Got pulled over this morning with handgun in vehicle

[DaveTN]

It all comes down to what a officer articulates.

Exactly. And we rarely (never) get to hear that on this forum or in the newspaper.

[TMF]

Your specific complaint right now seems to be that you don’t think it’s legal for a cop to disarm you and run a weapons check. It’s a crime for a citizen to carry a gun in this state, so I have to guess that you think because you have an HCP the cops shouldn’t be checking your gun? You agreed to several things when you paid to become part of our special little group. Surrendering your weapon when the Officer asks was part of that.

It traffic stop happened long before I was even able to get a HCP... I was 19ish. I'm not overly nuts about it since I'm sure it could be argued in the court of public opinion that I gave consent to search, it was just an inconvenience and I didn't like being treated like some kind of criminal threat just for speeding. It was simply a thought provoking experience I wanted to bring up in conjunction with TGO member stories of having their weapons confiscated and run on routine stops. It's more of "right" vs "wrong" and why question. I'm not much of a legal expert, but it just seemed to me after my personal experience and the experiences mentioned by others that this is something in common practice but doesn't seem (to me) to pass the sniff test.

[hkgonra]

Another thing to consider that probably comes into play in these situations is that an officer can ask you for lots of things and if you agree then he can do it. He may or may not have the right to search your car but when he says do you mind if I search your car and you say sure go ahead you gave him that right.

[Patton]

If all you have to hide in your vehicle is weapons then you would be better off refusing a search. A explosives dog will hit on ammo, but thats another scenario.

If you refuse and that rifle case is in plain view then I am going to search whether you like it or not, if I have reasonable suspicion that is. If I don't have reasonable suspicion I really don't care that I do see it. Now, if a rifle case is locked then I have to have a warrant to open it.

[TMF]

If all you have to hide in your vehicle is weapons then you would be better off refusing a search. A explosives dog will hit on ammo, but thats another scenario.

If you refuse and that rifle case is in plain view then I am going to search whether you like it or not, if I have reasonable suspicion that is. If I don't have reasonable suspicion I really don't care that I do see it. Now, if a rifle case is locked then I have to have a warrant to open it.

Ugh, I think you're missing the question altogether. This isn't about trying to play the "FU copper" game. This is simply a law abiding person getting stopped for a traffic violation. I'm not suggesting lying to police or "a how to guide" of a 4A defense. I'm simply questioning whether an LEO can just take a weapon (rifle or pistol) without the consent of the owner, and run numbers on it.

I'm looking it at this perspective: I'm a law abiding citizen. I don't have a record; I don't fit the profile of someone that is predisposed to criminal activity; and the last moving violation I had was a decade ago. Now, if I get pulled over and an officer sees I have a laptop on the passenger seat and asks to take it to see if it's stolen I can say "no". Replace "laptop" with "rifle case" and play the same scenario. That doesn't pass the sniff test. Period.

[Patton]

I do remember a Case Law on the books where a person had a weapon in there vehicle and when the police went to grab it the person stopped the search, but the courts ruled once the Police have seen or know a item is there they have a right to seize for a reasonable(?) period of time for an investigation.

Does anyone know which case?

I thought it was Arizona vs. Gant but it doesn't sound like what I remember but it may have steemed from it.

Edit*

As it turns out I just had a lawyer friend call me and say it was Hicks v. Arizona that was in the back of my mind. Courts ruled police can not remove a object (stereo) to see a serial number.

Another point being if your weapon matches the description of a missing, stolen, or believed to be used in a crime weapon then police have full authority to investigate.

No official court ruling has been made on police running your serial numbers because "they can". Obviously Police can disarm anyone during a stop but it is in question if they can for "no reason" run serials. It has been declared that police can not stop you just to run a serial number.

The big question is during a Officer Safety unarm can they, whats funny is the Lib's think they can. Conserv's argue it's a form of gun control.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Patton

[Fallguy]

I have to agree that it depends on the situation. If there has been a recent report of a stolen laptop/rifle it would make since to run the number, if not...then not as much. But is doubtful that the driver would know of any such report.

As far as weapons...it's TN..posession period is illegal, there are certain defense, HCP, unloaded, on your property etc.... Now if you were carrying in AZ where it is legal to carry period....then it would be a different story since the mere posession is not a crime.

[TMF]

Another point being if your weapon matches the description of a missing, stolen, or believed to be used in a crime weapon then police have full authority to investigate.

Rog, I would think this would fall into the same category as anything that matches the description of a stolen item... for example, if you're driving around in a vehicle that matches a description of a stolen vehicle that would be enough to be pulled over and have the VIN run. It just seems to me whenever there is a thread regarding a stop a few people will chime in on how their weapon was taken and s/n run. Just didn't seem like it would be okay to do that unless there was a good reason.

