Car question

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I've always though it best to hand over the carry permit along with the driver's license, but that's just me. You're probably fine if you don't.

Has anyone seen the video of the police officer pulling his weapon on the woman he stops for speeding? When he sees her gun he draws his, and makes her get out of the car with her hands up all the while keeping his weapon on her. It turns out she has a valid carry permit but she didn't tell him that up front. It is not real-life; it's done with actors. They had us watch it at my permit class at Rangemaster in Memphis last year. It is a terrible, terrible example of how to handle such a situation but I guess they want to scare us into always letting the officer know on the front end. Hmmm. My skepticism goes way up when the fear mongering starts.

Im so sick of that video, and have been lobbying safety to change it since it came out. I have finally, this year, gotten the legislature involved and so I have been told they are working on a new one right now. Probably come out and wont update the Restaurant carry law if it gets passed.

In short they wanted to intimidate the students into believing its the correct thing to do... and thats wrong, the law is the law, but it helps to use a little common sense as well.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

While this is true, that's a problem with the individual officer's attitude, not my obligation to pander to it... there really isn't anything they could do about it except make a false arrest or decide to write me a ticket (which I would likely have deserved anyways), instead of a warning... Having an HCP certainly isn't probably cause to search or detain me, since what they are likely to find is legal in the first place. I personally would have no qualms with vigorously addressing any harassment I might encounter, to its conclusion, through proper channels after the fact.

It's like being pulled over and feeling obligated to volunteer the information that I have a valid fishing license, just because I have a pole in the car. It's simply not required or relevant to the situation, regardless of whether or not the record that I have a fishing license shows up when they call dispatch.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm not going to go through every encounter assuming that I'll be hassled over something which isn't really within the scope of their immediate duties pertaining to me.

Well.. and not being argumentative, just trying to be informative because I have been on both sides of this particular situation. And I'm as Pro Gun as anyone in this world, but most cops aren't. When I pulled a car over, I could care less... as long as it was put away it didnt bother me at all... probably the wrong way to think, but hey I was around guns and gun owners all the time.. so it was no biggy. The other guys were trained to not think that way at all.

Bottom line...the law states you dont have to volunteer the information unless the officer asks, so thats it. Its kinda a common sense approach to go ahead and tell him though. And it may not really be the officers attitude. But he could make the stop very uncomfortable, and not even come close to violating any of your rights. Remember he will start off by giving you "lawful commands"...

If you dont volunteer the fact your carrying a gun out of courtesy he could....

Example:

He could ask for possession of the firearm if he deems that your inconsideration gives him the belief you might be a danger to yourself, him, or the general public. Meaning he can get you out, and place you in handcuffs for "the officers safety" and get it himself. If its in your vehicle he can go through whatever it takes to get to the gun, what if he "smells or sees" something else? You dont need probable cause in that situation.

Once he gets the gun he can run the firearm for a stolen history report, that will take a good bit of time, and you could still be in cuffs while all of this is going on btw... Better obey all his "lawful commands"... dont even think about getting agitated, arguing or disobeying one. Lots can go wrong for you at that point.

Then once he determines you are who you say you are... the guns not hot... you have a valid permit...btw..better hope NCIC/TCIC are up and running so he can find this stuff out... and he finishes writing ALL the tickets for violations that he can articulate that you commited... then he will probably lock your firearm in the trunk and tell you" Have a safe day sir"... And you will be on your way. Tickets and all...

Now can you go down and file a complaint against the officer, sure... but what did he do wrong? He can use the term "officer safety" and explain all of his actions.

Now all this is if you get the wrong jackazz on the wrong day, and you dont tell him so he will feel comfortable on the traffic stop.

Now dont take what I said above to believe I'm not considerate of citizens individual rights... Im all for them, and protecting them. But you have to use common sense in some situations. I know for a fact what happens when you push the wrong buttons with an overzealous gungho cop! Some of them can be down right nasty.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I saw that Rangemaster video, too. Impressive, but both parties were problems in that interchange-- a clueless airhead driver with a gun, an uptight LEO- a dangerous combo.

