Handguns and Hunting - 2011 TN Regs

[hornett22]

No need to apologize ! Heck, I can't make sense of most of the reg guide, which is why I posted on this. Not only that, TWRA will quickly tell you that the reg guide is not the final word. Sometimes, the devil is in the details.....

You want confusing? Check out the Connecticut hunting regs! They gave me a headache trying to figure them out. Luckily I knew a DEP agent and he would clarify things for me. Usually he thought they were assinine too.

Michigan was always pretty good actually. I haven't read it in a while. May have changed. Michigan DNR officers were usually pretty cool and understanding and willing to help.

[DaveS]

Post Removed by User...

Edited September 12, 2011 by wd-40

[DaveS]

R_BERT...you have my appologies....

[ShaunM]

Glad to see everyone is playing nice. I was hoping everyone was when I got home from church.

[Jonnin]

Unfortunately, there is no easy way to apply field enforcement of muzzle energy. The enforcement officers are typically degreed in biology, forestery, fisheries, etc. and sometimes criminal justice and law enforcement, not engineering, or physics. Not only would barrell measurements have to be made, loading, and bullet weight, and ballistic coeficient would also be a factor. Even using a iPad app, it would take 15-20 minutes to even marginally verify compliance with muzzle energy in the field. Enforcement on the basis of ballistics would be even more of a nightmare than a four inch limit, not to mention the fact that a .22 Long Rifle can develop over 100 ft-lbs of muzzle energy.No, I think it boils down to a matter of instilling ethics and personal accountability, and there unfortunately will always be yahoos. B.

Its going to require firing one round to enforce it. I do not know if they want to go there. With one round, either a pass/fail target (some sort of knockdown target that takes X amount of force to knock over can be made and hauled around by the officer) or a chronograph, bullet puller, scale, and app can do it (get the velocity and bullet weight, that is sufficient). The rest of the data you ask for is not needed for energy calculation. Due to reloaded ammo, it is not possible to do it without firing a round as there is no way to verify the powder in use.

[Guest GunTroll]

Maybe...

Probably just easier have a caliber/cartridge restriction that should work for everyone, TWRA & hunters. As R_Bert suggested its not the job of a warden to understand ballistics. He should just simple ask...hey guy what you packing? And be done with it. Without looking into energy tables I would say a .357 coming out of a 2" barrel would be way better than a 9mm coming out of a 4.75(or whatever it is) XD? Just make a caliber and above the standard and be done with it. Can't make everyone happy. Those two calibers and cartridges were just examples and not my recommendations.

I think we have allowed lawyers to have too much sway in our lives. By that I mean if something is not dotted or a "t" is crossed its up to interpretation by many parties involved. WE want to know exactly what something means/says. Common sense has been replaced with an "instruction manual" for everyday decisions and actions. Our regs one day will look like the Obama health care bill 2,000+ pages of legal ease.

Not sure if I articulated that well enough but thats how I feel about it.

Edited September 14, 2011 by GunTroll

[R_Bert]

R_BERT...you have my appologies....

unnecessary, but thanks.

You have some really good opinions, and I find you to be one of the more interesting posters on the forum (although I am baffled at your take on turkey:dropjaw: ).

I think we (and all of us, even) agree on far more than we disagree. I will try to focus on that when things start getting dicey.

Warmest,

Bert

[DaveS]

I hate Turkeys because they mess up my Deer Hunting, scare the crap out of me while I'm hunting and most of all, I have planted 2 1 acre food plots (for DEER) and the turkeys have dug it up twice. I have replanted them 3 times due to them "dirt scratchers". I don't think they are very good to eat. When it comes to turkeys....It's gotten personal! The food plots were put in for deer, quail and dove. No where did I say Turkeys!

[JAB]

I wish they had changed this reg a couple of years ago. When I bought my Taurus 66 (late '80s model that looked nearly brand new) I was also looking at a Ruger Security Six. The SS was only a few bucks more than the Taurus and I really wanted the Ruger. Since there was the possibility I'd want to use it for backup when hunting (as if I'll ever get to take a shot with my rifle, much less a backup handgun), I wanted to make sure of the barrel length. Both were supposed to be four inches but the Ruger measured out to just under four inches while the Taurus measured out to a true four inches. I have had zero problems with the Taurus and really like the trigger pull and the adjustable rear sights but still would have probably gone with the Ruger if the four inch barrel for hunting weren't a concern.

