Women in training

[Guest Shay VanVlymen]

Why don't more women take firearms or defense training?

I've asked my wife these questions and she had some good input but I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.

[Guest DeeZee]

I relayed your question to my wife Shay, and her reply was "We're just not that in to it". My wife has her HCP and if shes awake shes carrying, she even hits the range with me a few times a month. But when I start in on any defensive training talk for her, she will give me the look .

I guess you can equate training schools and the different fighting pistol/rifle classes with higher education, and I think you'll agree higher education in any field is daunting to many people. I believe the more the General population becomes comfortable with carrying, the more and more women you'll see training with firearms. But then again..........whats the ratio of men > woman hunters???? Is it the same thing? Not really, but kind of the same genre.

[saintsfanbrian]

My wife thinks that most of the training classes that she has seen is just a bunch of big kids rolling around in the dirt and playing cops and robbers only with real guns.

As for formal training for her? Not gonna happen.

[molonlabetn]

I suppose that it has something to do with the predominance of men to view firearms as a hobby, as well as a viable means of defense. Some women do, just not in great numbers... Since, most women would primarily seek gun ownership only when they feel a real need to be able to defend themselves. On the other hand, men tend to be drawn by the 'cool factor' of firearms, and the predominantly masculine past-time of hunting, along with the awareness of their utility in terms of self-defense. By nature, men tend to be more willing to stand up and fight, with violence...

These are all generalities, which are certainly not true in all cases, but the overall effect is obviously what you noted... More often than not, women only own guns when there is obvious necessity. This results in lower awareness, and less of an active desire to put themselves in what they see as a 'violent' mindset, through involvement in practice and training. And, the ones who do participate in firearms training and ownership tend not to be as open about it (i.e. talking about it on the internet).

[Guest Archimedes]

My GF is an ex-kickboxer, physical trainer, and I think she has a purple belt in karate.

She's all about training, but we both agree it's just not in our budget right now.

Besides that, if I'm going to pay that kind of $$$, I'm gonna make sure I get what I pay for.

~Archi

[Donnie]

My wife will occasionally shoot with me, but it's really only once or twice a year. She doesn't think that training will do anything for her, but I've tried to put it into her head that you fall back on what you practice in stressfull situations. I might get through to her someday, even just to shoot more with me and our son.

[Guest Len]

Shay, thanks for starting this thread! This is an important issue that needs to be addressed.

Here's a link to a story in today's Tennessean (Nashville's daily) that might shed some light on this conversation: http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070307/NEWS01/703070434

Also, some comments I made in this thread http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465

might be useful here.

In a nutshell, there are various barriers to entry for women (and newbies of all genders) into the shooting sports, firearms training, and the industry as a whole. Eliminate the barriers, and I think you will see more women and new folks in general come aboard. We need to take a more customer-service orientation throughout the industry. For people with little or no knowledge, the barriers to entry are very hard to overcome. Walk into a typical "pawn & gun" shop and see what I mean. One place near where I live comes to mind: a combo pawn/gun/school/range place that looks unsafe to enter, much less uninviting to enter. Walk in the door and get ignored, pass by the less-than-reputable types pawning their jewelry, see the counter that has not been cleaned in probably decades, see the various quasi-military & mall ninja posters from the '80's, dont even go near the restroom for fear of being overcome by the smell, and the range looks like the basement of a burned out building. I know all places are not like this, but enough are to do harm to the industry as a whole.

We can not continue to shoot ourselves in the foot and wonder why participation in the shooting sports is in decline and why more new people, women and other under-represented groups are not coming aboard, getting trained, buying our products/gear, and enjoying/promoting the 2A rights so many have given their lives in support of.

Sorry for the rant. I feel passionately about this issue and felt the need to vent.

-Len

[Marswolf]

My wife is a shooter, as well as having a four year LE related degree. She shot on a high school rifle team way back when. She is often the one who suggests going to the range.

But when we get there, she sometimes sees guys trying to act like Cowboy Joe with quick draws and stuff. She thinks it looks stupid. About 90% of the time I agree with her. Some pot-bellied smart-ass trying to look like he's important and competent just looks like a fool. Often you just know that they are technically proficient, but couldn't hack it in a real fight. It's just a look they have.

