Got pulled over this morning with handgun in vehicle

[Patton]

It appears some are.

I don't work with any that are. I don't have proof of this but I am willing to bet that less than 25% that are stolen come back stolen. It will come back with something thats close sometimes. The NCIC for weapons is messed up, to my understanding it has to be reentered by Police every year. Because of this I don't check them unless I really feel the need.

[Fallguy]

I don't work with any that are. I don't have proof of this but I am willing to bet that less than 25% that are stolen come back stolen. It will come back with something thats close sometimes. The NCIC for weapons is messed up, to my understanding it has to be reentered by Police every year. Because of this I don't check them unless I really feel the need.

It has been a few years since I've dispatched, but I know it would come back with a hit if the Ser# matched even if the other info didn't. So you would have to also make sure and match the Make, Model and Caliber.

As far as reentering the records, the NCIC randomly generates a list of items an agency has entered as stolen. Someone from that agency is supposed to contact the officer that made the report and/or the party that the item was stolen from to verify that it is in fact still stolen and hasn't been recovered and forgot to be removed from NCIC. I can't remember the time frame, but if the entry isn't verified within that time frame the NCIC computer automatically purges the record.

[jport]

Just like any profession, their are people who know their work and people who guess at their work. I could see how an unexperienced LEO could make several mistakes and possibly infringe on a civilians rights. Just as this could be a serious inconvenience for the law abiding citizen, it also could carry serious consequences for the LEO. I was once pulled over in Memphis by an officer who had know idea of who I was. He took my DL(record squeaky clean). While I was in my truck, another officer pulled up. They both approached my truck, and the 1st officer on the scene asked to search my vehicle. Well knowing my rights, as well as wanting to see how things played out, I told him no. I was asked to step out of the vehicle where I waited an addition 20-30 mins for a k9 unit to show up. I was told the procedure that would follow for the k9 unit, and then watched the dog walk the truck. Although the dog gave no indication, I was told that he had. A search of my truck top to bottom began. After finding nothing, I was told that I was free to go. I learned a valuable lesson that day. If the LEO wants to search your vehicle, he will find a way to do so. All that I can figure is that just like any job, there are those who do things the right way, and those who don't. If everything were black and white we would have no need for attorneys.

[Patton]

Just like any profession, their are people who know their work and people who guess at their work. I could see how an unexperienced LEO could make several mistakes and possibly infringe on a civilians rights. Just as this could be a serious inconvenience for the law abiding citizen, it also could carry serious consequences for the LEO. I was once pulled over in Memphis by an officer who had know idea of who I was. He took my DL(record squeaky clean). While I was in my truck, another officer pulled up. They both approached my truck, and the 1st officer on the scene asked to search my vehicle. Well knowing my rights, as well as wanting to see how things played out, I told him no. I was asked to step out of the vehicle where I waited an addition 20-30 mins for a k9 unit to show up. I was told the procedure that would follow for the k9 unit, and then watched the dog walk the truck. Although the dog gave no indication, I was told that he had. A search of my truck top to bottom began. After finding nothing, I was told that I was free to go. I learned a valuable lesson that day. If the LEO wants to search your vehicle, he will find a way to do so. All that I can figure is that just like any job, there are those who do things the right way, and those who don't. If everything were black and white we would have no need for attorneys.

Unexperienced for sure as most now know to leave all occupants in the vehicle and when the dog hits we can then do a thorough search off all occupants upon exit.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Patton

[JayC]

The key to the SCOTUS plain view is probable cause of a crime... If officers are using the logic of a plain view exception, to run firearm serial numbers because all firearms possession is a crime, and therefore they have probable cause... I think we can all agree we should push the legislature to change the current law by a single word, changing the word defense to exception, which would seem to remove the probable cause to run firearms unless there is some other reason to run them.

And I agree, both at the state and federal levels of government, we have a necessary evil which has run amuck and turned itself into a tyrannical evil... Hopefully we can wake more people up to the fact that the government doesn't follow the restrictions that we the 'sovereigns' placed on it. And we must start electing people to office that take their oath to protect the contitution above all others... and we might feel a little less 'safe' with less government, but we'll be a lot more free and wealthier.

Tennessee violates the state Constitution daily... The ammo tax is unconstitutional, TICS is unconstitutional, and the HCP permit system is unconstitutional, any 5th grader can read our constitution and understand that the state may only regulate the manner in which we carry, not where or if we do. This happens because of horrible public education, and progressive notions that the government is there to help us... because people are too stupid to do for themselves.

Once people wake up to the fact that our government violates rights which are part of our humanity, that when they violate those rights, even a little bit, and turn a blind eye to those violations, they are no better than many of the oppressive governments which we routinely condemn on these very forums. The thing to keep in mind, it was perfectly legal for Stalin to kill over a million members of his military and citizen during the great purge, doesn't make the act any less evil. Just because a tyrannical government passes a law which violates God given rights, doesn't absolve that said government of their actions or make them any less wrong.