Honestly, as some others have mentioned, the four inch barrel thing has never made much sense to me. To be truthful, though, the 'muzzle energy' argument doesn't make a lot of sense, either. After all, how much energy does the average arrow fired from a compound bow - which is legal hunting gear - produce? I honestly don't know the answer to that question but can't imagine it is anywhere near the energy produced by a 158 grain LSP fired from a snubnosed .357. Heck, a snubnosed .38 Special likely produces more energy than a bow and arrow. I am not necessarily saying a snubnosed .38 or .357 is appropriate for deer hunting, just that muzzle energy requirements make no sense when hunting with a bow and arrow is an acceptable method unless the minimum muzzle energy requirement were set at the energy level a common hunting bow is capable of delivering. From what I can find the theoretical max a hunting bow can deliver is about the same as the muzzle energy of a .22LR ( Compound Bow Tech Review: Creation of the first 400+ fps Super Bow )

To me, then, caliber restrictions would seem to make the most sense and be the easiest to understand. Of course, how would that be enforced being that it is legal to carry a handgun for self defense while hunting as long as the individual has an HCP? In other words, with an HCP it would still be legal to carry a .32acp pocket pistol while hunting (as long as the hunter has appropriate hunting gear with him/her) so simply asking, "What are you packing," wouldn't work.

Edited September 14, 2011 by JAB

[jimic]

There are to many deer,population is out of control. TWRA does not care how you kill a deer......just kill them.

When TWRA were sell the extra deer permitts they should have been giving them away.

[Guest GunTroll]

I hate TN deer.

Edited September 14, 2011 by GunTroll

[JAB]

There are to many deer,population is out of control. TWRA does not care how you kill a deer......just kill them.

When TWRA were sell the extra deer permitts they should have been giving them away.

Looking at this years seasons/regs, it appears that may be the case in unit L. The regs for those of us living in Units A and B, however, indicate an entirely different story.

[Guest GunTroll]

Not being an archery hunter this opinion may have no facts at all...

Energy doesn't kill deer when using arrows. Its the location of the hit. Size of the entrance hole (which is why I would guess field point arrows aren't used????) and exit if it makes it that far...guess thats were energy comes in. And bleeding to death.

So even if the energy is the same as a 22 LR....a 22 LR would make a considerably smaller entrance hole...and perhaps an exit if the bullet travels that far through the deer and holds together.

KISS applies to this scenario. Make a caliber/cartridge the standard and be done with it. Barrel length is dumb. All the warden would have to do is ask..."what are you packing...to kill deer with?" and then he can be off on his way. No ballistic tables, tape measure, chronograph, or any other item is needed. K I S S!!!!

[JAB]

Not being an archery hunter this opinion may have no facts at all...

Energy doesn't kill deer when using arrows. Its the location of the hit. Size of the entrance hole (which is why I would guess field point arrows aren't used????) and exit if it makes it that far...guess thats were energy comes in. And bleeding to death.

So even if the energy is the same as a 22 LR....a 22 LR would make a considerably smaller entrance hole...and perhaps an exit if the bullet travels that far through the deer and holds together.

KISS applies to this scenario. Make a caliber/cartridge the standard and be done with it. Barrel length is dumb. All the warden would have to do is ask..."what are you packing...to kill deer with?" and then he can be off on his way. No ballistic tables, tape measure, chronograph, or any other item is needed. K I S S!!!!

I think we are thinking along the same lines. I wasn't saying that a .22LR is a good deer cartridge because it delivers roughly the same energy as a compound bow. Instead, I was saying that since a bow and arrow will get the job done, even with low energy, muzzle energy doesn't make sense as the sole or even main criteria for a handgun to be legal for hunting.

Edited September 14, 2011 by JAB

[roverboy]

I'll admit it does get a little confusing with handgun hunting laws. Some states want you to use 4" minimum barrels and such. Ky., years ago wanted a 4" minimum bl. and 500 foot pounds muzzle energy. that probably don't apply in Ky. now because thet will let you use any centerfire. Its best to get a handgun in a good cal. and at least 6" barrel.

