Gun Shop Trust

[Jasongar8]

It costs me 40 bucks for printing and background check. x2 thats only 80 bucks and the cleo signature is easy after that.

I go to the Sheriff's office and they print me for free. I just bring my fingerprint cards with me and they will do as many as I want. You can get the fingerprint cards from ATF for free too. So I go get printed and then drop my paperwork off with the Sheriff and come pick it up the next day. No big deal, no cost, no hassle.

That being said I should have set up a trust when I bought/made my first NFA toy. But I wanted it as fast and cheap as possible, which is pretty common for a 21 year old, and I didn't take the time to have one set up. And I have just done the sign offs ever since. I am going to have one set up soon so I don't end up like dlm and have too many toys to be able to afford to transfer them to a trust.

[Capbyrd]

In Memphis, the CLEO is the Shelby County Sheriff. The process is a little something like this.

Go to the courthouse with a money order for 40 bucks, your license and your fingerprint cards. Go to the Records office and tell them you need a No wants sheet and fingerprint cards and hand over your information and money order. Wait to be called and they will print you. Once printed, they give you the no wants sheet and you head back up to the 11th floor where the Sheriff's office is. Tell the secretary you need to get the CLEO signature and they will do it while you wait. Takes about 15 minutes. Process is done. It sucks that I have to pay 40 bucks but its nice that I don't have to wait for the Sheriff to get back to me.

[Il Duce]

what does it cost to transfer an item over to a trust and how does one go about adding an item to a trust?

[Capbyrd]

Its just a Form 4 transfer. Just the same as your initial purchase.

[PolePosition]

If you have NFA items pre-trust, is there a need to transfer them back to yourself post-trust? You can still continue to possess and use those items since you are separate from the trust. The only person who would need to transfer pre-existing NFA items into a trust would be one that wants to take advantage of the other benefits such as, allowing others in the trust to possess/use those items right. And if you want to leave them to an heir you can just use the Form 5....or am I totally wrong here.

I'm thinking of maybe doing a trust in the future (assuming that post-graduation and post-loan repayment that I'll be able to afford more goodies) but I have no intent of transferring my SBR back to myself.

[TGO David]

There is no compelling urgency to transfer items into a trust unless you want them there.

[midtennchip]

I have stayed out of this discussion to avoid the appearance of marketing. However, I have had several people send PMs asking more questions. So, to give the information one time and help everybody, I am posting now. I do not advise using a trust to everyone.  I personally think each person should decide if the cost of a trust is worth it. However, I personally don't think the cost is much of an issue if the client is wanting other people to be able to use the NFA items. Much better to spend the money to avoid any issues. However, if someone is using the trust only to avoid CLEO signature and/or fingerprints and photos, then I certainly suggest weighing the costs versus the benefits. The biggest benefits of a trust are:

1. avoiding the need for a CLEO signature. Sometimes this is an issue, not only where a CLEO might not want to sign it, but simply for privacy. A number of clients have had various reasons to want the privacy of not having to get the signature. Time is also an issue for a number of clients.

2. avoiding fingerprints and photos. Somewhat the same issues as the CLEO signature.

3. having multiple trustees who can use the NFA items. This is a huge issue for most clients. Technically, even allowing someone to use an NFA item that belongs to you at the range (with you there) is a violation of federal law. Yes, there is a chance nothing will happen (same with speeding, tax evasion, and any other crime), but if you plan on doing it, better safe than sorry.

4. making sure the NFA items are properly handled after your death. Yes, this might be handled properly without a trust, but the trust puts it into a legally binding document that the items are to be handled propering. The trust will legally designate who is to handle the items, how that person is to handle the items, when that person is to transfer the items to the correct beneficiary(ies), and name someone else in case that person isn't around.

There are some other issues, but these are the biggest ones.

The issues with copying trusts from someone else, using a "fill-in-the-blank" trusts, or using a "gun shop trust" are as follows:

1. Copying someone else's trust will often cause problems with naming the correct trustees, grantors, and beneficiaries. I often make a number of changes to the way I name people (not just change the name) to accomodate specific issues. You won't get that by copying someone else's trust. And you probably won't even know you've got a problem.

2. Fill in the blank trusts, or those from Quicken or other software, are almost always intended for estate planning purposes. They are drafted for use with non-regulated assets, such as real estate, money, stocks, etc. As a result, NONE of the provisions I use to cover the NFA regulations are in those trusts. Things such as, what happens if a trustee or beneficiary becomes ineligible to possess NFA items, what happens if only one NFA item exists when the trust is to be divided between the beneficiaries (you can't use "divide" an NFA item). You are looking for problems with these trusts. Look at it this way, you are essentially using a prescription drug for a purpose it was not intended for. Yes, it MIGHT work, but it might be a real problem. However, from my experience, the fill in the blank forms do NOT have the right provisions for NFA items. The ATF certainly might approve one (they've done it many times), but that isn't going to protect you if you ever run into a problem. The ATF approval is no defense!

3. Gun shop trusts are problematic for the reasons set forth above. But, as Patrick mentioned earlier, a gun shop that is helping people complete trusts are engaging in the unauthorized practice of law. That might not matter to the customer (except for the issues already raised), but I think the gun shop owner should be VERY concerned about it. The Tennessee Board of Professional Responsibility (which handles discipline in the legal profession) has been fairly active in pursuing people who are engaged in the unauthorized practice of law. They have made numerous examples of public notaries in the Latin American community in the last few years and they are expanding that effort to other areas.

If someone calls me, I talk the client through these issues before recommending a trust. I am NOT in the business of taking money from people if I don't think my work will be helpful. Several people on TGO have been advised by me NOT to set up a trust. The top issue in those cases was the fact that the client already owned NFA item(s) and really didn't intend to allow others to use the items. As a result, the trust didn't make financial sense. But, even in those cases, if the person was going to continue to purchase/trade NFA items, the trust might make sense. It is a personal issue and should be evaluated as such.

Thanks,

Chip