I haven't been stopped for a traffic violation while carrying yet. But, I did get rear ended while carrying. I decided to put my weapon under the driver's seat while we were waiting for the cop to come write up the report, etc.

Didn't tell anyone it was there, and no one asked. All went well.

another thing that got me about that video... the officer hadnt made contact with the driver yet... he just saw a "buldge".. what if she had been another COP????

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

We must've seen different videos then. In the one I saw, the cop saw her gun when she leaned over to get her license.

[molonlabetn]

Well.. and not being argumentative, just trying to be informative because I have been on both sides of this particular situation. And I'm as Pro Gun as anyone in this world, but most cops aren't. When I pulled a car over, I could care less... as long as it was put away it didnt bother me at all... probably the wrong way to think, but hey I was around guns and gun owners all the time.. so it was no biggy. The other guys were trained to not think that way at all.

Bottom line...the law states you dont have to volunteer the information unless the officer asks, so thats it. Its kinda a common sense approach to go ahead and tell him though. And it may not really be the officers attitude. But he could make the stop very uncomfortable, and not even come close to violating any of your rights. Remember he will start off by giving you "lawful commands"...

If you dont volunteer the fact your carrying a gun out of courtesy he could....

Example:

He could ask for possession of the firearm if he deems that your inconsideration gives him the belief you might be a danger to yourself, him, or the general public. Meaning he can get you out, and place you in handcuffs for "the officers safety" and get it himself. If its in your vehicle he can go through whatever it takes to get to the gun, what if he "smells or sees" something else? You dont need probable cause in that situation.

Once he gets the gun he can run the firearm for a stolen history report, that will take a good bit of time, and you could still be in cuffs while all of this is going on btw... Better obey all his "lawful commands"... dont even think about getting agitated, arguing or disobeying one. Lots can go wrong for you at that point.

Then once he determines you are who you say you are... the guns not hot... you have a valid permit...btw..better hope NCIC/TCIC are up and running so he can find this stuff out... and he finishes writing ALL the tickets for violations that he can articulate that you commited... then he will probably lock your firearm in the trunk and tell you" Have a safe day sir"... And you will be on your way. Tickets and all...

Now can you go down and file a complaint against the officer, sure... but what did he do wrong? He can use the term "officer safety" and explain all of his actions.

Now all this is if you get the wrong jackazz on the wrong day, and you dont tell him so he will feel comfortable on the traffic stop.

Now dont take what I said above to believe I'm not considerate of citizens individual rights... Im all for them, and protecting them. But you have to use common sense in some situations. I know for a fact what happens when you push the wrong buttons with an overzealous gungho cop! Some of them can be down right nasty.

All of those things could just as easily happen to me if I disclose beforehand as opposed to being asked, if the cop is predisposed to distrusting armed citizens.

"lawful commands" Are not law unto themselves... It is simply illegal to use force to resist them, but not illegal to simply ignore them or refuse.

S T A T E O F T E N N E S S E E

OFFICE OF THE

ATTORNEY GENERAL

425 FIFTH AVENUE NORTH

NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE 37243

September 26, 2000

Opinion No. 00-147

Lawful Commands of Police

QUESTION

Whether an individual who intentionally but passively refuses to obey a law enforcement officer’s

reasonable, lawful command commits an offense under Tennessee law?

OPINION

No, an individual who intentionally but passively refuses to obey a law enforcement officer’s

reasonable, lawful command does not commit an offense under Tennessee law because force is a necessary

element of resisting arrest.

...

cont'd: http://www.attorneygeneral.state.tn.us/op/2000/OP/OP147.pdf

I realize that it would be a matter for the courts to decide, at that point... but if it's an a$$hole cop just trying to push his own agenda or abuse his authority, I intend to use all of my resources to ensure that was a costly mistake on their part... and it would be, in light of the precedents set by other cases.

In either case, I've yet to meet a police officer who didn't perform thier job courteously... though I must admit that I don't tend to have much interaction with them, since I live pretty safely (I've been pulled over twice since I got my permit nearly 6 years ago, and in both cases it was a simple hello how are you... didn't even bother to ID me, just told me to fix my headlight, and the other was a radar-gun malfunction which he was aware of shortly after hitting the lights, so he waved me on after that short explanation)

Edited March 13, 2008 by molonlabetn

[creeky]

When pulled over I hand them my Permit with my license and have not had a problem.

