Pulled over last night - carrying

[zenman]

On my way back into town last night, somewhere around 2:30am, I work in Richmond VA during the week, I was hurrying a little, okay, a lot, to get home to my wife and son. I was five miles from our new place in downtown Knoxville when... BAM! flashing lights.

I pulled over and assumed "the position", window down and both hands on the wheel, no sudden movments. This is something I learned long ago from several of my officer friends back in Saint Louis.

The officer asked why I was in such a hurry. I told him that I had been out of town all week and was wanting to be home. He then asked for my ID and while I was pulling that out of my wallet he asked if I had a gun in the car. I responded that I did. He asked if I had a permit and I told him that I did and then presented him with both my DL and permit.

He was great about it and told me it that contrary to popular belief many officers like having upstanding citizens that are armed. "Can't carry us around on your back all the time" he said. He asked where the firearm was located in the car and I told him. Then gave me my permit back and proceeded with the ticket. He was curtious and friendly. He still gave me a ticket but gave me some info on how I could help myself when time for appearing.

[Guest msparks]

Crazy that he knew you had a gun in the car.

I wonder if you "have to answer that question" before he even pulls your license? Glad everything worked out. Too bad about the ticket.

[quietguy]

I wonder if you "have to answer that question" before he even pulls your license?

Yes, you do. In Tennessee, you don't have to declare, but you do have to answer truthfully if asked.

[bigwakes]

Crazy that he knew you had a gun in the car.

I wonder if you "have to answer that question" before he even pulls your license? Glad everything worked out. Too bad about the ticket.

Why would you ever not be truthful to an officer if you were not breaking the law. Not being truthful would be a mistake that could lead to a serious misunderstanding!

[JeffL]

He probably already knew you had a permit.

[Oh Shoot]

He probably already knew you had a permit.

Nope, have to run DL, tags aren't enough.

- OS

[Fallguy]

Yes, you do. In Tennessee, you don't have to declare, but you do have to answer truthfully if asked.

Well actually the law says you have to present your HCP upon demand, not answer questions.

But I wouldn't lie...that becomes a whole seperate issue besides why you were stopped and having the handgun.

[Fallguy]

Nope, have to run DL, tags aren't enough.

- OS

Well...they're not enough to find out in one step.

You can take the name that comes back from running the tags, run DL check with it and even if there is more than one you can match the address from the tag check.

I don't think this normally done, because who says the registered owner is the driver...but it can be done and I almost wonder if that was the case this time. Since the LEO did ask right away....

[Mike.357]

if I was a cop I would assume everyone I pulled over was armed, but would be very at ease once a HCP was shown to me.

[DaveTN]

Nope, have to run DL, tags aren't enough.

- OS

Many years ago I could run a plate and get both owner info and driver’s license info on the owner. That’s how we caught many suspended/revoked drivers. Can they not do that today?

[Fallguy]

Many years ago I could run a plate and get both owner info and driver’s license info on the owner. That’s how we caught many suspended/revoked drivers. Can they not do that today?

In TN the info is in two different databases and each one has to be checked individually.

[RobertNashville]

The only time I've been stopped (TN HP) while carrying it was a total non-issue. The Lieutenant didn't even ask nor did I bring it up which I was a little disappointed in myself for not doing so.

Based on training I've received about how to handle a traffic stop while armed as well as the fact that some states require to you inform up front (including some states I regularly travel in), I've always thought it best to at least hand the office my DL and my HCP at the same time but yet I didn't do so the only time I've been stopped! Not sure why I didn't; I just didn't.

In any case, it was a non-issue; although I still got the ticket!

[GIJake]

I've been pulled over twice by local PD while armed with no issues. I keep my HCP right behind my DL so that when I pull the DL out to hand it over, they see the HCP very clearly. Both times they asked if I was armed, and asked where the weapon was located. I told them and that was the end of it. The traffic stop continued normally. I recommend you be as truthful and forthcoming as possible. As an officer approaching a stranger, I'd like to know that he/she takes the first opportunity to inform me of a weapon. Officers I've known don't really like surprises involving weapons.

[Guest msparks]

Why would you ever not be truthful to an officer if you were not breaking the law. Not being truthful would be a mistake that could lead to a serious misunderstanding!

Sorry to get off topic, but I wanted to clarify how I feel about the situation.

I didn't say not to be truthful. That would be lying, as opposed to not answering questions from a government official. Don't we still have a Constitution and Bill of Rights that includes the 5th amendment?

