withdrawn

[Symbolic]

Moped, I live in Knoxville. I cleared that up in post #6.

msparks, you are correct. My girlfriend and I practiced buggin out a short while after my first post here. We basically went camping with everything I had in my bag on a mountain north of Knoxville. We made it alright but we learned more about preparedness than about survival. However, I say now that I'd rather make friends with someone or a group of people with land and resources and work together. We've reworked our bug out plans and locations. Right now I've got two and a third one might be in the making. The mountain we went to in October is no longer in the picture at all.

Baron, sounds like you've got a good plan. It is very similar to ours. Our home however is not our first priority. We live in a small apartment surrounded by college kids. We live in the Fort Sanders neighborhood near downtown Ktown and the UT campus. We have a small cache of food which we could easily pack within 10 minutes and get to our first and closet location about 15 minutes away in Louisville. Luckily there's more than one way to get there but they will likely be heavily trafficked. Our 2nd location is up in Maynardville, close to where we originally "bugged" out. Both locations are modest houses on a mountain owned by friends' family. While I haven't been taught survival skills I can offer both places another pair of hands and some firepower.

[Moped]

Sorry Jwolf, I must have missed the post. Sounds like your planning is starting to come together, though.

Baron, it sounds like you and the Mrs. have it going on!!!

[Guest Baron]

I believe these simple rules

1. Have a plan and practice it.

2. Have backup plans and practice them as well. There is a 99.999% chance something will go wrong with plan A.

3. Have your supplies split between locations and be realistic about the ratio.

4. Limit travel time to 3 days because thats about all you will be able to carry full supplies for if you end up footing it.

I am 5"7" and 165 pounds. I hit the gym at least 4 days a week and while I probably wont end up on any magazine covers, I am physically fit. My bag alone is almost 40 pounds. Add weapons and ammo and that can go over 50 pounds. Humping that for a full day on foot is a real physical challenge.

Hopefully, vehicle travel is possible, but you have to plan for the scenario where it is not. Also remember that if the roads are blocked, it probably isn't possible or safe to walk the road. Anywhere I have been in TN (outside the paved cities) means very uneven terrain so that gear just got a lot more cumbersome.

Unless you are the type of guy that can start his own paradise with just a machete, "bugging out" should be kept to a minimum.

[Moped]

Baron, your correct about keeping it to a minimum, cause you can't haul it all!

[gregintenn]

You want to hone your survival skills? Make and can a garden. Hunt; kill, process, and eat the food you produce. Go to a gun show with $500 and turn it into $1000 before you leave. When your car breaks down, fix it yourself. Produce something with your own hands and sell it for a profit. These are survival skills; not camping at a park.

[Guest bkelm18]

These are survival skills; not camping at a park.

You gotta start somewhere. If you don't know how to even car camp, you're never going to be able to rough it anywhere.

[Moped]

You gotta start somewhere. If you don't know how to even car camp, you're never going to be able to rough it anywhere.

This is true. Got to take baby steps first.

[Timestepper]

Lotta' good responses. FWIW, here's mine (please bear in mind that it's worth exactly what you're paying to read it).

K.I.S.,S (Keep it simple, stupid.)

In a true bugout situation - that is to say where it's wholly untenable to remain where you are - you're going to need to move fast and you're going to need to move quietly. If you've made preparations in advance, great. If you haven't, then don't spend valuable time considering every stinking little item you're going to take. Grab what you can carry and get the hell out.

Planning on leaving via automobile? Great! Grab whatever you can fit in the back seat or trunk and get out - you can always trim it down later. If some of the stuff you grab happens to have multiple uses, so much the better.

Always keep in the back of your mind that you'll eventually wind up on foot and with potential enemies all around you (that is to say, the rest of the population who is just as scared as you are) the most important rule of thumb is to never "own" anything that you can't carry on your back at a dead run.