[DaveS]

Not being an archery hunter this opinion may have no facts at all...

Energy doesn't kill deer when using arrows. Its the location of the hit. Size of the entrance hole (which is why I would guess field point arrows aren't used????) and exit if it makes it that far...guess thats were energy comes in. And bleeding to death.

So even if the energy is the same as a 22 LR....a 22 LR would make a considerably smaller entrance hole...and perhaps an exit if the bullet travels that far through the deer and holds together.

KISS applies to this scenario. Make a caliber/cartridge the standard and be done with it. Barrel length is dumb. All the warden would have to do is ask..."what are you packing...to kill deer with?" and then he can be off on his way. No ballistic tables, tape measure, chronograph, or any other item is needed. K I S S!!!!

Arrows kill by hemorage, bullets kill by shock.....And a "True Bubba" jumps on the deer's back and stabs it to death. Which is also a type of hemorage.

[DaveS]

There are to many deer,population is out of control. TWRA does not care how you kill a deer......just kill them.

When TWRA were sell the extra deer permitts they should have been giving them away.

Tennessee DOES CARE how you kill deer. Why do you think there are so many regs on deer hunting? One the the most BEST and EFFECTIVE ways of killing a deer very quicky, is with the use of Triple 0 Buck and Double 0 buck shot. Drops a deer almost instantly. Why can't we use it here? Rules.....would be my guess!

[Guest GunTroll]

"Jumps on it back"! I'll pass on that. Sounds like something Whiskey would try though. With his lower center of gravity and all....

[JAB]

Arrows kill by hemorage, bullets kill by shock.....And a "True Bubba" jumps on the deer's back and stabs it to death. Which is also a type of hemorage.

I don't know about that. I do have a cousin who lives down around the Georgia/Alabama line who apparently hunts hogs with only a big knife (using dogs to bring the hog to ground, of course.) I can only aspire to the level of 'Bubbaocity' that most of my paternal side of the family achieves without even really trying.

I'd just about be willing to try it, though, if it meant actually bagging a deer for a change. My mom says that she liked the name Jonathan (my first name) when she first heard of Jonathan Winters. I'm beginning to suspect, however, that it is actually an old Native American word for 'can't hunt worth a crap.'

Hey, that is part of the reason that the idea of handgun hunting appeals to me in the first place. If I'm not going to shoot a deer, anyhow, at least a handgun is generally lighter and easier to carry. Then maybe I could even get away with claiming that I didn't harvest any deer because I hunt with a handgun and that is harder than hunting with a rifle.

One the the most BEST and EFFECTIVE ways of killing a deer very quicky, is with the use of Triple 0 Buck and Double 0 buck shot. Drops a deer almost instantly.

Reckon that's why they call it buckshot?

Edited September 15, 2011 by JAB

[jimic]

Come on over to unit L, there are plent of deer and public land.

[guyandarifle]

I'm late to this party (and apparently missed some good stuff) but I would have thought the easiest thing to do would be energy figures associated with caliber. If the caliber in question is "known" to meet the energy requirements then that's that. Would someone be able to, for instance, handload some .44 Magnum cases with .44 Special loads? Sure, but how many would actually bother to do that? If you're carrying a .44 Mag and your rounds say .44 Mag don't sweat it. There's no point in turning up the heat on everybody on the "chance" that .000001% of them might be fudging their energy figures with watered down loads. Other than that it's as simple as looking over the weapon, verifying the caliber and telling everybody to be safe out there.

As for HCP that could double as a hunting gun I would absolutely use one my 10mm's on deer, though the actual type of bullet used would be different. (I'd go for max penetration rounds for hunting) Still, I've got better handguns for that purpose. In any case, and this is probably self-evident, practice hunting shots with whatever you're going to hunt with. Being confident you can hit a deer in the vitals a 45yds is not the same thing as being happy with your groups at 15yds and assuming you're all set.

[Guest GunTroll]

Who invited that guy ^ with all the clarity and simple to understand common sense?

Very well said Sir!

I think more or less everyone is in agreeance here, or at least the posters anyways.

[gregintenn]

Police yourselves, guys! Don't call for MORE regulation. I think this was a step in the right direction.