What do you do?

[TNFF319]

LiveLeak.com - Violence in another Mc Donalds almost kills customer

What would you do?

Edited September 15, 2011 by TNFF319

[Guest bkelm18]

I don't like these threads because it is hard to say without being there. I would have certainly done something. Perhaps some pepper spray would have resolved it. I doubt I would have drawn my weapon until it was evident the woman was receiving life threatening injuries. If she was actually beaten to the point of seizure I would constitute that as a life threatening event but I doubt I would have done anything beyond drawing unless I was 100% certain murder was on their mind. Defense of third party is too murky to say for certain without being there.

[MudBugjr]

If I was McDonalds I would clear house on that location. There is no way I wouldn't have stopped that if I was there until the police showed up. Thats crazy and them telling the girls that did it to run before the police show up. What class!!!

[MudBugjr]

Like bkelm18 said I wouldn't have drawn my weapon either unless someone had a weapon

[pattywak]

I've seen this video a while back, but only a shorter version. And I will preface everything I say by saying I don't know the story behind the attack, so the only facts I can base my call off of are what is shown in the video.

First, I'm amazed that the employees at McDonalds would let this go on like that in their store. I am studying Psychology and I know all about the bystander effect, but that doesn't excuse the fact that management didn't seem to be actively doing anything. They might have called the police, but I feel like they should take a more active approach in dealing with things like this. The update from McDonald's posted on that link also is a typical cookiecutter answer.

As far as what I personally would do, it's very hard for me to accurately say that. The way the video and the text description is portrayed, it makes you want to jump in and help the victim. But, like I said, the full circumstances of what's going on are still up for question. It's easy to say it's some black girls just beating up a white girl, but you never know. That being said, I would like to think I would have tried to break up the fight and separate the two parties involved until authorities get there. I would NOT have pulled my gun on anyone unless my life was being put in serious direct danger.

It's hard for me to say for sure what I would do in this, or any, situation. It's always fun to speculate, though, I suppose, and to begin to mentally prepare yourself for such occurrences.

[TNFF319]

Put the victim in the bathroom and deny entry to everyone. I think the two keep beating the victim because they know they have nothing to worry about. No one will stop it and the victim was easy prey. If someone with some power would have demanded it to stop, I feel it would have ended.

[Fivestring63]

I probably would've helped but not drawn unless they turned their rage against me which

the one guy was doing a pretty good job of keeping them off her and they didn't turn on him.

I think the best course of action would've been to seperate them by taking the beaten one

in the bathroom and locking the door or taking her behind the counter somewhere.

The other guys are total wimps for just standing around and filming.

[Fallguy]

Not that I've seen a fight in a long time...but my "basic" rule is as long as a person is still up and able to defend themselves then normally I wouldn't interfere (there are always exceptions to every rule). Now if one person goes down, gets knocked out, gives up or can't defend themselves any more...then IMO the fight is over and the winner needs to move on.

It seems in the video there is several times the one gal appeared to "give up" and didn't want to fight...so "I think" I would have tried to stop it, probably by placing myself between her and the others.

Nothing in the video I saw warranted the threat or use of deadly force.

[southernasylum]

Not sure what I would do in that situation but I worked in Mc D's all thru high school. When I was 17 one of the female employees husbands came to the counter to continue a domestic dispute with his wife. It got loud and she walked away towards the back thru the kitchen. The husband followed her and started beating her. I was on the other side of the kitchen and was astonished that everyone nearby except the one smallest female worker were just watching her get beat on the ground. He just threw her across the room and continued his attack. I had to push my way thru the bystanders to help out. I was no match for the huge man who had his wife pinned on the ground but I had to do something. I grabbed him from behind and carried him in a bear hug out to the lobby and would not let him pass me while I was able to stand. He tried to move me aside a couple of times but I stood my ground and he ran off. I was scared to death but I had to do something, anything.

[Guest bkelm18]

Pepper spray grenade. Clear the whole joint.