I know sometimes I'm seen as tilting at wind mills on here... I'm standing on my soapbox trying to get people to think, in hopes that before it's too late we can change course via the ballot box... and my ammo box can stay in the closet

If anything is in plain view (gun, computer, whatever) and the Officer can articulate PC to pick it up and look at it, a warrant isn’t needed even in your home. The courts are stricter on taking items from or entering a home than they are a car; but plain view doesn’t require a warrant.

It also depends on how and why the Officer is standing in your house. You have a right to bear arms on your own property without a permit, but if an Officer is called there on a domestic or a neighborhood situation and you are involved and standing there with a gun on or a gun is in the room; gun control goes into effect. Whether or not the guns stay there when the Officer leaves depends on the situation. But serial numbers would be getting run if it were me.

I agree wholeheartedly. However, just like those that claim to have some kind of guns rights under the 2nd; they are just talking points, the courts don’t agree and you will still end up in jail if you use them as a defense.

Fact is, your gun “rights” are very focused and very limited. The U.S. Constitution will never be used to expand them. If carrying a gun is going to be recognized as a right it is going to need to come from each and every state individually. Right now the score is 46-4 and Tennessee is on the wrong side of that.

Edited January 31, 2012 by JayC

[Fallguy]

Just like any profession, their are people who know their work and people who guess at their work. I could see how an unexperienced LEO could make several mistakes and possibly infringe on a civilians rights. Just as this could be a serious inconvenience for the law abiding citizen, it also could carry serious consequences for the LEO. I was once pulled over in Memphis by an officer who had know idea of who I was. He took my DL(record squeaky clean). While I was in my truck, another officer pulled up. They both approached my truck, and the 1st officer on the scene asked to search my vehicle. Well knowing my rights, as well as wanting to see how things played out, I told him no. I was asked to step out of the vehicle where I waited an addition 20-30 mins for a k9 unit to show up. I was told the procedure that would follow for the k9 unit, and then watched the dog walk the truck. Although the dog gave no indication, I was told that he had. A search of my truck top to bottom began. After finding nothing, I was told that I was free to go. I learned a valuable lesson that day. If the LEO wants to search your vehicle, he will find a way to do so. All that I can figure is that just like any job, there are those who do things the right way, and those who don't. If everything were black and white we would have no need for attorneys.

Unexperienced for sure as most now know to leave all occupants in the vehicle and when the dog hits we can then do a thorough search off all occupants upon exit.

Not that there is any real easy recourse...but...I thought you weren't supposed to be detained to wait on the K9 longer than the stop would reasonably take? If you have already been issued a citation or told you will be let off with a warning...isn't the stop pretty much over and you should be detained without some sort of PC? Is a drug dog ever called out that doesn't hit? Why does it seem drug dogs on more occasions than one might think hit on a vehicle where noting is found after? Of course the last question may go back to the previous.

[Patton]

Yes no longer than the stop would have taken, but courts have also ruled that if a citizen calls police sometimes it may take 30 minutes so 30 minutes for a the only dog in the county to get some where is not excessive. There is no defined time period and the only one I have ever heard of being thrown out took almost an hour to respond. There were several pounds of Marijuana and Pills thrown out thanks the turds lawyer. It seams like the turds are the ones that get the rights and the breaks.

[jport]

happens quite often Im sure. I went to college at the University of Memphis, and I can recall even seeing LEO's escorting people to restrooms in gas stations, to drug test after a traffic stop. There is a TON of crime there so I know they are probably over run, but it blew my mind the first time I saw it!

[Patton]

Also drug dogs will hit on residue from drugs and a bomb dog can hit on Ammo but not always. I knew a Military Working Dog that would hit on a loaded firearm on his hanler left thigh.

[TMF]

Unexperienced for sure as most now know to leave all occupants in the vehicle and when the dog hits we can then do a thorough search off all occupants upon exit.

Well hopefully now in the age of iPhones and YouTube overstepping officers will think twice before choosing to harrass innocent folks just to spite them for invoking their rights under the 4th Amendment. I don't have any reason to refuse a search, but when I'm traveling with the kids (both still in car seats) I'm not taking them out of their seats on the side of the road and I'll be damned if I'm going to be treated in such a manner just because an LEO doesn't believe I have a right to say "no". Better believe the camera is rolling and will be made public.

[JayC]

Well hopefully now in the age of iPhones and YouTube overstepping officers will think twice before choosing to harrass innocent folks just to spite them for invoking their rights under the 4th Amendment. I don't have any reason to refuse a search, but when I'm traveling with the kids (both still in car seats) I'm not taking them out of their seats on the side of the road and I'll be damned if I'm going to be treated in such a manner just because an LEO doesn't believe I have a right to say "no". Better believe the camera is rolling and will be made public.