A good stout knife, your firearm of choice with as much ammunition as you can carry, 5 pounds of rice, 5 pounds of flour, a couple of reliable fire starting methods, something to carry water in, something to BOIL water in, a compass if you know how to use it - if you don't then throw it away, because it won't do you any good and you don't need the extra weight (this applies to EVERY item you take) - a pound of salt, a couple of blankets and/or a sleeping bag. Toss in a couple of extra spoons and DO NOT forget to take something to sharpen your knife and clean your firearm. Grab whatever you usually carry in your shaving kit and take it, but dump out all the "stink water" because you don't want a potential enemy smelling your sweet @$$ before you see him. Smelling good only matters for polite company. I'm not saying don't bathe, cleanliness is important, just don't powder and perfume yourself afterwards. Basic first aid needs can be kept simple and carried in your shaving kit - a box of bandaids, some duct tape and a tube of antibiotic ointment don't take up much room.

If you have a back pack that you can fit everything into, great. If you don't, I suggest you learn how make and use a tumpline bedroll. If you've got room to take extra clothing and don't mind carrying the extra weight, great. Otherwise, pick one set of durable clothes and wear them - you'll still be carrying them, just not on your back.

I've covered basic food items already. If you want to take extra, that's up to you. Coffee, tea and sugar are luxury items, but they can also be important items when it comes to maintaining mental health and a positive attitude. Your choice. When you have more time - after the initial "Holy bat*****, Robin, lets make like a shepherd and get the flock outta' here!" adrenalin rush is over - you can trim down and/or beef up your kit.

If you want to prepare in advance, the best rule I've ever heard is this: Take everything you think you're going to need and pile it on the floor in the living room. Divide it in half. Take the remaining pile and divide it in half again. Pick through the pile you have left and discard anything you don't know how to use. Take what's left and that's your bugout kit.

...TS...

[Symbolic]

gregintenn, you have very good suggestions. For the most part, they give me no problems except for the gardening. I live in an apartment, in a city, with concrete everywhere. I cannot even start a window garden because the other apartment buildings cast shadows on my unit. However, that's no reason not to learn. How about you teach me or show me some gardening and canning techniques sometime? I also have a suggestion for your list. Learn first aid skills. I have signed up for a Red Cross First Aid and CPR class so that if I ever have to get the heck out of town and make it the hard way, I will be able to effectively treat injuries should they occur. As far as our camping went, that was to see if the contents of my bug out bag were sufficient to sustain two people for a couple days away from society. It wasn't useless either. Bug out bags aren't meant for long term survival like the suggestions you made are. My goal however is to learn and retain various skills for long term survival. My bug out bag just helps me on our way.

[Troutburger]

Here's a fun game to play. Pick any random event it has to be common enough to happen, but uncommon enough to be unpredictable. Say a wrecked pickup truck...

After work on Friday, if you or your girlfriend see a wrecked pick up truck on the news, newspaper, or in real life. That is the catalyst. The triggering event if you will.

Upon seeing the triggering event. Implement your bug out plan. Which for this test is just a two night car camping trip at your local camp ground. Or pre-established motel.

You have 5-10 minutes to gather everything you need. If it takes longer than 10 minutes from the triggering event to get to your car... you lose.

Get in your car and head to the local campground. If you don't have enough gas to make it. You lose contest over.

If you don't have enough cash on hand to pay for the camp site. You lose contest over.

If you don't have enough food to make it till check out on Sunday. You lose.

If it gets too cold and you have to leave early...you lose.

Its just a fun way to test bug out preparedness, and an excuse to get away for the weekend.

You can do the same thing for a shelter in place. Upon a predetermined random event, shut off the electricity and water to your apt and enjoy the silence...

[gregintenn]

gregintenn, you have very good suggestions. For the most part, they give me no problems except for the gardening. I live in an apartment, in a city, with concrete everywhere. I cannot even start a window garden because the other apartment buildings cast shadows on my unit. However, that's no reason not to learn. How about you teach me or show me some gardening and canning techniques sometime? I also have a suggestion for your list. Learn first aid skills. I have signed up for a Red Cross First Aid and CPR class so that if I ever have to get the heck out of town and make it the hard way, I will be able to effectively treat injuries should they occur. As far as our camping went, that was to see if the contents of my bug out bag were sufficient to sustain two people for a couple days away from society. It wasn't useless either. Bug out bags aren't meant for long term survival like the suggestions you made are. My goal however is to learn and retain various skills for long term survival. My bug out bag just helps me on our way.