In the past I have been pulled over without a permit and handgun and been treated harshly.

When I complained to my GrandDad (Retired Cop), and my Step Dad (Retired Cop) they both said the same thing... "There's bad apples in every profession." Doesn't make it right... doesn't make it wrong... makes it what it is.. the reality of life.

For me, I'm just can't see a problem with handing over my Permit.

But that is just me.

[Fallguy]

Well.. and not being argumentative, just trying to be informative because I have been on both sides of this particular situation. And I'm as Pro Gun as anyone in this world, but most cops aren't. When I pulled a car over, I could care less... as long as it was put away it didnt bother me at all... probably the wrong way to think, but hey I was around guns and gun owners all the time.. so it was no biggy. The other guys were trained to not think that way at all.

Bottom line...the law states you dont have to volunteer the information unless the officer asks, so thats it. Its kinda a common sense approach to go ahead and tell him though. And it may not really be the officers attitude. But he could make the stop very uncomfortable, and not even come close to violating any of your rights. Remember he will start off by giving you "lawful commands"...

If you dont volunteer the fact your carrying a gun out of courtesy he could....

Example:

He could ask for possession of the firearm if he deems that your inconsideration gives him the belief you might be a danger to yourself, him, or the general public. Meaning he can get you out, and place you in handcuffs for "the officers safety" and get it himself. If its in your vehicle he can go through whatever it takes to get to the gun, what if he "smells or sees" something else? You dont need probable cause in that situation.

Once he gets the gun he can run the firearm for a stolen history report, that will take a good bit of time, and you could still be in cuffs while all of this is going on btw... Better obey all his "lawful commands"... dont even think about getting agitated, arguing or disobeying one. Lots can go wrong for you at that point.

Then once he determines you are who you say you are... the guns not hot... you have a valid permit...btw..better hope NCIC/TCIC are up and running so he can find this stuff out... and he finishes writing ALL the tickets for violations that he can articulate that you commited... then he will probably lock your firearm in the trunk and tell you" Have a safe day sir"... And you will be on your way. Tickets and all...

Now can you go down and file a complaint against the officer, sure... but what did he do wrong? He can use the term "officer safety" and explain all of his actions.

Now all this is if you get the wrong jackazz on the wrong day, and you dont tell him so he will feel comfortable on the traffic stop.

Now dont take what I said above to believe I'm not considerate of citizens individual rights... Im all for them, and protecting them. But you have to use common sense in some situations. I know for a fact what happens when you push the wrong buttons with an overzealous gungho cop! Some of them can be down right nasty.

.....and the video is supposed to be intemidating about what the law is?

I "hope" cops have become more educated over the years about citizens with HCP's. Although some have probably not....(I do remember the guy at the Knoxville Wal-Mart)

You are right about the dispatcher thing...I dispatched for many years. Normally I wouldn't run a DL until the officer asked, but you're right in that you can take the name from the license plate registration and find the DL. However....just because someone has a HCP doesn't mean they are armed at that time. As I've said in other threads, it has only been in the last year or so that I have carried pretty much 24/7. Anytime before that I still had my HCP but was not armed. If I was stopped should have told a LEO that I have a HCP but I am "unarmed"? Again to me it seems making an issue of something that is a non-issue.

[cadillacdude1975]

i have debated this topic with several people on other forums and i get to have a go at it here it appears. a female cop put it this way, which made very good sense.

its 2am, you had to work late, your driving down a dark, poorly lit road on your way to your house. you slip up, its late, and you do a rolling stop on a stop sign, just trying to get home. next thing you know, blue lights and sirens. bam your caught.

you are legal, you have all the ID cards, DL HCP, registration, gun is concealed on your person, you have insurance, blah blah you get the point. the officer walks up, you roll the window down and do the usual song and dance of why you were stopped and all that jazz.

with it being so late, the police officer asks you to step out of the car into the lights of the police cruiser for better visibility for you both, and while you get out of your car, you turn to close your door and you expose your handgun as your shirt has ridden up. you FAILED to notify the officer that you were a legal HCP holder. where is this situation headed next? do you think your going to get a hug and a kiss and be on your way?

