Got pulled over this morning with handgun in vehicle

[billyscott]

TMF 18B, I don't know about probable cause but I do know that if you are stopped in Rutherford County or Murfreesboro when the LEO runs your DL number the dispatcher comes back with your DL status and if you have a HCP. Even if you had a HCP and let it expire, they know.

My thoughts on it is, I know the LEO has a gun, I'll tell him or her I have a gun and show him or her my HCP. Up front.

When I took my HCP class about ten years ago we were told by the instructor that this would not happen. I don't know if something has changed or if that's just how the instructor thought it was.

[Guest pfries]

I asked two of the Bristol TN LEO's today for a personal/professional opinion, both stated please inform. One stated if a HCP holder does unless they were doing something very outrageous it was merit for a warning, the other said being armed is a constitutional right use it, and you have to inform. The other officer and I corrected him and he seemed a touch shocked. We did let him know that if he asked a HCP holder has a duty to inform, at this point he stated, "That’s good to know". It is still up to the individual but I for one have always (had to in MI when I lived there) and will continue to inform. It would take something very negative happening to me to change my personal view on this.

[TMF]

TMF 18B, I don't know about probable cause but I do know that if you are stopped in Rutherford County or Murfreesboro when the LEO runs your DL number the dispatcher comes back with your DL status and if you have a HCP. Even if you had a HCP and let it expire, they know.

My thoughts on it is, I know the LEO has a gun, I'll tell him or her I have a gun and show him or her my HCP. Up front.

When I took my HCP class about ten years ago we were told by the instructor that this would not happen. I don't know if something has changed or if that's just how the instructor thought it was.

Yeah, I understand how your HCP is tied to your DL and all. I was wondering about running s/n on the weapon you're carrying. If an officer can't take possession of your weapon unless he has reason to then why is it SOP for some officers to take it and run the s/n before giving it back. To me it seems that he would need PC to do it. I've had this happen before when transporting a rifle (legally in a locked case) and the officer helped himself to confiscate it back to his vehicle and run the numbers. He wouldn't let me go until it came back clean.... is this not a violation of the 4th Amendment?

[JayC]

I know that LEOs do this all the time, but don't they need PC in order to run the numbers?

I know, I know... "its illegal to carry in TN and a HCP is a defense to that"... however, code states that LEO can only temporarily disarm you if he believes his/yours/others safety is at risk, so if that criteria isn't met how do LEOs have the right to take your weapon and run the s/n? Isn't that treading close to 4th Amendment?

How is the entire disarm for "officer safety" not a violation of the 4th Amendment in and of itself? At the end of the day, many departments run the s/n of ever firearm they come in contact with as a standard operating procedure. The check is recorded in a database which is shared national between law enforcement agency's, and has created a backdoor computerized national gun registry, which the ATF is prohibited by law from creating through purchase records.

Ask yourself this question... Even if a police officer has a valid 'officer safety' reason to disarm you... why would they have any reason to believe your firearm is stolen? Which is the only reason to run the s/n? There is no good reason that a permit holders or hunters firearm is ever ran as a possible stolen firearm unless the officer has PC to believe that firearm is stolen.

We need a law which does one of the following:

1. Prohibits all law enforcement officers within the borders of TN from running s/n of firearms without specific PC to believe the firearm is stolen. The PC must be documented in writing as part of the process of running the s/n. With criminal and civil penalties for violating the law.

or

2. A law which prohibits the storing or submitting to an external company/agency the s/n of any firearm unless it matches that of a stolen firearm when ran. Again with both civil and criminal penalties for violations.

Neither of those laws would be unreasonable restrictions on LEO in finding truly stolen firearms, and would protect law abiding citizens from having their firearms documented by the government.

[TMF]

How is the entire disarm for "officer safety" not a violation of the 4th Amendment in and of itself?

I agree, but it's the law right now. I would like to see it changed or at least have some more specific verbage. It seems they kept it vague on purpose for the sake of LE. But since it is lawful for them to temporarily disarm you that shouldn't give them the right to run numbers on your weapon. There is no PC to suspect the weapon is stolen. It seems like Tennessee Code doesn't support it and it's a 4A violation.

Any LEOs want to weigh in? I've been wondering this for a while.

[hkgonra]

Never had my SN run on any of my guns, I thought the cops only did that to obvious degenerates.

Maybe we just have better cops in Bartlett.