[strickj]

Not that I've seen a fight in a long time...but my "basic" rule is as long as a person is still up and able to defend themselves then normally I wouldn't interfere (there are always exceptions to every rule). Now if one person goes down, gets knocked out, gives up or can't defend themselves any more...then IMO the fight is over and the winner needs to move on.

It seems in the video there is several times the one gal appeared to "give up" and didn't want to fight...so "I think" I would have tried to stop it, probably by placing myself between her and the others.

Nothing in the video I saw warranted the threat or use of deadly force.

I pretty much agree except for your last sentence. The girl was beaten by two women until she started having seizures and blood pouring out of her head.

[Fallguy]

I pretty much agree except for your last sentence. The girl was beaten by two women until she started having seizures and blood pouring out of her head.

You're right....I should have noted I stoped the video just as they were going outside....and didn't see that part.

I should have said as long as they were inside.....

My bad...

[Guest ArmaDeFuego]

Its sad but in the US today the best thing you can do is just stand back & record it. If you try to intervene you can end up being sued by someone for something & even if you didnt do anything wrong you will probably have to spend an assload of money just to defend yourself. The only thing you cant get sued for in today's world is if you do nothing. Thankfully there are no laws (yet) that compel you to act in these situations.

[Guest Red5]

It's always hard to say without being there but based on the video, I would have gotten involved long before it became a situation where a weapon would be needed/justified. Its clearly uneven from the start so when it breaks up the first time, I would have gotten her into the mfr office where she would be safe. If they return and seem determined, call the cops.

If the manager would have isolated the girl the first chance he had, she would have walked away from the whole thing.

[Fallguy]

Its sad but in the US today the best thing you can do is just stand back & record it. If you try to intervene you can end up being sued by someone for something & even if you didnt do anything wrong you will probably have to spend an assload of money just to defend yourself. The only thing you cant get sued for in today's world is if you do nothing. Thankfully there are no laws (yet) that compel you to act in these situations.

Nothing says someone can't name you as a party to lawsuit even if you didn't act. They probably wouldn't have much of a case, but they could still name you.

I guess my point is, while civil liability is something to think about it....I'm not ready for it to make me just stand by and do nothing in every situation if I feel I can do something to make the outcome better.

[Erik88]

those girls are complete trash. I would have enjoyed giving them a dose of Freeze +P to the face. No way I could sit by and watch something like that happen. No way I would have drawn my gun either. Pepper spray would have done the trick.

[Guest No Ammo]

those girls are complete trash. I would have enjoyed giving them a dose of Freeze +P to the face. No way I could sit by and watch something like that happen. No way I would have drawn my gun either. Pepper spray would have done the trick.

+1

[wcsc12]

LiveLeak.com - Violence in another Mc Donalds almost kills customer

What would you do?

It really is hard to say what you would do. I would step in but that's just me. If I were an employee though, I would just call the police and do nothing. The simple reason is because you'll be fired if you step in as it makes the company liable.

[Guest bkelm18]

those girls are complete trash. I would have enjoyed giving them a dose of Freeze +P to the face. No way I could sit by and watch something like that happen. No way I would have drawn my gun either. Pepper spray would have done the trick.

+1. This is probably the perfect situation for pepper spray. Blast those bitches in the face with some hot sauce... their attention wont be with the girl on the ground anymore.

[Guest Chattanoogan]

Having known somebody who was brutally beaten by her ex-boyfriend to the point of seizure, and now having to deal with seizures for the rest of her life because of it, maybe even needing some brain surgery. I dont think I could of stood by and let this happen. When she first went down and was in the fetal position, the fight should of been over. In my opinion after that point, it goes from Assault to Attempted Murder. However I also couldn't justify the use of deadly force as they had no weapon. Pepper spray would have been a good option, but considering I dont carry pepper spray I suppose I would have to try my best to man-handle these two women. Locking the victim in the bathroom would be a good choice, if I had the wisdom to think about it during the struggle. Adrenaline is usually high in these situations as you would imagine and not everyone thinks clearly.

