Open carry triggers business to post gun buster.

[Guest ab28]

Heh. You must not be married. My wife has more crap than that just in the shower !

Nah, I am very attractive and in college, I prefer to keep my options open. Being married has always seemed like it would be too confining to me, I prefer mobility and simplicity.

Edited May 20, 2012 by ab28

[R_Bert]

Nah, I am very attractive and in college, I prefer to keep my options open. Being married has always seemed like it would be too confining to me, I prefer mobility and simplicity.

[TMF]

...if 2 people were robbing a business, and I was near one, and the other was farther away, the most efficient thing would be to draw my pistol, shoot the guy closest to me in the head(instant fight stopper, and I don't have to worry about a wounded BG shooting me in the back while I am engaging other targets) then take out the second.

Anyone that mugs or robs me will get a distraction long enough to have me pull my weapon and put 5 rounds in them or so.

I'm a minimalist, I don't own anything. Some hiking gear, a 4 year old computer, a Glock, and a 23 year old station wagon with 240,000 miles on it.

Nah, I am very attractive and in college, I prefer to keep my options open.

Folks, we have a return of the real life Martin Riggs.

[DaveS]

It's retarded liberal BS, laws made by pencil pushers who have never been in a gunfight. I hate the impracticality of some of the laws in regards to self defense. Say, if 2 people were robbing a business, and I was near one, and the other was farther away, the most efficient thing would be to draw my pistol, shoot the guy closest to me in the head(instant fight stopper, and I don't have to worry about a wounded BG shooting me in the back while I am engaging other targets) then take out the second. I can't mess around with trying to be "humanitarian", winning gunfights is about efficiency and destroying the enemy as quickly as possible without getting shot yourself.

That was one good thing about Iraq, once you got engaged, they didn't care how you killed the enemy, long as you got it done with minimum casualties to your own side. All these rules and laws have no place once a gunfight starts. I'll do everything I can to not have to shoot someone, but if it gets to that point, I'd rather just get it done as fast as possible.

Last time I checked this wasn't Iraq. If the BG has his gun pulled already robbing someone, most likely you'll get shot before you clear leather! Tell us where to send you flowers!

I'm pretty much learning that you want to carry where you want, when you want, and shoot someone in the process. Well son, I hope it all works out for you! Why would you put yourself in that situation for someone elses money? Money that is insured to begin with! Like I said, I hope it all works out for you!

[Oh Shoot]

Why fine someone five hundred bucks, or in this case, even have it on the books for those WITH permits? That is more expensive in some states than carrying WITHOUT a license! ...

Irony is, it might well be more than the fine for unlawful carry right here in TN!

- OS

[Guest ab28]

Folks, we have a return of the real life Martin Riggs.

Save the bullsh1t, I was replying how I would respond in a situation. The minimalist thing is about life. The less I own, the more time I can spend doing what I want instead of taking care of stuff. It's like trying to argue logic with people who believe in the bible.

Last time I checked this wasn't Iraq. If the BG has his gun pulled already robbing someone, most likely you'll get shot before you clear leather! Tell us where to send you flowers!

I'm pretty much learning that you want to carry where you want, when you want, and shoot someone in the process. Well son, I hope it all works out for you! Why would you put yourself in that situation for someone elses money? Money that is insured to begin with! Like I said, I hope it all works out for you!

That is why you learn combatatives and disarms, it is not all about using a handgun. It is not about the money, it is about them threatening your life. You haven't learned anything, honestly. My firearm is a last resort, but there is no time for diplomacy when someone is threatening your life.

Edited May 20, 2012 by ab28

[TMF]

Save the bullsh1t, I was replying how I would respond in a situation. The minimalist thing is about life. The less I own, the more time I can spend doing what I want instead of taking care of stuff. It's like trying to argue logic with people who believe in the bible.

Sure thing tough guy. I'm guilty of hijacking this thread anyway so I'm not gonna continue down that path.

Just one more thing, that post I wrote earlier today about being careful about what you say was real genuine advice.

[Guest ab28]

Sure thing tough guy. I'm guilty of hijacking this thread anyway so I'm not gonna continue down that path.

Just one more thing, that post I wrote earlier today about being careful about what you say was real genuine advice.

Heh, not a tough guy, I'm 5'11, 150, and generally look like a "girly man". I understand about the advice, but I was explaining it in practical terms. If someone sues me, there is nothing for them to get. I really don't want to have to shoot someone, at all. I'll do what I can to not have to. I have apologized, ect, to people, even being in the right, to disarm them. I always prefer diplomacy. I am actually a really nice guy, it is hard to have a discussion with texting, or boards like this, as you lose a lot of communication and it is easy to take things the wrong way.

I speak with simplicity and efficiency. Sorry if it came across in this board as trying to sound like a bad@ss. I like to get along with people, and try not to disrespect anyone. If a situation ever comes across where I actually need to use my gun, it is because nothing else would work, and I need to finish it as fast as possible. I'm not going to try to care about the life of some crackhead when he has a knife on me. Obviously, he doesn't care about my well being, so I am not going to take pains to care about his. Anyone that dangerous needs to be put down. I explain killing people the same as any other technical term. I see it as a problem to be solved in the most efficient way possible. I'd rather not have to do it at all, but if it happens, best it be finished as fast as possible, and not leave an angry, wounded criminal to come after me and my family years later.