Why would they think twice? What do they have to loose? Perfect example of the OH issue where the office threatened to murder a detained man on video. While most of us are happy after 6 months of being paid to ride a desk, he was finally fired... where are the criminal and civil charges?

The issue here is that public servants have little 'skin' in the game... If they violate somebodies rights, most likely the worse thing that happens is they get a paid vacation until the media looses interest and they go right back doing what they were doing before... Maybe if they are really un lucky, they'll loose their job, and 2 weeks later show up working for another government agency... Just how often do they stand trial for violating somebodies rights?

They don't have any skin in the game... no loss of income, no loss of their house, and no jail time... So, whats the downside of violating the law and the constitution?

[Patton]

If you look normal, seem normal, and act normal you will not get harrased . The truth is there are too many turds on the street to even think about messing with honest people. I often ask can I search your car just to see there reaction. I can't get a warrant for a search based solely on a no response but I have never been refused a warrant for a vehicle search when I have had something good. I have been refused for a house search very frequently though, the courts feel you have little privacy on public roads but a lot in your own home. I actually agree.

In another state I worked in I stopped a car leaving a known drug house that I knew my department wasn't going to do anything about. The people in the car thought they were lawyers and thought they knew my job better than I did. Well, it took all of 22 minutes to get a search warrant. It turns out the people went to the house to buy a TV of Craigslist. If they would have told me that in the begining I would have been able to piece info together to figure out they may be telling the truth. I could see the TV and I'm sure everything in the house had been traded for drugs.

[Patton]

Why would they think twice? What do they have to loose? Perfect example of the OH issue where the office threatened to murder a detained man on video. While most of us are happy after 6 months of being paid to ride a desk, he was finally fired... where are the criminal and civil charges?

I actually bet that Cop gets harrased by his former coworkers everytime he leaves his house after that. He was way out of line.

[Patton]

I really like talking about this as 99 out of 100 people on the street have no clue about there rights. I record every contact I have so why would I care if someone records me? I like those that get a video camera to record me making contacts. I laugh and say if your going to record I'll turn mine off to save the battery.

[Fallguy]

Yes no longer than the stop would have taken, but courts have also ruled that if a citizen calls police sometimes it may take 30 minutes so 30 minutes for a the only dog in the county to get some where is not excessive. There is no defined time period and the only one I have ever heard of being thrown out took almost an hour to respond. There were several pounds of Marijuana and Pills thrown out thanks the turds lawyer. It seams like the turds are the ones that get the rights and the breaks.

Well as far as the time it takes for the police to respond to a citizens call....I have heard of it being hours, so I'm not sure how that time factors into the time you can hold someone on the side of the road waiting for the dog after you have already given them their ticket. I understand that there isn't a set time, but again if the ticket is issued, isn't the stop over? "Am I free to go?", if they are not free to go, they have been seized and don't you need some PC or RAS to seize them? I agree that some laws allow turds to get away, but it also is to protect innocent citizens from an overbearing government. If a few turds get away to protect the innocent from harassment, I can live with that. A true turd is going to mess up again anyway and will eventually get caught.

Also drug dogs will hit on residue from drugs and a bomb dog can hit on Ammo but not always. I knew a Military Working Dog that would hit on a loaded firearm on his hanler left thigh.

I understand....I work in a place that deals with explosives, they have a form letter that employees can take with them if flying because it is possible for there to be enough residue on them/clothes to set off the TSA scanners.

If you look normal, seem normal, and act normal you will not get harrased . The truth is there are too many turds on the street to even think about messing with honest people. I often ask can I search your car just to see there reaction. I can't get a warrant for a search based solely on a no response but I have never been refused a warrant for a vehicle search when I have had something good. I have been refused for a house search very frequently though, the courts feel you have little privacy on public roads but a lot in your own home. I actually agree.

Do you ask when you already have cause to search or do you ask sometimes just out of the blue to see their reaction?

In another state I worked in I stopped a car leaving a known drug house that I knew my department wasn't going to do anything about. The people in the car thought they were lawyers and thought they knew my job better than I did. Well, it took all of 22 minutes to get a search warrant. It turns out the people went to the house to buy a TV of Craigslist. If they would have told me that in the begining I would have been able to piece info together to figure out they may be telling the truth. I could see the TV and I'm sure everything in the house had been traded for drugs.

Now if they were really of the type of people you say....would you really have bought they were just there to buy a TV? LOL

[Fallguy]

I really like talking about this as 99 out of 100 people on the street have no clue about there rights. I record every contact I have so why would I care if someone records me? I like those that get a video camera to record me making contacts. I laugh and say if your going to record I'll turn mine off to save the battery.