The people who get the respect are the young military people who already know why they are practicing and the old serious guys who are realistic about their limitations and go for accuracy and what they know is important, skipping the flash.

You might get my wife to a class, but it would have to be someone she has talked to teaching it. If he is some fat guy boasting about how great he is, she wouldn't go anywhere around him. Then again, neither would I.

One of the local clubs has frequent women's weekends. Most of the time they use woman instructors and the classes are just for women. No guys "showing" them how to do things. It's been pretty popular.

[Guest jackdog]

I think the best class that you could give a women or a newbie would be one on situation awareness. No shooting no guns just good tactics that can keep you out of trouble. The best defense is avoiding bad situations to begin with.

Another problem I see with the training industry is that it seems to be geared for the waanabees. Those that never have been tested, but want to be Mr. Rambo.

That being said I know there are some fine teachers out there and good schools and that statement is not made to be little anyone in any way. It's just an observation.

[Rifleman]

In this society (and most others) men are expected to the be the hunters, protectors, warriors etc. Women are expected to mothers.

That is no way meant to down play women, on the contrary motherhood (and parenting) is one of the most important jobs that shapes the future of this world.

So I am saying a bit of this reluctance for women to become warriors is prewired either by the Creator or thousands of years of society influence.

My wifes trains to some degree and has a desire to do more. She is signed up for Force on Force now. Having children awakens the "protector" in moms.

Reading "The Gift of Fear" had a big impact on her. I also point out the bad things seen or heard on the news especially when they happen at the places we all go, malls, schools ets. Try to make them realize this stuff comes in to our pretty little worlds.

[Guest jackdog]

Shay please don't take the following comments as negative. I went to your sight after you asked the question. No offense intended, but your sight to me and my wife seems geared for the wannabees. the tactical gear you guys wear in your photos, would seem to be a turn off for most females and a lot of newbies. It seems pretty intimidating to me if you look at it from the prospective of a newbie or a female. Hey just an observation, that I hope will help you in your companies endevors.

Jackdog

[Rifleman]

All of those pictures are what people actually show up with. That is just the way it is. I have been at least one class with SEALS, cops, soldiers a marine, and civilians. Obviously all those people had different gear. So someone who may look like a "wannabe" may be some battle hardened warrior who has killed more people than drunk driving. You never now.

Yes, some people show up to a pistol class with a drop leg rig they will never use. I think they will learn through further training and realize the benefits of actually training with the gear they carry.

There are also civilians who realize they may be preparing for the absolute worst scenario. They are possibly better trained and equipped than most of the military. I salute them, they are doing a patriotic duty and are actually exercising the "bear" part of the Right to Keep and Bear arms.

And yes, some guys are playing games and in it for the hobby, or the sport of collecting training. They are not hurting anyone though.

Here are some pics from the last Fighting Pistol class I was in. Just normal people with regular carry gear. We even had two women!

[Marswolf]

......

[Guest Shay VanVlymen]

Wannabees. Hmmm.

What exactly do they want to be???

[Rifleman]

Wannabees. Hmmm.

What exactly do they want to be???

Good point. If they are people who want to learn to use a carbine to provide defensive cover fire while wearing body armor, communicating, and moving to and from cover, I guess I am a wannabe. Where do I sign up?

[Marswolf]

Good point. If they are people who want to learn to use a carbine to provide defensive cover fire while wearing body armor, communicating, and moving to and from cover, I guess I am a wannabe. Where do I sign up?

I suggest your Army or Marine recruiter.

[Rifleman]

I suggest your Army or Marine recruiter.

I think it is a responsible citizens right and responsibility to learn these skills even if you do not have badge or uniform.

Many provide valuable service to their country and have never worn a uniform. Our military is the greatest fighting force that has ever existed and to them the highest respect is due, but I cannot stand it when people talk about civilians as second class citizens who are "undeserving" to receive the best training or own weapons.

This nations freedom was not won by professional soldiers alone. It was a lot of fathers who put down their plow and picked up a rifle leaving everything else behind.

[Marswolf]

Gee, where to begin.