[J5684]

I agree, but it's the law right now. I would like to see it changed or at least have some more specific verbage. It seems they kept it vague on purpose for the sake of LE. But since it is lawful for them to temporarily disarm you that shouldn't give them the right to run numbers on your weapon. There is no PC to suspect the weapon is stolen. It seems like Tennessee Code doesn't support it and it's a 4A violation.

Any LEOs want to weigh in? I've been wondering this for a while.

First, to carry a handgun in Tennessee with a permit is a privilege not a constitutional right. If I were to walk in your house or on your property and start running serial numbers without probable cause or a warrant, that would be unconstitutional.

DO I care that law abiding citizens are legally carrying? NO! I am all for it. I would never disarm a LEGAL permit holder for no reason and I know that most leo's I work with won't.

No I would not run your gun's S/N on a traffic stop.

No I would not run your gun's serial on a call for service except as stated below.

I would disarm you if you were an alleged offender in a call for service, yes I would run the S/N if you were an alleged offender of a violent offense or drug offense or arrested for any charge as required by evidential policy.

There is no law prohibiting an officer from running the serial number.

There is no backdoor data base that ties a person's name with the serial of a gun that is run through NCIC.

I have run many weapons through NCIC and it does not require, or have a place for a persons name or any information other than make, model, caliber and serial. To narrow a check the make, model and caliber is normally only added since many weapons sometimes will have the same numeric serial and make and caliber is used to identify if NCIC "hits" on the number alone.

hope this helps

[Pain103]

First, to carry a handgun in Tennessee with a permit is a privilege not a constitutional right. If I were to walk in your house or on your property and start running serial numbers without probable cause or a warrant, that would be unconstitutional.

DO I care that law abiding citizens are legally carrying? NO! I am all for it. I would never disarm a LEGAL permit holder for no reason and I know that most leo's I work with won't.

No I would not run your gun's S/N on a traffic stop.

No I would not run your gun's serial on a call for service except as stated below.

I would disarm you if you were an alleged offender in a call for service, yes I would run the S/N if you were an alleged offender of a violent offense or drug offense or arrested for any charge as required by evidential policy.

There is no law prohibiting an officer from running the serial number.

There is no backdoor data base that ties a person's name with the serial of a gun that is run through NCIC.

I have run many weapons through NCIC and it does not require, or have a place for a persons name or any information other than make, model, caliber and serial. To narrow a check the make, model and caliber is normally only added since many weapons sometimes will have the same numeric serial and make and caliber is used to identify if NCIC "hits" on the number alone.

hope this helps

Don't worry about it even though most cops in TN are just average people who wouldn't trample on anyone's constitutional rights there will be people you can never convince that on here and other places. Just let them believe what they want. Oh and the tinfoil hat wearers will never believe there isn't a gun registration log being maintained via cops running serial numbers on NCIC. It's useless to attempt to change anyone's opinion or thoughts on the website just look for good bargains and funny stories.

[TMF]

First, to carry a handgun in Tennessee with a permit is a privilege not a constitutional right. If I were to walk in your house or on your property and start running serial numbers without probable cause or a warrant, that would be unconstitutional.

Taking any property from me (home or not) and running serial numbers to see if it's stolen without probable cause is unconstitutional. The fact it is a firearm shouldn't matter, especially if the firearm is stored in a legal manner (which is how mine was stored when I was pulled over and had the number on my rifle checked). If it's not unconstitutional to run serial numbers on personal property to see if it's stolen what's to keep an officer from confiscating my iPod/laptop/phone to see if it's stolen?

[Patton]

If it's not unconstitutional to run serial numbers on personal property to see if it's stolen what's to keep an officer from confiscating my iPod/laptop/phone to see if it's stolen?

I see this done around here very often by officers and I couldn't believe the it the first time a 14" Poulan Chainsaw came back stolen. I have ran firearm serial numbers before on NCIC but have gotten away from it because it normally comes back with anything thats close.

[Patton]

I think I'm opening a can of worms.

I'm answering this kind of vague but, it has been determined allready that during a traffic stop or even a casual stop on the street an officer has the "authority" to investigate as covered in Terry vs Ohio and also search for weapons. Remember a stop should have reasonable suspicion if not probable cause. During a stop your 4th amendment may be temporarily voided due to the fact you have commited a crime and may be detained for investigation. This holds true for even a minor traffic stop because a citation is a legal summons and is isued in lieu of arrest.