I wondered as a CPL if you were required? not saying that you would or should lie.

I try to make it a point to answer as little as I can. #1 there are tens of thousands of laws on the books, anyone of us could be violating one of those laws at any point in time. I try not to incriminate myself if I can help it.

Officer: "How fast were you going?"

Suspect: " Respectfully Sir, Do I have to answer that question? Am I free to go?"

As opposed to:

Officer: "How fast were going?"

Suspect: "uh, maybe 65 in a 55", when you were really going 80.

#1, you just incriminated yourself, and #2 you lied to the officer to try to get a reduced sentence or ticket. Bad idea in my mind.

Officer: "Are you carrying any guns, large amounts of cash or drugs." This is usually how it goes in reality.

Suspect: "Respectfully Sir, do I have to answer that question? Am I free to go?"

Officer: Where are you going?

Suspect: "Respectfully Sir, do I have to answer that question? Am I free to go?"

Google "Don't talk to the police", this will show you where I'm coming from. Hope this helps.

Edited September 18, 2011 by msparks

[DaveTN]

I didn't say not to be truthful. That would be lying, as opposed to not answering questions from a government official. Don't we still have a Constitution and Bill of Rights that includes the 5th amendment?

The Constitution and the 5^th amendment have nothing to do with it. The 2^nd amendment doesn’t apply once your vehicle leaves your property.

It’s a crime in the state of Tennessee to carry a loaded gun in your car.

You have bought the special privilege of carrying a gun from the state, and you have agreed to comply with the requirements of that privilege.

Playing word games with a cop over a speeding ticket is no where near the same as being asked if you have a gun. If you have an HCP and you tell a cop you don’t have a gun, when you do, will you be arrested and go to criminal court? Probably not; the DOS will just give you hearing and then pull your permit.

Most of us here believe that we should have the right to carry without requiring a permit. But we are not in one of the states where that is the case. We have to live in the real world and abide by the laws; or lose our special permits status. Our special status is purchased; not guaranteed by the Constitution.

I doubt Google has ever been stopped by a cop. If you ever have the chance sit down one on one with a street cop and an attorney (a criminal defense attorney, not your tax attorney) and discuss what you should say. I would bet you money that those attorneys on the net that are trying to get you in a pizzing match with a cop; don’t give their own children the same info.

[RobertNashville]

Sorry to get off topic, but I wanted to clarify how I feel about the situation.

I didn't say not to be truthful. That would be lying, as opposed to not answering questions from a government official. Don't we still have a Constitution and Bill of Rights that includes the 5th amendment?

I wondered as a CPL if you were required? not saying that you would or should lie.

I try to make it a point to answer as little as I can. #1 there are tens of thousands of laws on the books, anyone of us could be violating one of those laws at any point in time. I try not to incriminate myself if I can help it.

Officer: "How fast were you going?"

Suspect: " Respectfully Sir, Do I have to answer that question? Am I free to go?"

As opposed to:

Officer: "How fast were going?"

Suspect: "uh, maybe 65 in a 55", when you were really going 80.

#1, you just incriminated yourself, and #2 you lied to the officer to try to get a reduced sentence or ticket. Bad idea in my mind.

Officer: "Are you carrying any guns, large amounts of cash or drugs." This is usually how it goes in reality.

Suspect: "Respectfully Sir, do I have to answer that question? Am I free to go?"

Officer: Where are you going?

Suspect: "Respectfully Sir, do I have to answer that question? Am I free to go?"

Google "Don't talk to the police", this will show you where I'm coming from. Hope this helps.

It is, I think in every state, to lie to a LEO.

It is also, I think, very good advice to not offer any statement that could be used against you which is why, most attorneys will tell you to say nothing.

That said, I also think that saying nothing at all could lead to more problems/raise the officer's suspicion, etc.

What I'm suggesting is that you need to strike a balance; say as little as possible - don't volunteer anything - be pleasant and cooperative as possible while still not giving any information that would be harmful to you and, above all, anything you do say needs to be truthful.

Now...if the officer suspects you might be guilty of something really serious (as opposed to a traffic infraction) then yes; I'd say absolutely nothing except name, address and "Officer, I don't want to be uncooperative but I don't want to say anything else without counsel present"

[Guest msparks]

I doubt Google has ever been stopped by a cop. If you ever have the chance sit down one on one with a street cop and an attorney (a criminal defense attorney, not your tax attorney) and discuss what you should say. I would bet you money that those attorneys on the net that are trying to get you in a pizzing match with a cop; don’t give their own children the same info.