[Lumber_Jack]

+1. This is probably the perfect situation for pepper spray. Blast those bitches in the face with some hot sauce... their attention wont be with the girl on the ground anymore.

I don't carry pepper spray but I would have asked if anyone had some. I have zero tolerance for beating someone once they've quit fighting.

Hell at the very least get in there and dot that bitches eye good. I bet they would have run or given up. I'll deal with the consequences later

[Guest bkelm18]

This thread has given me a bit to think about regarding the use of force continuum. I don't currently carry pepper spray but I think I might start. If nothing else just to have some when I'm on school property instead of being completely defenseless.

[Guest nysos]

To sort of link this thread to the 3 girls invading the house thread - you all are mainly saying you would not use lethal force in this case, but not in the video. Now since we have a video, I actually agree - mainly because when the manager steps in, they don't turn their aggression to him. I forget the name of the case, but a guy stopped at a gas station, and was coming out and saw an officer being beaten by a much larger man. No weapon, but he was in control of the officer (straddling him), and taking his head and slamming it into the concrete. The guy that came out I believe had to walk with a cane (he was also either a former firearms instructor, or a writer or something, I forget), he retrieved his 1911 from his glovebox in his truck - ordered the man off the officer. He did not comply, he shot him once, with no effect. Ordered him off again, did not comply, shot again striking him in the chest. Still no effect, so he literally walked up next to the guy and shot him in the head.

The shooting was justified, granted this instance was with much more intensity than the one in the video, but I think you would be justified in stepping in and ordering the other 2 girls away. I feel the beating shouldn't have gotten to the point where the girl had a seizure. I think you would probably be justified in drawing and keeping it at a low ready, and warning them away if they continued. If they continued the assault on the victim, while she was having the seizure, I feel you would be justified in lethal force as the victim can no longer defend herself. Again, it would all be situational though...assuming you draw, and they still move forward against you and try to beat the girl on the ground.

Just to play devils advocate, how would your response have changed if say it was a 70 year old lady on the ground? or a 12 year old boy? A family member of yours?

I can say I would like to have done something, but I do not know what I would do unless confronted with the situation. I can play armchair quarterback all day long with the "what ifs", or "I would have". Anything you do, can change the response of the attackers, the 2 girls attacking are clearly unstable and out of their mind. In this case, I can say I would have been on the phone with police in the least, as well as trying to get license plate numbers, giving off descriptions, even if I did not step in immediately. Seeing the manager step in and attempt to stop them, I am surprised others did not try and assist. Generally when it comes to stepping in to something like that, people hesitate to be the first person, but once someone is there to "lead the movement", others will step up as well. All it would have taken is 1-2 of the other employees to get in front of the girl and say "back off!" to stop the beating in this case (or so it seemed).

[Tedro2022]

Management at the location is responsible for breaking up the fight, they're responsible for all patron's safety while they are on the premises.

It makes me sick to see male employees standing around not doing anything to prevent the attack. Being a former store manager (not in the fast food environment) I dealt with a lot of teens and early 20 year olds and their B.S. Always sided with my employees, but there was never an altercation in the work place, because my employees knew that they would get canned on the spot. Always told them to take it up with whoever after work, off the premises.

If I were a patron in the store, I would have definitely attempted to break it up. If the girls turned their aggression toward me, then yeah I probably draw on them. Until that happens, all you can do is try to separate them from the girl.

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[Guest Broomhead]

I'll preface this by saying that without knowing what started the fight, I can only go on what details I do know. If the victim started the confrontation, then I would not draw my gun, but I would stop it.

Disparity of Force, two on one. I would have stepped in, put the victim in one bathroom and the attackers in the other and kept my feet in front of both doors until the cops and EMTs arrived, Citizens Arrest. If the two girls tried to turn their attack towards me, or got out and tried to continue attacking the victim, I would have drawn and kept it low ready until I heard police sirens or saw the cops pull up.

I agree that after the victim was on the ground in the fetal position, it should have ended or been stopped. Hell, it should have been stopped before that point.