On scene there isn't anything I'd do, but I'd certainly be ticked enough to pursue complaints with the department until such time as a satisfiying response from them was made to me. It's not about having something to hide, but more about being treated with the appropriate respect as a citizen with rights.

[DaveTN]

Rog, I would think this would fall into the same category as anything that matches the description of a stolen item... for example, if you're driving around in a vehicle that matches a description of a stolen vehicle that would be enough to be pulled over and have the VIN run. It just seems to me whenever there is a thread regarding a stop a few people will chime in on how their weapon was taken and s/n run. Just didn't seem like it would be okay to do that unless there was a good reason.

On scene there isn't anything I'd do, but I'd certainly be ticked enough to pursue complaints with the department until such time as a satisfiying response from them was made to me. It's not about having something to hide, but more about being treated with the appropriate respect as a citizen with rights.

I would treat you with respect, explain why I was running the numbers, and give you the information on who to contact to make a citizens complaint against me. If you didn’t like my explanation or think it was appropriate; you wouldn’t like the one you would get from them either. Sorry, you feel like a criminal when your gun is getting checked. Do you feel that way when they run your DL and check for warrants?

[hkgonra]

I would treat you with respect, explain why I was running the numbers, and give you the information on who to contact to make a citizens complaint against me. If you didn’t like my explanation or think it was appropriate; you wouldn’t like the one you would get from them either. Sorry, you feel like a criminal when your gun is getting checked. Do you feel that way when they run your DL and check for warrants?

Is that pretty much department policy in Rutherford county ? I had heard some departments were pushing that way.

[TMF]

I Do you feel that way when they run your DL and check for warrants?

My DL is issued by the state and isn't my personal property. I would say that committing a traffic offense is within the realm of probable cause to check my DL information. I don't see how that makes someone a suspect for burglary/robbery... I just don't.

Through the front window of my house you can clearly see a big flat screen TV. You might, on occassion, see me in front of it cleaning a weapon. Is this PC to come into my home, confiscate my weapon, check the s/n on it and my TV? The inside of my home is just as much my property as the inside of my vehicle and it's contents.

[Will H]

Yeah, I am late, but I just saw this.

First, to carry a handgun in Tennessee with a permit is a privilege not a constitutional right.

I am a citizen of the United States of America. Last time I checked the constitution said that my right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The right to bear something means the right to carry something. Now I understand the need to keep as many unstable and/or criminal people from going armed as possible, but make no mistake. It is illegal in Tennessee to go armed, and the HCP is defined as a defense against that law... A law that is in direct conflict with our constitution. It IS my right to carry a weapon, per the constitution, it's just that modern society has chosen to ignore the meaning of the word infringement and instead substituted the word forbidden. This has been done at the local, state and federal level. I am not saying that it is right or wrong, just that as the constitution is written it IS my right.

This is my opinion and I do not mean for it to be taken as fact....

[Oh Shoot]

.... I am not saying that it is right or wrong, just that as the constitution is written it IS my right....

You have no right you can't exercise. It becomes only a word you can debate with other words.

- OS

[Will H]

That is exactly what it has been reduced to. No more than that.

[Will H]

Even so I have finally made the decision to pay the state their pound to get the HCP. It's that or go defenseless due to my own principles which seem antiquated...

[Oh Shoot]

Even so I have finally made the decision to pay the state their pound to get the HCP. It's that or go defenseless due to my own principles which seem antiquated...

Yep, little sense in debating the rights you don't have with your cellmates, comrade.

- OS

[Patton]

On scene there isn't anything I'd do, but I'd certainly be ticked enough to pursue complaints with the department until such time as a satisfiying response from them was made to me. It's not about having something to hide, but more about being treated with the appropriate respect as a citizen with rights.

If the officer disarming you to run a check is your only complaint you'd be the best laugh my Chief has had in a while. The truth is most people in government at a local level think guns are taboo and that police can do what ever to get guns off the street. We have a commisioner that thought it was a federal crime for someone to carry a firearm into a bank. Most Chiefs and Sheriffs no matter how conservative at one time go the gun control stance when they make it to the top. Just remember all the Chiefs and Sheriffs that were against Bar/Park carry Bill.

I am probably one of the most carefull not to violate a Constitutional Right officer around here. Imagine a Terry Frisk if you will. I can't tell you how many officers I have seen say, "let me pat you down". "Oh wait whats this? Where did you get this weed?" I say this because I have had supervisors ask me why I didn't.... Just because they can sleep at night after a violation of a constitutional right doesn't mean I can. I had a classic text book case of a search with the Alttoids can which I am not really supposed to open but 99.9% of officers open it. Closed containers are supposed to be a no go unless the police allready know whats inside. This is where a gun case is a gun case.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Patton

[DaveTN]

Is that pretty much department policy in Rutherford county ? I had heard some departments were pushing that way.

