drow nature, to the greater glory of their evil goddess, who so loved chaos.

Are you a 'drow'? Do you love chaos? Seems like it . . . .

No arguments from me. I don't talk to cops, other than to state I refuse to answer any questions or to refuse consensual searches.

Off Topic: I chose the name to pay a bit of homage to the author of a series of books about a character hailing from the city named Menzoberranzan. I was completely entertained by those books and every other by said author. And in terms of D&D (pre 4th ed) I would be LN.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Menzoberranzan

[Guest justluck]

Hmm, refuse to cooperate, is that what it is called when a person exercises their rights?

No. I had in mind an act of suspicious and dangerous behavior.

[strickj]

Our new troll is a previously banned member.

[mikegideon]

Our new troll is a previously banned member.

Currently banned as well.

[Guest justluck]

Our new troll is a previously banned member.

WELL, easy to understand why.

[QuietDan]

Our new troll is a previously banned member.

I'm shocked! Shocked! Trolls on this forum! What is this world coming to!

When do they get banned again - when their head turns round and round and round and they vomit pea soup??

[MacGyver]

When do they get banned again - when their head turns round and round and round and they vomit pea soup??

Pretty much as soon as we notice. It's the Calvinist side of TGO. "Once banned, always banned."

[Pain103]

Which name did this troll go by previously? Anyway I'm glad the OP had a pleasant interaction. I'm sure you didn't enjoy receiving a ticket but that's just part of the speeding game.

[Guest WyattEarp]

geez what a whiner. Im sure we'll all be reading about the incident if you ever get pulled over and see the videos on youtube. You're one of those that thinks you're due EVERYTHING under the sun and EVERYBODY does you wrong. I bet you carry tissues with you in your front pocket with your pocket pencil pal.

I'm not so sure he's being a whiner, it seemed more like he was being a devil's advocates, and for the sake of everyone on this forum, he had some damn good questions, that I would like to know the answers to, for my benefit in the future.

any time someone can bring a new perspective to a conversation, regardless of whether you think he's whining or not, his questions/scenario's could be prudent for someone else's benefit, so rather than reduce yourself to name calling and displaying your obvious lack of maturity, do us all a favor and don't.

the only stupid questions ever asked are the one's you either know the answer to before you asked it, or the one's you were afraid to ask, because you thought someone might ridicule you. Not everyone thinks alike or perceives things in the same manner, and some of us ask these questions for our benefit, so if we're ever in a situation, we can do the best to handle ourselves accordingly based on the knowledge we have, from what we have learned and researched.

To this point, I can still find nothing that legally says "I have to tell a police officer my gun is in the vehicle, and it's exact location AFTER i have already handed him my HCP and he has determined it to be valid, and that I am in accordance with the law".

Carrying a firearm without a permit is against the law. Carrying a firearm with a permit is not against the law. So if he's seen my permit, it's within valid dates, and not in the status of suspended or revoked, then I don't see how me having my firearm on me or in the car is even an issue, because at that point I've done nothing wrong aside from the traffic violation that he pulled me over for.

If he asks me if there is any guns in the car BEFORE determining I am an HCP holder, I am going to inform him that I am HCP holder, and that I am going to present my HCP Card so he may inspect it.

Him asking for my weapon until the stop is over, is absolutely his right and within his authority. But he better prepared to show just cause to show that him confiscating my weapon was necessary for his immediate safety. Just because he pulls me over, and asks why he pulled me over, and I say I have no idea, is not grounds for suspicion. If I'm shaking, or refusing to look at him, and acting nervously, or making sudden movements that alarm him, then yes, that is just cause.

again, my question is not me being combative, or trying to be a jerk to the cop, it's me wanting to know the direct answer to the direct question, which as of yet, no one has been able to post any statute or legal wording that explicitly states this.

I really wish an attorney would weigh in this, instead of a police officer. It's been my experience, that some police officers like to take advantage of people who don't know their rights, stretch the rules to their liking/perception, just because they see or realize that someone may not know their rights, and I as an HCP have a responsibility to myself to know what my rights are, and what the law states...not a cop's blanket interpretation of what he thinks the statute says.

[strickj]

Seems pretty simple to me. The location of your gun may determine his perceived level of safety.

If it is within arms reach, he may feel it's necessary to disarm you, as he is legally able to do.

If the gun is in the trunk or glove box, he may not feel the need to disarm you.

Now, you can argue until you're blue in the face on what should determine officer safety, but when it comes down to it, you're opinion on it doesn't matter when you're on the side of the road.

If you get pulled over and are "unjustly disarmed", then file a complaint or sue. Please report back on how that turns out

[DaveTN]

I really wish an attorney would weigh in this, instead of a police officer.

If you want to know what’s going on read the law. Then let us know if you see anything in the letter or sprit of the law that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the law requires an HCP holder to display his permit when asked, but does not require him to surrender or disclose the location of a firearm.

It's been my experience, that some police officers like to take advantage of people who don't know their rights, stretch the rules to their liking/perception, just because they see or realize that someone may not know their rights, and I as an HCP have a responsibility to myself to know what my rights are, and what the law states...not a cop's blanket interpretation of what he thinks the statute says.

If you want to have an intelligent discussion on this issue; lets do so. But I (am I sure others) am not interested in listening to your cop bashing, made up, hyperbole “Your experience†“Some copsâ€â€¦ give me a break, you don’t squat about what happens on a traffic stop; you are just trying to stir

[QuietDan]

To this point, I can still find nothing that legally says "I have to tell a police officer my gun is in the vehicle, and it's exact location AFTER i have already handed him my HCP and he has determined it to be valid, and that I am in accordance with the law".