The "best training" is in the military for this sort of thing. Our guys are actually living (and unfortunately sometimes dieing) with the training they receive. I promise you the people doing the training are deadly serious about getting it right because the people they are training will likely get to use those skills.

I don't know where you expect to use these training skills. Regardless of silly SHTF scenarios, it is highly unlikely that training as you describe will ever be used here except by people in professional positions; and top people in those positions are normally trained by the military and then transition into civilian positions. They are combat proven.

If you just want the training for fun, then more power to you, but don't imagine that you are learning a skill at the level of those who practice for weeks, months or years for a combat event which is actually likely to happen to them.

And the citizen soldiers of today are in the Guard. Rightly or wrongly, farmer citizens do not have access to the equipment it takes to train for a modern war. I or my ancestors have fought in every war in US history except Korea. But we all did it in uniform.

[Guest Ramtough47]

I want to address some of the last comments, but first, what started this thread:WOMEN

I have asked James Yeager,Tom Givens and others the same thing that Shay said in his openning statement:why or what is it that there isn't more women taking classes being offered by people like Givens and Yeager[as well as others]?

Everyone has their ideas[and they may be right],but all i can say is that women are missing it.Every expert will tell you that the BG's out there are looking for the easy prey.Look at the numbers every year on rape or sexual assualt,or how about car jacking[which tend to be more violent],or how about just plain old assualts.Women are heavily involved and they usally come out on the wrong end of things.

I have seen the type of trainning that Yeager and Shay give and i have been to classes which had women in itand belive me you would not want to be that BG that decided to pick on one of them.

I shoot competition alot,both IDPA and USPSA, and i try and take extra time when a lady shows up to welcome her,praise her, and thank her for taking the time to come play with us guys.Every time i have done this the lady will always,always show appreciation and will ask why i am doing this.I always tell them:1st the shooting sports i am involved with could care less whether you are young or old,thin or fat,man or women...the gun can't tell the difference and any one of the types i just mentioned can be as good as HOW MUCH THEY WANT TO BE.2nd[and i look them right in the eye when i tell them this]you are the weaker of the sexes...period,but that gun you have on you "can" make the difference IF you are willing to learn how to use itas well as what you have between your ears.3rd Most women are easier to teach/coach than men are.4th and last Women are better to look at than men,and with some of the guys i shoot with a women would definitely brighting things up.

Concerning some of the latter post about some of the guys and how they gear up and therfore look when they come to these classes,let me say this.Have i purchased gear i didn't really need...yes,but not much.Have i been around guys that are probably overkilling it so-to-speak...yeah,but for the most part most every class i have been to 90% of the members are very serious about what they want to learn and how to use it...all of it.We live in dangerous times and i belive it is not going to get better but worse.

We best be prepare...MEN and WOMEN

[Rifleman]

Gee, where to begin.

The "best training" is in the military for this sort of thing. Our guys are actually living (and unfortunately sometimes dieing) with the training they receive. I promise you the people doing the training are deadly serious about getting it right because the people they are training will likely get to use those skills.

This is not true. In many cases training in the private sector surpasses what is available to our soldiers, marines and cops. Many of the groups in our vast array of Special Forces go out for training. They are even bringing in guys like Rob Leatham and Todd Jarrett (professional gaming shooters)

to teach them to shoot with the speed and accuracy they do. I have shot or trained with several former or active duty folks. Their skill does not alway surpass that of any civilian. I am pretty good with handgun and rifle though.

I don't know where you expect to use these training skills. Regardless of silly SHTF scenarios, it is highly unlikely that training as you describe will ever be used here except by people in professional positions; and top people in those positions are normally trained by the military and then transition into civilian positions. They are combat proven.

Silly SHTF scenarios like Katrina, a terrorist attack on US soil, a teenager open firing with a rifle in a crowded mall, a Muslim man shooting up the Jewish Cultural center in Seattle? This kind of stuff happens all the time. What would you have us do, wait for the police while 6 people die in a shopping center? No thanks, I am made of more than that.

If you just want the training for fun, then more power to you, but don't imagine that you are learning a skill at the level of those who practice for weeks, months or years for a combat event which is actually likely to happen to them.

I can learn at that level. I have practiced for years.

