Gun Shop Trust

[Guest Grizzly Johnson]

I read where folks have them done.... some even do them at home with various programs and get approved without a problem.

But how legal are the ones that the Class 3 dealer can do for you?

I am in Middle Tn...... Franklin Co. and am looking into a trust for a couple of suppressors..... anyone have any references?

Thanks for the help.

[MacGyver]

While a trust from a dealer may pass muster with the ATF, you're certainly better served in the long run by dealing with an attorney who specializes in NFA trusts and can take into account your particular situation. I know that we've got a couple of vendors on here who have a lot of experience in putting trusts together for our members.

[MadMarx]

Just for curiosity sake, what is a rough price to get a NFA trust setup with an attorney, and also with a dealer setup trust?

[Guest Grizzly Johnson]

I have a friend that said he could do it at a small cost...... Others I have seen were charging around $200.... I had a guy that specializes in trusts, with an office in Nashville, charging $750....

[Stegall Law Firm]

A gun shop providing trusts is engaging in the unauthorized practice of law. That's a Class A misdemeanor in Tennessee and a possible violation of the Consumer Protection Act. Gun shops sell guns, period. They shouldn't be providing legal services.

[gr8smiles]

Since these purchases are both expensive and 'lifetime', you are much better off doing it right the 1st time. I used Chip Cain last year for mine and have no zero problems with the ATF getting approval in 90-120 days for my items. I also know that when I am gone that the items will be properly and legally dealt with. My kids are on the trust as well. The expense was not too great and most everything was done over the phone. I would highly recommend using one of the attorneys that support this forum. My 2 cents:)

[bubbadavis]

I also used Chip Cain (another TGO vendor) for my trust. It was a painless process and well worth the expense, IMO.

If you go the trust route, I'd recommend one of the TGO vendors that provide legal services. They not only deal with firearms in their legal practice but also participate in TGO and are personally involved with firearms. They can provide you both the lawyer and the gun owner viewpoints.

[Troutburger]

So if you have a trust. Do you still have to pay the $200 transfer tax, fill out the form 4, provide photos, and finger prints?

[Reservoir Dog]

So if you have a trust. Do you still have to pay the $200 transfer tax, fill out the form 4, provide photos, and finger prints?

Transfer tax - Yes

Form 4 - Yes

Photos - No

Fingerprints - No

CLEO signoff - No

[dlm37015]

i have several class 3 items would i have to pay 200.00 each to get them in a trust

[bubbadavis]

i have several class 3 items would i have to pay 200.00 each to get them in a trust

Yep. You would have to transfer ownership from you (the individual) to the trust. ATF considers that a transfer just like any other.

Makes as much sense as other gun laws...

[dlm37015]

puts me out too many

[Capbyrd]

Makes as much sense as other gun laws...

Actually, this part makes perfect sense. The trust is considered an entity in and of itself. Look at the trust like a company. You are an employee with access to the company tools. However, the company doesn't own you so they don't own your tools. If the company wants full access to your tools, they need to buy them from you.

Make sense?

[bubbadavis]

Actually, this part makes perfect sense. The trust is considered an entity in and of itself. Look at the trust like a company. You are an employee with access to the company tools. However, the company doesn't own you so they don't own your tools. If the company wants full access to your tools, they need to buy them from you.

Make sense?

Oh, I understand the legal aspect of it: the trust is a different legal entity than the person. However, moving ownership of items from an individual to a trust (that the individual is part of) seems to be a special case they could/should handle differently. Its a different situation (in reality, not legality) than me transferring ownership to you.

Of course, its a way for the government to make more $$$.

[TGO David]

Yep. You would have to transfer ownership from you (the individual) to the trust. ATF considers that a transfer just like any other.

Makes as much sense as other gun laws...

This is EXACTLY why I keep telling people to do the Trust before they start buying NFA items. The transfer fee is simply too high (for most folks) to go and buy them as an individual initially and then become savvy to the benefits of a Trust and want to transfer them into the trust. Do it right the first time and think long term instead of immediate term.

[Capbyrd]

I still think the trust isn't for everyone.

[Reservoir Dog]

I still think the trust isn't for everyone.