I have no idea what the policy is in Rutherford County or if they even have a policy on what they check. I’m not a cop anymore and never was in this state. I would guess it’s like any other department though; what gets checked or doesn’t get checked is at the discretion of the Officer and what he can justify.

[Patton]

I would guess it’s like any other department though; what gets checked or doesn’t get checked is at the discretion of the Officer and what he can justify.

Just like everywhere I have ever been.

[JayC]

The Supreme Court years ago declared Probable Cause is not needed just Reasonable Suspision. Like I said a infraction and as opppsed to suspiscious activity wouldnt fly for me to search.

RS is the level you need for a Terry Stop, not for running serial numbers of items carried by a person stopped, that still requires PC.

[JayC]

I have to agree that it depends on the situation. If there has been a recent report of a stolen laptop/rifle it would make since to run the number, if not...then not as much. But is doubtful that the driver would know of any such report.

As far as weapons...it's TN..posession period is illegal, there are certain defense, HCP, unloaded, on your property etc.... Now if you were carrying in AZ where it is legal to carry period....then it would be a different story since the mere posession is not a crime.

Fallguy,

Using that logic the police wouldn't need a search warrant to seize a weapon in your home, since it's illegal to posses all weapons, and we only have defenses to the possession. We both know that wouldn't hold water in any court here in TN.

[JayC]

Yeah, I am late, but I just saw this.

I am a citizen of the United States of America. Last time I checked the constitution said that my right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The right to bear something means the right to carry something. Now I understand the need to keep as many unstable and/or criminal people from going armed as possible, but make no mistake. It is illegal in Tennessee to go armed, and the HCP is defined as a defense against that law... A law that is in direct conflict with our constitution. It IS my right to carry a weapon, per the constitution, it's just that modern society has chosen to ignore the meaning of the word infringement and instead substituted the word forbidden. This has been done at the local, state and federal level. I am not saying that it is right or wrong, just that as the constitution is written it IS my right.

This is my opinion and I do not mean for it to be taken as fact....

Just one point, your right to keep and bear arms does not come from the constitution... It comes from your creator or your humanity, and the constitution is there to protect that right from the government which our founding fathers saw as a necessary evil.

While most doesn't understand the different, if our rights come from the Constitution, then government can change the constitution and take those rights away... if rights come from our creator or humanity, then no law can take them away only infringe illegally and immorally upon them. It's an important difference.

[DaveTN]

Fallguy,

Using that logic the police wouldn't need a search warrant to seize a weapon in your home, since it's illegal to posses all weapons, and we only have defenses to the possession. We both know that wouldn't hold water in any court here in TN.

If anything is in plain view (gun, computer, whatever) and the Officer can articulate PC to pick it up and look at it, a warrant isn’t needed even in your home. The courts are stricter on taking items from or entering a home than they are a car; but plain view doesn’t require a warrant.

It also depends on how and why the Officer is standing in your house. You have a right to bear arms on your own property without a permit, but if an Officer is called there on a domestic or a neighborhood situation and you are involved and standing there with a gun on or a gun is in the room; gun control goes into effect. Whether or not the guns stay there when the Officer leaves depends on the situation. But serial numbers would be getting run if it were me.

Just one point, your right to keep and bear arms does not come from the constitution... It comes from your creator or your humanity, and the constitution is there to protect that right from the government which our founding fathers saw as a necessary evil.

While most doesn't understand the different, if our rights come from the Constitution, then government can change the constitution and take those rights away... if rights come from our creator or humanity, then no law can take them away only infringe illegally and immorally upon them. It's an important difference.

I agree wholeheartedly. However, just like those that claim to have some kind of guns rights under the 2nd; they are just talking points, the courts don’t agree and you will still end up in jail if you use them as a defense.

Fact is, your gun “rights†are very focused and very limited. The U.S. Constitution will never be used to expand them. If carrying a gun is going to be recognized as a right it is going to need to come from each and every state individually. Right now the score is 46-4 and Tennessee is on the wrong side of that.

[Fallguy]

Fallguy,

Using that logic the police wouldn't need a search warrant to seize a weapon in your home, since it's illegal to posses all weapons, and we only have defenses to the possession. We both know that wouldn't hold water in any court here in TN.

Has it been tested in court? I don't really things LEOs are running serial numbers on every weapon they come across for no reason, but I'm not sure there is much that can be done about it if they choose to.

My main problem is TN law and the way it is worded seems to directly violate the TN Constitution....but that is just my opinion...and that and $5 will get you cup of coffee at Starbucks...lol

[hkgonra]

I don't really things LEOs are running serial numbers on every weapon they come across for no reason,

It appears some are.