You are correct! First aid skills, supplies, and knowledge are very important things to have available. I let that slip my mind when I made the post. I've covered this before, but my point is aimed at the whole "bug out" scenerio that seems to repeatedly come up here. It seems that there are a lot of people who for some reason plan to grab their gun and bag and head out into the wilderness in the event of an emergency. That just isn't a realistic scenerio. I'm not sure what can happen to trigger this, but the people out in the country, at least where I live, will not be happy about "foreigners" camping, hunting, etc. on their property. I do not mean to sound condescending; just realistic.

[gregintenn]

Here's a fun game to play. Pick any random event it has to be common enough to happen, but uncommon enough to be unpredictable. Say a wrecked pickup truck...

After work on Friday, if you or your girlfriend see a wrecked pick up truck on the news, newspaper, or in real life. That is the catalyst. The triggering event if you will.

Upon seeing the triggering event. Implement your bug out plan. Which for this test is just a two night car camping trip at your local camp ground. Or pre-established motel.

You have 5-10 minutes to gather everything you need. If it takes longer than 10 minutes from the triggering event to get to your car... you lose.

Get in your car and head to the local campground. If you don't have enough gas to make it. You lose contest over.

If you don't have enough cash on hand to pay for the camp site. You lose contest over.

If you don't have enough food to make it till check out on Sunday. You lose.

If it gets too cold and you have to leave early...you lose.

Its just a fun way to test bug out preparedness, and an excuse to get away for the weekend.

You can do the same thing for a shelter in place. Upon a predetermined random event, shut off the electricity and water to your apt and enjoy the silence...

Now that could be interesting!

[Kylev87]

jwolf I live about an hour from Knoxville. I would say the closest thing to being able to practice bugging out would be to go backpacking that way all you will have is what you can carry. Maybe go to the AT (appalachian trail) for a couple day trip or Cades Cove which would be part of the AT also.

[Wheelgunner]

I think we all know this, but it's worth mentioning anyway:

"Bugging out" does not mean going to the woods.

"Bugging out" means leaving a dangerous place and going to a safer place. Generally we think in terms of getting away from highly populated areas, on the presumption that due to fear most people will stop acting rationally and become a threat to their neighbors. But getting away from that threat does not, as a rule, require you to set up a tent by a creek and start eating opossum. That's one method, but it has numerous drawbacks, the most salient of which is lack of supplies.

But there are any number of approaches to getting away from the masses. I have seen self-storage facilities in rural areas that would be perfect for a bug out location - rent a small space in which you store supplies, weapons, etc., complete with a fence/wall. Great for students who live on a campus far from home and can't keep firearms in the dorms. I've also seen municipal and county facilites (water pumping stations, etc.) that are off the beaten path but still offer a tall chain link fence, four walls, and a roof for anyone who is forced to take shelter there during an emergency and brings a couple tools to gain access. Maybe even your place of work could serve well. Most business buildings would be deserted during a prolonged natural disaster or other event, and if you stash some gear in the ceiling of a bathroom or janitor's closet... you get the idea. Just want to encourage everyone to think outside the box.

[Guest brentt]

That is incorrect. By law, ALL state parks in TN are carry friendly, regardless of any signs. Yes, Frozen Head does have a sign saying firearms are prohibited but that does not apply to people with a permit.

thats good to know. i knew they changed the law but when i was in the smokies i saw the prohibited sign. i wasnt sure. i just tucked it in and went on. lol.

[Guest bkelm18]

thats good to know. i knew they changed the law but when i was in the smokies i saw the prohibited sign. i wasnt sure. i just tucked it in and went on. lol.

Well the Smokies is a National Park not a State Park. However carry is still allowed there as well, just not inside the buildings.