FYI I was pulled over in Oklahoma coming back from Ft Riley going to Ft. Bliss. Had 2 weeks of TDY.

Anyhow, this Okey HP pulls me over in some small town going like 52 in a 45 or something. He immediatly says he isn't going to give me a ticket but ran my plates and license anyhow.

Then he started asking my the guns, cash and drugs question which I said no. Then he proceeded to want to search my car as which time I said no. Talk about a nervous situation, but I still did not let him search my car.

He let me go, to which he followed me the next 5 miles or so to the NM border. Then I realize a little bit later that I had 3 large trash bags with clothes and gear in my back seat. I bet he wonders to this day what was in there, good thing he didn't check, I'm sure those close were nasty, we had a couple field problems and many a long day. I didn't do any laundy as I had enough last me the whole time.

Anyhow I'm sure there are some LEO on here reading this, good for them I'm sure they are just wonderful people etc. I'm not going to give up my rights to someone "fishing" for information. This still is a free country for the time being anyhow (don't know how much longer)

LEO pulls me for speeding and without even asking for my license starts asking questions, he will get a mute me. I will give my DL registration, along with my CPL, if I'm carrying. That's it. Oh and he will get a "Have a nice day Officer, thanks for all you do"

[Guest justluck]

FYI I was pulled over in Oklahoma coming back from Ft Riley going to Ft. Bliss. Had 2 weeks of TDY.

Anyhow, this Okey HP pulls me over in some small town going like 52 in a 45 or something. He immediatly says he isn't going to give me a ticket but ran my plates and license anyhow.

Then he started asking my the guns, cash and drugs question which I said no. Then he proceeded to want to search my car as which time I said no. Talk about a nervous situation, but I still did not let him search my car.

He let me go, to which he followed me the next 5 miles or so to the NM border. Then I realize a little bit later that I had 3 large trash bags with clothes and gear in my back seat. I bet he wonders to this day what was in there, good thing he didn't check, I'm sure those close were nasty, we had a couple field problems and many a long day. I didn't do any laundy as I had enough last me the whole time.

Anyhow I'm sure there are some LEO on here reading this, good for them I'm sure they are just wonderful people etc. I'm not going to give up my rights to someone "fishing" for information. This still is a free country for the time being anyhow (don't know how much longer)

LEO pulls me for speeding and without even asking for my license starts asking questions, he will get a mute me. I will give my DL registration, along with my CPL, if I'm carrying. That's it. Oh and he will get a "Have a nice day Officer, thanks for all you do"

You are aware that in OK you have a positive responsibility to immediately inform any LEO you come in contact with that you have a concealed handgun (If indeed you do). This is required even if he doesn't ask you a question. There are other states like that also.

[BlackHawk93]

Sounds like you havent gotten your Tennessee HCP yet as you keep referring to your license as a CPL. If you think about the situation the officer is in, he is probably asking for his own peace of mind, safety. If you have a permit to carry and are asked, what is your reason for wanting to keep that a secret when he will find out anyway if he runs your drivers license? Then he's going to be suspicious as to what else you might have for not offering up the truth? If he asks you if you have a drivers license are you going to answer mutely? Sometimes by cooperating and being polite you just may get a break as opposed to being difficult and setting yourself up for a more difficult time than need be

[East_TN_Patriot]

What I'm suggesting is that you need to strike a balance; say as little as possible - don't volunteer anything - be pleasant and cooperative as possible while still not giving any information that would be harmful to you and, above all, anything you do say needs to be truthful.

Now...if the officer suspects you might be guilty of something really serious (as opposed to a traffic infraction) then yes; I'd say absolutely nothing except name, address and "Officer, I don't want to be uncooperative but I don't want to say anything else without counsel present"

^^^This. As a former cop and a college professor, I strongly advocate those words. Unfortunately, on the latter point, simply exercising your 5th Amendment rights will virtually guarantee your arrest, because too many cops (and people in general) equate that to guilt.