Care to elaborate? Why?

Other than the upfront cost of putting it together, I see no downside to a trust.

[Capbyrd]

I have one silencer and I have one SBR pending. I have no plans for more.

That's 400 dollars in stamps.

The cheapest I could find a LAWYER to do a trust in TN was 400 dollars. I would have effectively doubled the price of my NFA transfers by getting a trust.

Now, what does that trust do. It allows other people to be on it. Great. But I'm a single man with no plans for marriage in the next ten years. I have no kids. I have no family close that is interested in guns.

It allows me to skip the photo, fingerprint and cleo signature. It costs me 40 bucks for printing and background check. x2 thats only 80 bucks and the cleo signature is easy after that. No big deal there for me. And I printed my own photos that I took with my iPhone. No expense there at all.

The trust allows for easy transfer when I die. Thats great. But a Form 5 is an application for tax exempt transfer that will allow my heir to take possession without much hassle. All of that is already in my will.

What other benefit would there be for me?

I can't find a reason that is strong enough for me to justify the added cost. If a trust were closer to 200 bucks, I would have jumped on it before I bought my silencer. But I refuse to pay two tax stamps for a trust that is only going to have two items on it.

I hope that makes sense.

[TGO David]

I still think the trust isn't for everyone.

There is no one-size fits all course of action for anything that I can think of. However the benefits of using a Trust far outweigh the negative of the up-front cost. The only way I can think of it not being of any benefit is if you refuse to ever share your life or your love of shooting with someone else who might conceivably want the ability to possess one of your NFA items legally, or have those items passed on to them at a later point. If you're a hermit living on a mountaintop with just your dog, you might be right about the Trust being of no use to you.

[Capbyrd]

Why does it always come down to this with you. You always seem to ignore the Form 5 in every thread. A form 5 makes transfer to a loved one after death a non-issue.

I'm not a hermit but I don't loan out my expensive stuff either. If I want to share my firearms with someone (and I DO! alot!) then I go to the range with them.

[Reservoir Dog]

I hope that makes sense.

It does. If you have no plans to buy more, then a trust is useless.

I was referring to the general benefits of a trust over individual ownership. For someone who is looking to do multiple NFA items, a trust is easier in the long run, and far more beneficial.

[Capbyrd]

But that's my primary point. A trust isn't going to be for everyone. And its kind of annoying when every thread mentions the trust like its the greatest thing ever.

Not everyone fits into that mold.

[TGO David]

Why does it always come down to this with you.

Because I'm right?

Edited to add... I see that it always comes down to price with you, to borrow a phrase. You don't have to do this through a lawyer. It's probably better if you do, but I was able to do mine without a lawyer and then have a lawyer-friend look it over after the fact. He found no problems with what I did. So my trust cost me all of nothing to craft, nothing to have notarized through my bank, and the same $200 for the tax stamp that it cost you to submit to the BATFE, minus the finger printing charge, minus the hassle of having the CLEO look it over and drag their feet on, minus the intrusion into my privacy of having the CLEO know about it in the first place, WITH the added benefit that those who are on the trust can possess the items on the trust without me being present.

So, like I said, it's better.

[Capbyrd]

I'm lucky. My Sheriff's office is very easy to deal with.

And I'm sorry but in a situation like this, I want a lawyer that can back up his work. Just my personal opinion.

And it doesn't always come down to price for me. I named the other reasons that I don't see the benefit of as well.

The one thing I will say is that there are a couple of people that I would loan my stuff to but can't. But that's okay because I'm not sure that I would have them on the trust anyways.

I want to make it clear that I don't blame anyone for using a trust. I even recommend a trust for some people. But for some people, a trust isn't necessary so I don't see the point in suggesting a trust for everyone.

[TGO David]

I want to make it clear that I don't blame anyone for using a trust. I even recommend a trust for some people. But for some people, a trust isn't necessary so I don't see the point in suggesting a trust for everyone.

I agree with that, which is why I don't recommend it for "everyone" either. There are cases where the return on the investment may not be there. But once you go past one NFA item or want to allow your spouse or adult-children to take an NFA item and shoot with it without you present, it becomes worth it.