by not showing the permit or mentioning you have one, you already failed right there. you are not going to have a nice day eating pavement while trying to scream your legal your permit is in your wallet while your ass is getting thrashed on the pavement at 2am.

see my point? even the most innocent, and correct law abiding decision has gotten you in alot of hot water. go back 45 seconds, when the officer approached the vehicle and made verbal contact, and i have done this several times, i have my DL and HCP ready, HCP on top and i reply good evening officer, i am legally armed and my permit is on top. the next question is usually where is the weapon, sometimes they will ask you to hand it to them, or even have you exit the vehicle so they can get it off you. depends on the officer. i have had mine taken and set on the roof during the stop, and i had one tell me leave it where it is (4 oclock) and we will both be on our ways here shortly.

tell them your a valid permit holder and you are carrying a sidearm for gods sake. its alot easier.

Edited March 13, 2008 by cadillacdude1975

[GLOCKMEISTER]

All of those things could just as easily happen to me if I disclose beforehand as opposed to being asked, if the cop is predisposed to distrusting armed citizens.

"lawful commands" Are not law unto themselves... It is simply illegal to use force to resist them, but not illegal to simply ignore them or refuse.

I realize that it would be a matter for the courts to decide, at that point... but if it's an a$ cop just trying to push his own agenda or abuse his authority, I intend to use all of my resources to ensure that was a costly mistake on their part... and it would be, in light of the precedents set by other cases.

In either case, I've yet to meet a police officer who didn't perform thier job courteously... though I must admit that I don't tend to have much interaction with them, since I live pretty safely (I've been pulled over twice since I got my permit nearly 6 years ago, and in both cases it was a simple hello how are you... didn't even bother to ID me, just told me to fix my headlight, and the other was a radar-gun malfunction which he was aware of shortly after hitting the lights, so he waved me on after that short explanation)

HEHEHE.... So now were back to using AG's opinions??? Btw if I remember this one was from Summers... not the same AG that gave the recent opinion we disagree with about 1311/1359??

Anway... what I said was just a what might could happen scenario. Sure you can get a good or bad apple with any group of people any day, thats life.

I guess where we can agree to disagree is... I dont see the problem telling the men and women that protect us daily that your carrying, by the time they approach the car they will probably already know... its just a courtesy thats all.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

.....and the video is supposed to be intemidating about what the law is?

I "hope" cops have become more educated over the years about citizens with HCP's. Although some have probably not....(I do remember the guy at the Knoxville Wal-Mart)

You are right about the dispatcher thing...I dispatched for many years. Normally I wouldn't run a DL until the officer asked, but you're right in that you can take the name from the license plate registration and find the DL. However....just because someone has a HCP doesn't mean they are armed at that time. As I've said in other threads, it has only been in the last year or so that I have carried pretty much 24/7. Anytime before that I still had my HCP but was not armed. If I was stopped should have told a LEO that I have a HCP but I am "unarmed"? Again to me it seems making an issue of something that is a non-issue.

btw.. about Cops being trained better on handgun permit law, nope they aren't. Back several years ago I was the training coordinator at a local Dept. We had traing tapes sent to us thru POST via UT Knoxville called LESAT, so officers could get the required in service classes in each year. On those tapes, back then, they had one about handgun permit holders... allot of bad/misinformation was in those tapes. Things like "handgun has to be concealed".. "cant carry in Bank"... lots of stuff that was just WRONG. In any event it took some hell raising, but I finally got that tape pulled from POST training, but the damage was already done.

Another little tidbit most of you should know, lots of police survival instructors tell officers to look for "gun" indicators... and to handle those persons that dont tell officers they are legally carrying 1-2 threat levels above what they would consider green.

Say when an officer ordinarily approaches a car he always puts his hand on his gun, but doesnt unsnap.... if he sees say an NRA sticker on a vehicle he may touch the rear qu, put his hand on gun, unsnap and be in the "ready to draw" position... that officer is going to handle that stop more aggressively then others due to the training he has received.