[Dolomite_supafly]

A couple of questions on your plan.

Do you own the land you are planning to bug out to?

Are you already living on that land?

Reason I ask is there are plenty of people who plan on bugging out and I wonder where. Most of them say they plan to head to the hills which is a huge problem because there are already people in those hills living there right now. And those people are going to defend their location or at least I know I will. And don't expect others to openly welcome a large group of people. I know I won't welcome anyone unless they bring a significant skill to the group and honestly I can't imagine what that skill might be that isn't already covered. There are less than 5 people that will be invited in and all others will be turned away with overwhelming amount of force.

I will say this to all of those planning on bugging out to the hills. I will defend what is mine, including land, from any squatters or looters. After all if you show up and try to take what isn't yours you are a thief. That includes wild game, plants or anything on my property even if I do not need it or not using it that stuff is still mine. I may have more than I need to survive but I will not share any of it with complete strangers. I have made preparations to ensure my survivability and I would be a fool to give any of it up to complete strangers.

It takes a lot of land to support a person year around. An acre or two isn't going to cut it. It will likely take 10's of acres per person.

And what makes the average person think they are going to make it ouf of a population center before the other 50% of the other people leaving the cities clog the roadways? What is going to happen is the highways are going to clog like Rita/ Katrina leaving leaving them stranded and with the option of walking to the "hills" or walking back to the cities. And when you start walking you are going to be able to carry far less than what you left with or even left behind.

Bugging in has some real advantages and if I lived in a city I would, without a doubt, stay put. First is you already have everything you are going to have without the need to transport it to a new location. You can call for help from those around you while in a remote location you cannot call for help. Another big advantage is you know the area. You also know who friend and who foe is or at least have a good idea. Travelling exposes you to more dangers. It is also easier to defend a building or high rise than a tent in the woods.Those buildings are going to protect you from the elements and be easier to keep warm in and survive in for the average person especially those used to living in the city. Food, at least initially, will be easier to come by in the cities as well as potable water. There are literally a few weeks worth of potable water in your water heater and toilet bowls and that is if you don't ration. With rain gutters, collecting water is much easier too. And as disgusting as it might sound cities have tons of rodents that can be harvested for food. If any type of relief or supplies is handed out it is going to be in the population centers first.

The average person is going to have a far easier time surviving in the city than in the "hills".

But if you must bug out and have any hope of bugging out you must be packed and ready to go in a moments notice. Vehicles have to ALWAYS have the gas needed to make it to that location. When the SHTF gas will be gone within minutes unless you are at the pumps pumping your gas as it takes place.

You need to also realize that there are going to be a lot more people than just you heading to a bug out location. This is going to clog the roadways like we saw during Rita/Katrina. The only way you might get a head start is if you are in a position to get some notice, like LE, emergency services or the government would get to prepare. Otherwise it is going to be a race to get out and if you are not in the lead you will find yourself stuck in the rear. And once you are stuck you and your stuff become vulnerable to roaming bands of thugs set on taking your stuff for themselves. And honestly it would be easy pickings.

As far as your bug out location you need to own the property you plan to go to. This can give you a little bit of a delay in the squatters that will show up. And once there the squatters are not going to readily leave even if you tell them you own the property. If your bug out location is "public lands" you are not going to be the first there, it will be like winning the lottery if you are. You are going to find yourself surrounded by thousands of others who have the same plan.

Most people don't realize that best case scenario crops will be edible in 4 months. If it happened today we are looking at close to a year before crops can begin to be harvested. So that means you are going to have to transport that much food because you are not going to be able to kill a years worth of food with everyone else trying to do the same thing.

And as much as I hate to say it in order to survive people must loose their conscience. They must be willing to turn those less fortunate away unless they bring a substantial advantage to the group.

People have this grand illusion that they are going to be able to find virgin land to live off of. Look around, how much public land do you see? And of that how much is going to be free for the taking, not much if any, by the time they make it?