I have never been one to even come close to violating a constituional right so for something like a tail light out I would not run serial numbers.

[hornett22]

I have never been disarmed or had my serial numbers run during a traffic stop. Usually a thank you for informing. Usually no ticket. Must be an east Tenn thing. Might be because i'm not in pimp/druggie side of town.

[DaveTN]

If it's not unconstitutional to run serial numbers on personal property to see if it's stolen what's to keep an officer from confiscating my iPod/laptop/phone to see if it's stolen?

Nothing. They don’t need to confiscate it to check for stolen.

The same rules apply as always. Is it in plain view? Do I have a reason to think it may be stolen? Sure, I just handled a burglary investigation yesterday (or whenever) where a laptop was stolen.

If you truly think your Constitutional rights were violated get an attorney or go file a citizen’s complaint against the cop.

Your gun was in plain view and it’s a crime to carry a loaded gun in this state. The Cops are free to check it and if he wants to run the serial number; so be it. I’m sorry you think that was an intentional violation of your rights, but it’s just good Police work; it’s how burglars get caught.

[TMF]

Nothing. They don’t need to confiscate it to check for stolen.

The same rules apply as always. Is it in plain view? Do I have a reason to think it may be stolen? Sure, I just handled a burglary investigation yesterday (or whenever) where a laptop was stolen.

If you truly think your Constitutional rights were violated get an attorney or go file a citizen’s complaint against the cop.

Your gun was in plain view and it’s a crime to carry a loaded gun in this state. The Cops are free to check it and if he wants to run the serial number; so be it. I’m sorry you think that was an intentional violation of your rights, but it’s just good Police work; it’s how burglars get caught.

That's not what I'm talking about. The only time I had a weapon taken and serial numbers run were when transporting a rifle in a closed case with no ammo in the vehicle. I'm talking about probable cause. There is no probable cause to believe ANY items of my vehicle are stolen, and it's not illegal to transport a firearm... I didn't need a permit to do what I was doing. Seeing a laptop/iPod/rifle case in plain sight is not probable cause to suspect me of doing/having anything illegal.

What I'm asking is whether or not running a s/n without consent to search on a normal traffic stop is a violation, and if it is why is it done so often? I've seen it posted here many times that people had their weapons run.

[DaveTN]

That's not what I'm talking about. The only time I had a weapon taken and serial numbers run were when transporting a rifle in a closed case with no ammo in the vehicle. I'm talking about probable cause. There is no probable cause to believe ANY items of my vehicle are stolen, and it's not illegal to transport a firearm... I didn't need a permit to do what I was doing. Seeing a laptop/iPod/rifle case in plain sight is not probable cause to suspect me of doing/having anything illegal.

What I'm asking is whether or not running a s/n without consent to search on a normal traffic stop is a violation, and if it is why is it done so often? I've seen it posted here many times that people had their weapons run.

No, there is no law against running serial numbers. It would be a “search†question of how did it get from your car into the Officers hands.

I assume the case was in plain view. Did he ask you if he could see it? Did he see the case and ask if there was a gun in it? Did you hand him an HCP and he ask if you have any guns in the car?

Guns are a high theft item. If it’s in plain view and he checked it, or a laptop, or an iPad, the search could be contested by your attorney and a Judge would rule based on that specific incident and whether or not the Officer could justify his actions. (if you were arrested)

I always ran the serial numbers of guns…. Period, no matter who had them. Good people end up with stolen guns without knowing it. It’s a good way to back track and take a burglar off the street.

[TMF]

I always ran the serial numbers of guns…. Period, no matter who had them. Good people end up with stolen guns without knowing it. It’s a good way to back track and take a burglar off the street.

Why stop there? Why not run serial numbers on other high-dollar items in the vehicle? If you see an iPod docked in the car why not check that? If you see a laptop in the backseat why not check the serial number on that? Good people end up with stolen laptops and such too.

[DaveTN]

Why stop there? Why not run serial numbers on other high-dollar items in the vehicle? If you see an iPod docked in the car why not check that? If you see a laptop in the backseat why not check the serial number on that? Good people end up with stolen laptops and such too.

I did. Especially if the person was a known criminal or if I had knowledge of an item that had been reported stolen that was now in plain view to me. (I’m talking high theft items; they didn’t have laptops or iPods when I was a cop.)