I wish I were a lawyer to give you what you want and perhaps this will occur in the near future.

However, it seems to me to be a logical progression: If the officer has the right to see your HCP, and if he asks for your weapon so he can secure it, and you do not provide the weapon to him by playing some sort of hide & seek or search & find, then it seems his clearest and safest option at that point is to secure you, the threat, at gunpoint, with handcuffs, and charge you with noncompliance with a police officer's orders.

You may then find yourself locked up in the back seat of a police car, and the officer will now have probable cause to toss your vehicle at the side of the road until he finds the threat. After that, it is very likely that you would be taken to the county jail for your opportunity to explain where you're coming from to a night magistrate, who is really more likely to take the word and the side of a sworn law officer over a uncooperative suspect. The opportunity to win that battle but lose the war is certainly possible.

There are a lot of folks out here who just don't like to be told what to do. Unfortunately police officers are in the daily business of telling people what to do.

[Fallguy]

In general why would a LEO ask for your HCP unless he already knows your armed?

If he already knows your armed or has seen a firearm in the car...then all the RAS, PC is already there, right?

If you have handed over your HCP without being asked, odds are you're not the type that would then refuse to be open and cooperative, right?

If he hasn't asked for your HCP, you haven't handed it over, no weapons are visable and you look like the "average" guy...the topic of firearms may not even come up.

[Guest WyattEarp]

If you want to have an intelligent discussion on this issue; lets do so. But I (am I sure others) am not interested in listening to your cop bashing, made up, hyperbole “Your experience†“Some copsâ€â€¦ give me a break, you don’t squat about what happens on a traffic stop; you are just trying to stir

lol, yeah I do know what goes on a traffic stop. in my younger, more reckless days, I was cited at least 30 times for speeding, and that is not an exaggeration. I was hell on wheels at the time. How I never managed to have my driver's license suspended, I'll never know...I forked over a truckload of money to lawyers and courts.

I have yet to bash cops in this thread, not trying to stir anything up, but I wanna know what the law states, not listen to your baseless, blanket interpretations and opinions of what you think it says. You can''t provide the statute, because it doesn't exist, but then again, you usedta could be a cop, so I guess you're the end all, know it all right?

[DaveTN]

but I wanna know what the law states

Then read it. Do you really think an attorney is going to get on here and tell you that telling a cop its none of his business if you are armed, or where your guns are is going to happen (unless it’s your attorney looking for another payday)?

There are a couple of Tennessee Police Officers responding to your questions, or are their opinions baseless also? If you want to know what’s going to happen in a courtroom; ask a criminal defense attorney. If you want to know what’s going to happen on the street; ask a cop.

[dralarms]

You can do what you want. Just let us know the outcome once it's over. I'm not going to tell you that you are right or wrong. I will tell you this: I will inform each and every time I am stopped on the onset of the meeting, I know I DO NOT have to but it also is my choice. I carry for my protection, and contrary to popular belief, a cop carries for his protection also, not yours. If it will make an LEO more at ease to know that I am carrying and even if he want to disarm me, that's fine. The law says he can. Hasn't happened yet and I suspect it never will. I am always polite to LEO if stopped, I see no reason not to be. Therefore if I am polite to a LEO and hand him my HCP when I hand him my DL, then he most probally will know that I'm not the one he needs to be worried about. Those people do a great service most of the time and all they want to do is go home at the end of a shift to their loved ones (just like me BTW).

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

I have yet to meet a cop that I just really didnt like. When I get pulled over (it happens more often than I like for it to ) I usually try to put the cop at ease. If its at night I turn on my interior light & I always put both my hands on the steering wheel.

I havent been pulled over yet while carrying, but if it happens I'll just give him my HCP when I give him my license. If he asks if I'm carrying I'll tell him yes & where its at. If he wants to disarm me until the stop is over thats fine with me.

[Guest Jon]

As a volunteer I have worked many traffic stops and one sure fire way to get your ass jerked from your car is to refuse to give an officer any information of your firearm.

Just because you have a HCP doesn't mean you are an outstanding citizen and the LEO should just let his guard down. You could be going through some kind of life crisis that has your mental stability all screwed up and could act irrationally in a moment of stress.

When a LEO asks you where the location of your firearm is its for his safety, tell him. Otherwise its going to make you seem a bit suspicious and if it was me working the traffic stop, you would be out in cuffs while I find the weapon for myself.

By not telling giving the officer that information you could be giving him reason to believe that maybe your weapon is stolen, your not carrying a weapon covered by your HCP, or you have other ill intentions. All PC for search.

What im getting at is just give them any information the request, its not hard, it doesn't take that much time. It will make everything a lot smoother.

[TMF]

I think that this falls into the category of "just because you can doesn't mean you should", ya know. If I get pulled over I tell a cop to pound sand 'cause I just pounded his wife. Is that illegal? I'm sure that can be twisted into disorderly or something, but otherwise I can do it. Buy why? Why be difficult if there isn't a necessity for it. We have all encountered at least one out of control LEO at some point (if not, go to New Jersey) but it doesn't do any good to argue or make an issue. If the LEO steps out of line, file a complaint and follow up w/ his supervisor. Write the mayor (I'm still waiting on response from the Mayor of Newark... WTF is a jughandle??) I just don't see any instance where being difficult with an LEO is going to end well or be worth it no matter how it turns out.