Just a little tidbit...

[GLOCKMEISTER]

i have debated this topic with several people on other forums and i get to have a go at it here it appears. a female cop put it this way, which made very good sense.

its 2am, you had to work late, your driving down a dark, poorly lit road on your way to your house. you slip up, its late, and you do a rolling stop on a stop sign, just trying to get home. next thing you know, blue lights and sirens. bam your caught.

you are legal, you have all the ID cards, DL HCP, registration, gun is concealed on your person, you have insurance, blah blah you get the point. the officer walks up, you roll the window down and do the usual song and dance of why you were stopped and all that jazz.

with it being so late, the police officer asks you to step out of the car into the lights of the police cruiser for better visibility for you both, and while you get out of your car, you turn to close your door and you expose your handgun as your shirt has ridden up. you FAILED to notify the officer that you were a legal HCP holder. where is this situation headed next? do you think your going to get a hug and a kiss and be on your way?

by not showing the permit or mentioning you have one, you already failed right there. you are not going to have a nice day eating pavement while trying to scream your legal your permit is in your wallet while your ass is getting thrashed on the pavement at 2am.

see my point? even the most innocent, and correct law abiding decision has gotten you in alot of hot water. go back 45 seconds, when the officer approached the vehicle and made verbal contact, and i have done this several times, i have my DL and HCP ready, HCP on top and i reply good evening officer, i am legally armed and my permit is on top. the next question is usually where is the weapon, sometimes they will ask you to hand it to them, or even have you exit the vehicle so they can get it off you. depends on the officer. i have had mine taken and set on the roof during the stop, and i had one tell me leave it where it is (4 oclock) and we will both be on our ways here shortly.

tell them your a valid permit holder and you are carrying a sidearm for gods sake. its alot easier.

good points...

Actually I tell all my students to hide either in the ash tray or the visor a duplicate copy of their HCP, Vehicle registration, and proof of ins.... with their left hand, while the right one is on the steering wheel, hand that info out to the officer voluntarily letting him know... you have a gun permit(meaning your not a felon)... you have Ins(meaning your responsible and law abiding)... and you have your vehicle registration ready(its not in the glove box under your Glock)...

Thats the smart way for a citizen to handle a traffic stop. It makes life easier for everyone. Until you have been in that situation at 2am you dont know what its like to be 20+ miles out in the middle of nowhere, 5-7 minutes away from backup dealing with an unknown person thats carrying a gun. Does it matter to the officer at that point if its legal or not???? Most are telling themselves if they dont handle this right they may not got home tonight... ya know?

[molonlabetn]

I appreciate your point of view, since you have seen both sides of the fence, but I think the real issue here is the simple fact that there is no justification for a police officer to manhandle a person based on simple possession of a firearm, which, once the permit is finally asked for, was totally legit to begin with. The burden is upon them to ask for the permit. If the fellow is acting erratically/threateningly, sure... or if they match the description of a known criminal, sure... But what we're talking about is akin to pulling over every vehicle on the road to run the VIN and DL of the driver just in case they might not be legal, when there is no other indication that they are not. Or, perchance the opposite occurs and an officer who sees you carrying a gun walking down the street stops you to verify that you have a permit, and if they happen to see you have car-keys decide to run your DL and give you a breathalyser in the off-chance that you might be about to drive drunk or without a license. In essence, what is being suggested is that we should give credibility to the idea that the general populace is unfit to be armed until proven otherwise. I won't do that. I am one of the most courteous people you would ever pull over, and that is on-purpose, because I have alot of respect for what that job entails putting up with... but that doesn't mean I am obligated to divulge more of my business than the law requires. If my HCP never comes up during a traffic stop, that's exactly how it should be... if my HCP comes up during an encounter on the street if an officer becomes aware of my firearm, that's what it's intended for. But throwing me on the ground at gun-point before any words were exchanged related to that issue, in either case, would be inexcusable... and would certainly be greater force than necessary, which the law provides recourse for.

So, it's plainly impossible to justify an officer creating an issue over something which is not, simply due to their own biases. I'm not arguing that it does not occur, what I'm stating is that I don't have to go along with it voluntarily.