I appreciate the discussion as well and hope that you can see I'm not trying to argue with you for argument sake, but to discuss the issue from another point of view.

...and why don't you let me save my battery and just send me a copy of the stop?

[Patton]

If ticket is issued or if warning is given it's over, you are free to go.

I only ask to search if I suspect they have something illegal. I don't ask to search unless I want to, but if they say go ahead it may not be worth my time.

The folks with the TV were leaving a Pot house and they were college kids that that just wanted to be smart asses. I allready knew the pot dealers traded drugs for valuables stolen or not. They would trade for pennies on the dollar we later learned so people could get there fix. Being that they rarely sold drugs for money but rather sold there traded merchandise made them harder to catch. Probably could have bought some good guns cheap but I'm sure some where hot.

[JayC]

Why would they think twice? What do they have to loose? Perfect example of the OH issue where the office threatened to murder a detained man on video. While most of us are happy after 6 months of being paid to ride a desk, he was finally fired... where are the criminal and civil charges?

I actually bet that Cop gets harrased by his former coworkers everytime he leaves his house after that. He was way out of line.

I bet he already has a job working at another law enforcement agency/department. But the point is the guy was clearly in the wrong, how many nights did he spend in jail? None. How much did he have to pay out of his pocket for violating the law? Not a single penny.

I believe you were talking earlier about Altoids containers, and how a lot of officers bend the rules on those, but you don't... How many would do that if your first offense for performing an illegal search was a life time loss of your POST certification and 10 years in state prison?

Today those officers bend the rules, have no skin in the game if they get caught... maybe a druggie gets off... but they don't loose their career, have no risk of loosing their house from civil law suits, and won't spend a night in jail.

This is my broken window theory of law enforcement, because we allow public servants to violate small rights, with no punishment, bigger rights end up getting violated... place harsh punishments on small violations and you'll rarely see the big ones happen.

But, the truth is, we need to move investigation of government employees out of the DAs office and create a completely separate group who is not beholden to any other agency or department.

[jtmaze]

Well as far as the time it takes for the police to respond to a citizens call....I have heard of it being hours, so I'm not sure how that time factors into the time you can hold someone on the side of the road waiting for the dog after you have already given them their ticket. I understand that there isn't a set time, but again if the ticket is issued, isn't the stop over? "Am I free to go?", if they are not free to go, they have been seized and don't you need some PC or RAS to seize them? I agree that some laws allow turds to get away, but it also is to protect innocent citizens from an overbearing government. If a few turds get away to protect the innocent from harassment, I can live with that. A true turd is going to mess up again anyway and will eventually get caught.

I understand....I work in a place that deals with explosives, they have a form letter that employees can take with them if flying because it is possible for there to be enough residue on them/clothes to set off the TSA scanners.

Do you ask when you already have cause to search or do you ask sometimes just out of the blue to see their reaction?

Now if they were really of the type of people you say....would you really have bought they were just there to buy a TV? LOL

I will vouch for that I get to hear/feel them blow up the old or excess every so often.

JTM🔫

Sent from my iPhone

[jport]

My Memphis stop that was mentioned earlier had no ticket issued. They pulled me over for a seatbelt violation, guess I got out of the ticket lol.

[JayC]

My Memphis stop that was mentioned earlier had no ticket issued. They pulled me over for a seatbelt violation, guess I got out of the ticket lol.

And why is it against the law for an adult to not wear a seatbelt to begin with? You can jump out of a plane, or go mountain climbing in the dead of winter... yet somehow you're not responsible enough to choose whether to wear a seatbelt or not? How exactly does you not wearing a seatbelt cause me physical harm?

[hkgonra]

And why is it against the law for an adult to not wear a seatbelt to begin with? You can jump out of a plane, or go mountain climbing in the dead of winter... yet somehow you're not responsible enough to choose whether to wear a seatbelt or not? How exactly does you not wearing a seatbelt cause me physical harm?

Beacuse it costs the state millions if you don't wear a seatbelt.

[JayC]

Beacuse it costs the state millions if you don't wear a seatbelt.

How? (I already know the answer, my point is that highlights yet something else the government shouldn't be doing).

If that is the real concern, pass a law that says the government won't spend any money on somebody injured while not wearing a seat belt.

Then people are free to do what they want, and we don't have yet another useless law on the books.

[jport]

all I know was that in my particular situation it made me an easy target for some good ole un constitutional searchin

Edited January 31, 2012 by jport

[hkgonra]

How? (I already know the answer, my point is that highlights yet something else the government shouldn't be doing).

If that is the real concern, pass a law that says the government won't spend any money on somebody injured while not wearing a seat belt.

Then people are free to do what they want, and we don't have yet another useless law on the books.

They would rather work things towards the goal of being able to dictate exactly how we live with the excuse that it costs the gov money due to healthcare.