And the citizen soldiers of today are in the Guard. Rightly or wrongly, farmer citizens do not have access to the equipment it takes to train for a modern war. I or my ancestors have fought in every war in US history except Korea. But we all did it in uniform.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE.

Modern warfare as it turns out has gone old school. People who want to kill us live among us. They do not use sophisticated equipment. They use box cutters, small arms, cars, improvised explosives and cowardly tactics. Civilians are perfectly capable of equipping themselves and training for these threats, and they should.

This has been an interesting conversation, but I have to leave for a while.

[saintsfanbrian]

Not having been to this training, the question I ask, do you offer Women Specific training. What to do when the attacker comes up behind you? Or is the training strictly geared to you sitting in a bank line and a guy comes in to rob the place.

Like I said, I haven't been there, but I don't think mixed classes of Men and Women are what most women enjoy. They don't want some over geared Rangeresque person next to them while they are trying to figure out which end of the gun the bullet comes out of. Lets face it, the majority of the victims are Women, but they are women who typically don't carry themselves with attitude. My wife has never been victimized and never felt threatened. She walks with confidence. Does she know how to use a firearm, yup, but she doesn't carry. She simply has an air about her that you don't want to mess with her. And she backs it up. She has chased a petty theif around a parking garage and up and down stairs to get equipment that belonged to her company back. She had no weapon. Was she a little stupid? Probably, but she got the equipment back, and the punk was so affraid of her that he didn't think about doing anything wrong.

So, we can all say this and that about the training facility, but face it, women don't typically want to go, because, well, they are women and crawling around in the dirt just typically isn't their bag.

[molonlabetn]

I think the confusion which comes into play when talking about 'uber-tactical' training, is that many of those particular skills focus on assault tactics and gear which the average person would not have available, or would be superfluous, when confronted by a goblin on a street-corner.

True DEFENSIVE training (which is what the OP was referring to), involves honing your awareness, wit, and confidence in both your body and your CCW. Tac-vest, Camel-Bak and thigh-holster not required.

Combat training is best applied when one is committed to using their skills to consciously and knowingly put themselves in harms-way for a specific purpose. People who look at it like it's a game, and get all pumped up with the 'cool-factor', while not truly committed to facing the real thing with the same determination, are setting themselves (and those who depend on them) up for failure.

Combat is not 'fun'... especially when your buddies die. The grave nature of para-military training should not be taken so lightly.

But call it what it is. It is either preparation for combative resistance in your own neighborhood against occupying military forces... or it is a HOBBY.

[Marswolf]

We've slipped a bit off topic here and that's partly my fault. Jackdog made a comment about wannabees as viewed by his wife (on topic) and it got picked up by other folks (off topic?) and I responded, against my better judgment.

So to finish up my comments, yes a lot of us who are combat veterans do think civilians running around trying to act like military, but who don't want to actually be in the military, look pretty silly. We see it as an attempt at reflected and false glory that has not been earned. To paraphrase someone else, it looks stupid to us. It appears to be a desire for the respect due those who do actually serve by putting their life at risk without the actual sacrifice. There is a military joke that there is a name for civilian survivalists training for military assault --- supply depots. Call it a prejudice.

That's it. I'll shut up about that now.

I know a lot of women who carry. If they want training, they want to know how to shoot a home intruder or protect themselves in a parking lot or jogging in a park. As others have suggested, I think they are more receptive to women teachers.

[Guest Shay VanVlymen]

Too many people on this board think they know what happens in our training (or any other school's training for that matter) despite the fact that they have never been to any.

Survivalists. Wannabees. Lowly "civilians". Silly. Stupid.

You guys sure are full of disparaging labels. Some of your fellow members of this board are signed up for the TGO class. It would be interesting to ask them if they fit any of the categories. Maybe they are simply gun owners who want to actually know how to fight better with a gun? Nah. That can't be it. Let's call more names.

Does it make you feel better about yourselves to make every thread in the training section about how people who take professional training are stupid for doing so?

[molonlabetn]

The only place, I read above, those terms to be used are as descriptions of how they might be viewed by women...

Why ask a question and take the responses so personally? I'm sure they were meant constructively.