Dolomite

[Guest bkelm18]

^^

Yeah I've always wondered about this illusion that some people create for themselves that they'll just set out and find some parcel of land and live off it. Chances are, if it looks good to you, it's looked good to lots of other people as well, and you won't be alone. If you don't already have the land and have made preparations to live off of it, you're gonna be in a bad situation. If we're talking a total TEOTWAWKI type event, personally I don't plan on living too much beyond it. If it's a local or regional event, I have enough to survive and make it to somewhere more habitable.

[enfield]

1. What is this difference between bugging out and going camping?

Give me your phone # and I'll call at some random time and yell "BUGOUT, BUGOUT, BUGOUT", and you 'bugout'.

That's the difference.

[Symbolic]

withdrawn

Edited November 25, 2012 by Symbolic

[atlas3025]

Jwolf, I think you were wise for practicing. You at least learned about your kit, and you were thinking about it.

As for the whole land ownership part, I have a lot of land back in the hills, I mean seriously, but I don't live there. If the SHTF, I doubt my land deed will mean #### to whatever band of looters rolls up, and if can't get there first and set up defenses, then I don't think it can do me a lot of good. For that matter, even if I already had it set up with a cabin, machine gun nest, trip wires, etc...it would already be game for thieving even NOW when the #### is safely in tact. If I can't live there with it, I can't protect it from theft.

My point is, even if you owned land now, and prepped it and practiced on it...if you didn't live on it in the good times, it probably won't do you any good in the bad times. You'll likely need a small army and some gumption to get it back from the people that beat you to it. At that point, all the deed means is that you can at least feel good about killing to take back what is yours. But in reality, it won't be any different than taking land that belongs to someone else.

I hope I'm wrong...but I fear there will be only wolves and sheep..no sheepdogs.

[Moped]

JWolf, for along term Bugout, you might want to get with a group of people you know and trust. What would be good is to find someone that would be willing to let you Bug Out to their place, where a group could set up. It's going to be difficult for one or two people or really even four or five to hold on to a stronghold for any length of time. People have to sleep sometime and that's when the bad folk will show up. Really, I think a good number would be 10 or so people. But that takes a lot of planning, to pull off and a lot of money up front. But with the right attitude and leadership it could be pulled off.

[Guest nysos]

I plan on showing up at Gordon's house and hope my devilishly good looks and charm get me in. If not, then hopefully he will take pity on me and not shoot me to take my supplies and guns.

[Guest Shep Stoner308]

Knowing local topography is key. Study your surroundings from the standpoint the obvious being roads, railroad, etc. Then know the local streams, lakes, ponds. Elevation changes. All of these should be second nature to you in your primary current location at this time. Some positions near roads that seem ideal because of their view of surrounding territory are also a liability in that others can see your location as well. This type of location is a good location in some ways if you have the ability to defend it with numbers and fire power, BUT no place should be considered your permanent stronghold that is this is your situation. Too many unknown events may make this position too valuable to others that are "professional" in nature.

I like to look at the old castles in Europe, and I love the architecture. But every stronghold is flawed no matter how good the defensive positions are if you chose to defend it. These positions are static in nature, and by defending them you immediately will likely lose the initiative after you stop the first attack anyway. Then others will know of your defense and the word will spread pretty fast to the bad guys that you have something that you are defending with a lot of firepower and so your place becomes an objective to take for the more organized groups that typically wear uniforms for example. You can get surrounded and basically become a prisoner until your place is reduced by time or siege. I currently face this situation myself at my location. As much as I love it for its command of the surrounding territory, its location could only be held properly by a force of at least heavy squad sized with other support members. I have safe underground basement housing for that many folks, but gathering those of a like mind to do so also would expose me to additional risks that I am currently hesitant to pursue.

In the future I will build up a existing safe location with supplies and goods for a primary backup site, I have currently one person that lives on the property that is working with me that owns several other locations nearby that will be very suitable.

I often ask myself this question at times tho, all of these preparations at times seem to be somewhat crazy. But ultimately they do provide me an additional level of comfort that I can achieve in no other way.