What is missing in this discussion is the simple point that we have to have it in the first place. It's a real problem that there are so many LEOs out there who we know will treat us like criminals just because we have chosen to exercise our 2nd Amendment rights and if we say or do the wrong thing, we will potentially end up in jail, the hospital, or the morgue if we say the wrong thing. I still believe that the majority of LEOs are the kind discussed by the OP, but there are still far too many of the Canton, Ohio type out there running the roads with no direct supervision and protected by the profession (it's amazing how many cops will defend obviously inappropriate, unethical, and illegal behavior even if they don't agree with it). I wish I had a simple answer to this, but there isn't one except that good citizens have to keep calling out these bad apples and staying on it until they are dealt with. Just as in society, the cultural changes within the profession that need to take place are slow and difficult to make happen.

[Guest msparks]

Sounds like you havent gotten your Tennessee HCP yet as you keep referring to your license as a CPL. If you think about the situation the officer is in, he is probably asking for his own peace of mind, safety. If you have a permit to carry and are asked, what is your reason for wanting to keep that a secret when he will find out anyway if he runs your drivers license?

CPL, HCP, what have you. The damn handgun card in my wallet, what ever the acronym for it is called. Yes I have one and carry it with me anytime I have a gun on me as it's the law.

And Yes give your permit along with your DL. I will normally have these ready before he even gets up to the car.

If you think about the situation the officer is in, he is probably asking for his own peace of mind, safety.

Officer peace of mine (I don't give a darned about his piece of mind.) I only care about the law.

Then he's going to be suspicious as to what else you might have for not offering up the truth?

Why do we keep getting this construed that I'm indicating that I am or anyone should be lying or not being truthful? I never said, as a matter of fact I have said again and again NOT TO LIE TO THE POLICE, it's against the law.

Sometimes by cooperating and being polite you just may get a break as opposed to being difficult and setting yourself up for a more difficult time than need be

I value my privacy, the law and the Constitution much more than I care about getting a break.

BTW I never said don't be polite, Please be extremely, almost sickingly polite. If you get pulled over you are the one that should be concerned with safety, as I believe you are in the position of most vulnerability. He can shoot you and get a free paid vacation, we are as the say "on the wrong side of the law"

Some of this thread is maybe being taken the wrong way, and I'm sorry that it's hard for those reading to not get the context which I'm communicating.

Again, don't lie to the police, show your HCP (Handgun license if you are carrying) and be polite.....all while maintaining your own individual rights as much as you can.

But, if you would like to spill the beans, have your car checked, divulge that you are guilty of whatever so be it. It's still a free country and you are free to implicate yourself in any of the 10,000+ laws on the books.

[Guest msparks]

You are aware that in OK you have a positive responsibility to immediately inform any LEO you come in contact with that you have a concealed handgun (If indeed you do). This is required even if he doesn't ask you a question. There are other states like that also.

This was over 10 years ago, and the gun was in the trunk. He asked about drugs, large amounts of cash (like whatever that means $100 is large to me, and guns) I said NO! probably today I would have worded it differently. I would have refused to answer, just like any other question he would ask.

If my "papers" were in order that's all he needs to know.

[DaveTN]

Officer peace of mine (I don't give a darned about his piece of mind.) I only care about the law.

If my "papers" were in order that's all he needs to know.

That speaks volumes. Why would you have that attitude? There is nothing in the Constitution or Tennessee state law that requires a Police Officer or a Citizen to put their life in danger. As a Police Officer I would do whatever it takes to go home alive. I know that’s not popular with some, but that’s the way it is; HCP holders are not living at the foot of the cross, they have killed cops on traffic stops.

No, in Tennessee you are not required to notify. However you asked a question wondering if you were required to answer that question when asked. Yes, it’s the law. You do not have a right to remain silent and cannot invoke the 5^th.

You have no more a right to privacy when he asks you if you have a gun than when he asks if you have a driver’s license.

[Guest msparks]

No attitude here, I'm for everyone involved to get home safely, officer included.

No, in Tennessee you are not required to notify. However you asked a question wondering if you were required to answer that question when asked. Yes, it’s the law. You do not have a right to remain silent and cannot invoke the 5^th. You have no more a right to privacy when he asks you if you have a gun than when he asks if you have a driver’s license.

Thanks I guess that answers the question. Does handing the officer your HCP constitute notification?

Edited September 19, 2011 by msparks

[pattywak]

So in TN, you are NOT required to tell the cop up front that you are an HCP holder and have a gun in the car, but if he ASKS you about it then you have to show him your HCP? Would it be advised to just hand over your HCP with your Drivers License at the start?