Edited March 18, 2008 by molonlabetn

[Fallguy]

So, it's plainly impossible to justify an officer creating an issue over something which is not, simply due to their own biases. I'm not arguing that it does not occur, what I'm stating is that I don't have to go along with it voluntarily.

I agree!!

EDIT: I will add that if I was asked to step out or any other action which may reveal I am armed, I would probably tell the officer first instead of letting them find out. But simply pulled over, asked for DL, given a ticket or not...or at a roadblock....don't see the need.

Edited March 14, 2008 by Fallguy

[Guest 2HOW]

If you come thru here have the pistol on your person , not anywhere else, unless its unloaded and the ammo is separate from the gun. says the THP and the local cops.

[Guest 2HOW]

[actually I am usually by myself when in the car and I keep my gun under my right leg, maybe that sounds crazy to some but it is the best place for me to "hide" it and have quick access to it if needed. ] QUOTE So what happens to the weapon when you're are in a wreck or have to jump out the car ,or any number of things? You grab the gun and now you are brandishing and some idiot shoots you? It may be better to find a good holster:shake:

[Fallguy]

If you come thru here have the pistol on your person , not anywhere else, unless its unloaded and the ammo is separate from the gun. says the THP and the local cops.

What if they told you not to wear shorts and only yellow shirts at the same time?

[jughead]

If you come thru here have the pistol on your person , not anywhere else, unless its unloaded and the ammo is separate from the gun. says the THP and the local cops.

one would have to fight it and would win but they are dead wrong

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

If you come thru here have the pistol on your person , not anywhere else, unless its unloaded and the ammo is separate from the gun. says the THP and the local cops.

Then those people are uneducated morons that deserve the lawsuit their actions would surely bring on.

Even though I think it's a horrible idea to have a gun laying somwhere in a vehicle, there is no law that states it can't be carried that way, if you have a permit to carry.

[robin48]

Then those people are uneducated morons that deserve the lawsuit their actions would surely bring on.

Even though I think it's a horrible idea to have a gun laying somwhere in a vehicle, there is no law that states it can't be carried that way, if you have a permit to carry.

Spoken like a true Tipton Countian

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

We should meet up at Brighton Arms sometime. I usually go shoot at least once on the weekends. Typically on Friday night or Saturday morning (before their permit class students take over the range).

[robin48]

We should meet up at Brighton Arms sometime. I usually go shoot at least once on the weekends. Typically on Friday night or Saturday morning (before their permit class students take over the range).

I work there part time in the gunsmith shop. I won't be working again until Tuesday after lunch because unfortunately I have to work nights at my fulltime job Sat Sun and Monday nights. My wife and kids have gotten used to eating every day. I have spoiled them. What time you going to be there Saturday?

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

Me and my mother-in-law will probably be there by 9:30 in the AM.

[robin48]

Me and my mother-in-law will probably be there by 9:30 in the AM.

I will try to be there then and I will try to bring my wife. I want her to meet more women who shoot. She doesn't like guns of any kind. To her credit though she doesn't begrudge me my love of them. She is great.

[Guest TNDixieGirl]

I'll send you a private message so we don't keep this thread hijacked.

[Ricochet]

There are a thousand "what ifs" in life and I don't think it is going to matter if a gun is hidden under the seat or under my leg, if an accident happens then the outcome is by chance one way or the other. I've driven since I was 16 and now I am 49 years old and have never had an accident yet that would throw a pistol out of my car, doesn't mean it won't happen next week or a year from now but I cannot live my life by "what ifs" or I would have been frozen by fear many years ago. I do what I can to live my life and keep myself and my family safe and as I get older I get wiser and more appreciative of life and how precious it is.

If I am in my car alone and I have to try to reach for my gun under the seat or glove box etc it may not be enough time to protect myself. I'm not saying that my pistol under my leg is the best way but it is a way that gives me the opportunity to have access to my firearm if I need it. It's not there all the time, but I won't carry it in my purse and I can't have it in my ribs while driving. So I do the best I can under the circumstance for ME. Everyone has to work that out for themselves.

When someone makes a perfect concealment holster for a woman with immediate access THEN I'll be listening.