[Patton]

Did your parents not warn you about buying items that may be stolen when you were a kid? If you got caught with stolen merchandise it would be up to you to prove your innocent in court, which depending on other charges and circumstances is not too hard to do. As for a police officer searching your vehicle neither give consent nor give them a reason to PC for a warrant? I stopped a guy for speeding with a rifle in plain view during opening day, I knew what he was doing so I "just wanted to make sure it wasnt loaded for my safety".

[Oh Shoot]

Did your parents not warn you about buying items that may be stolen when you were a kid? If you got caught with stolen merchandise it would be up to you to prove your innocent in court,....

It is my understanding that American jurisprudence places the burden of proof on the prosecution. Even in Chattanooga.

- OS

[Patton]

^OS, you are correct. It never hurts to have evidence to support your claim of not knowing an item was stolen.

[TMF]

The point I was making is you can't do any of this without probable cause. Just because you see high dollar items in a vehicle doesn't mean you get to start taking serial numbers to see if it's stolen, or hold someone on suspicion of being a criminal simply for having expensive stuff. When I was pulled over it was for speeding, and I did give the officer permission to search the vehicle after I informed him there was a rifle in the car. I guess my consent was implied when he took the weapon back to his vehicle to run the numbers, so I'm not bitching about that.

The point I'm bringing up is that I've seen here posted before that members have had their weapons temporarily confiscated during traffic stops where the officer went back to run the numbers. It doesn't seem that would pass the 4A sniff test. I'm not asking for the purpose of what will hold up in court and what won't if it come back stolen, I'm asking about normal, law abiding citizens showing no suspicous behavior or fitting a description that would give an LEO PC to search. It just seems to me that there is a consensus that taking private property to check if it's stolen (when there is no PC to believe that it is) is somehow okay.

[Patton]

The Supreme Court years ago declared Probable Cause is not needed just Reasonable Suspision. Like I said a infraction and as opppsed to suspiscious activity wouldnt fly for me to search.

[TMF]

The Supreme Court years ago declared Probable Cause is not needed just Reasonable Suspision. Like I said a infraction and as opppsed to suspiscious activity wouldnt fly for me to search.

I don't think that speeding alone is reasonable suspicion to have your personal effects confiscated until the LEO determines that they aren't stolen. These are the cases I'm referring to that I've seen posted.

[Patton]

It all comes down to what a officer articulates. I stopped a speeder on opening day of gun season wearing blaze orange with a rifle in the front seat. I saw no reason to believe the weapon was stolen nor had he commited a crime with the weapon. However several years ago I stopped two guys for speeding wearing mostly all black and they each had a semiauto in their waistband. Both weapons came back clear but we were able to link other items as being taken in recent robberies. If I had not found the handguns I may not would have found the other items.

[DaveTN]

I don't think that speeding alone is reasonable suspicion to have your personal effects confiscated until the LEO determines that they aren't stolen. These are the cases I'm referring to that I've seen posted.

Just like a Judge we would have to look at each individual case and hear what the Officer had to say. We don’t usually get to do that on this forum; we get one side of the story. It’s fun to guess what may have been going on when you have one side that thinks cops can’t legally do this/that and one side that knows they can. But it’s just wild azz guessing for entertainment. Look at the pages and pages of all the guessing we did on the Knoxville cops incident; none of us had a clue of what happened, but it was entertaining to guess at all the possibilities.

I ran all high theft items that I got access to through the computer, just like I ran checks for DL & warrants; I arrested a lot of suspended or revoked drivers and people wanted on warrants that way.

If you have specific questions about what can or can’t be searched on a vehicle search; we have those discussions here all the time and would be happy to discuss your specific questions. Your specific complaint right now seems to be that you don’t think it’s legal for a cop to disarm you and run a weapons check. It’s a crime for a citizen to carry a gun in this state, so I have to guess that you think because you have an HCP the cops shouldn’t be checking your gun? You agreed to several things when you paid to become part of our special little group. Surrendering your weapon when the Officer asks was part of that.

All I can say is that if you think your rights have been violated; you have recourse. And I don’t say that to be a smartazz; most Departments take Citizens complaints very seriously. But people get frustrated because those are only for complaints that the Officer acted inappropriately, violated department policy, or violated the law. They aren’t to decide if the Officer had probable cause to search your car; only a Judge can decide that (or a DA if he’s tossing your case out because of it).