As for the bible thing, that was not meant as a personal comment. I was raised Southern Baptist(more like brainwashed), and having a logical, scientific mind, I was never able to understand how people could believe a lot of the fantastical things in the bible that defy physics, ect. I know people say you gotta have faith, but to me that always sounded like a cop out, and I could never just believe despite all evidence.

Edited May 21, 2012 by ab28

[RobertNashville]

I think it is ok for someone to stick up a sign for whatever but there should not be a weapons offense over a sign for people with permits....Most states people do not have to worry about a five hundred dollar fine over a sign as long as they are LICENSED. You are asked to leave, don't leave, then it becomes a problem. It works out fine in other states, why not TN?

Not trying to pick on you here are all so please don't take it that way but....

You can likely find hundreds if not a few thousand posts on TGO of various people complaining about the fact that carrying past a properly posted sign carries a criminal charge in Tennessee. If all those people got involved by joining TFA and/or just consitently (and politely) contacting their representatives/senators in the state legislature about it we MIGHT just see the law get changed. Only the legislature CAN change the law and they aren't going to even consider it an issue unless WE make it an issue.

Complaining about in on TGO may make us feel better but that's as much good as the complaining can do!

[RobertNashville]

Folks, we all talk about OUR rights to carry where we please. What about the RIGHTS of the other person/property owner? Does OUR RIGHTS with an HCP "trump" the RIGHTS of the person that don't want our weapons there? Everyone HAS RIGHTS...lets respect them! The "NO WEAPONS" sign posted on a business holds the same weight as "NO HUNTING", NO FISHING, NO TRESPASSING, NO WALKING ON THE GRASS! Our HCP's don't TRUMP the rights of others! Your rights to carry a weapon on other peoples property against their wishes is NOT a VIOLATION of your 2A rights!

With regards to your your statement above, after looking at this issue of "property rights" for a while now is that property that the nature of "property" changes once it has been given over to business use where the public/employees are invited (even desired to be) and that is does not have the same rights to enjoyment as does property used for private purposes (such as a residence). Even property used solely for private purposes can and usually does have restrictions about what can and can't be done on the property (and for good reason) including who is allowed to be there and what you can legally do to make them leave. Government bodies can and do regulate what can happen on/with "property"; both private and business (and especially so with regards to business property). As such, I would suggest that the question of whether governments "can" is a question that has been settled a long time ago. The only thing really left to argue about that has any real meaning is what regulations/requirements should be placed on property.

All that to say, If my view of property rights (private vs business) is correct, then as a armed citizen wanting to carry my weapon where I go and as recognized and protected by the Second Amendment is not "disrespecting" the rights if a business property owner because the rights many ascribe to property, espeically business property, don't actually exist as a matter of law.

Further, I think there is a way to handle this issue without trampling on anyone's rights but we'll never get to that point if we are always stuck on the issue of "property rights" and the, I believe, incorrect understanding of those rights.

Carrying with an HCP is NOT a RIGHT...it's a PRIVILAGE granted to you via training, background check and a bunch of money. As a property owner, If I say NO WEAPONS...I MEAN NO WEAPONS....you'll be left sobbing in the corner if the right property owner catches you!

Actually, unless someone really makes an ass of themselves, they aren’t going to be sobering in a corner; they’ll simply be asked to leave and if they do to, that’s where things will end. If they don’t then the person in control of the property can call law enforcement and have them removed/charged with trespass, etc.

Bearing arms is NOT a privilege; it IS a right; a natural right that supersedes any government or bureaucracy.

I do agree that Tennessee, as a sovereign state, has a power to institute the HCP process BUT, while Tennessee can have the HCP process without violating someone’s Second Amendment rights, their ability to regulate the wearing of arms in Tennessee is supposed to be limited to doing so only “with a view to prevent crime†but TN does not have the right to violate the U.S. Constitution. I would suggest that the state legislature has taken power it does NOT have when they dictate that no one can carry a firearm UNLESS they have a HCP; that is something that firearm enthusiasts have allowed to happen by their silence and hopefully something that is changed soon so that we have constitutional carry in TN.

Most of ya'll fuss'n about about your "Rights" most likely have NO CLUE what the 2nd Ammendment says in detail. Please read it! I promise you one thing, go against a property owner in this situation, and they'll win everytime!

I heard similar statements/arguments with regards to “parking lot bills†even though the courts have already ruled against the business “property†owners who tried to stop such laws as a violation of their “property rightsâ€. I believe that many people have a fundamental misunderstanding of just what property rights actually exist and they end up assuming many more "rights" than have ever actually existed in the law.

In Ramsey Winch Inc. v. Henry, the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals unanimously ruled that workers in Oklahoma have the constitutional right to keep guns in their vehicles parked on their employers' parking lots and rejected the argument that the property owner's rights were being violated.

I realize that the "parking lot" question is not identical to the posting issue but the "property rights" issue is at the heart of both.

[DaveS]

Folks, we can argue this until we're blue in the face. Us gun owners are crying "My 2A Rights are being violated", while the porperty owners are crying "My 1A Rights are being violated. If the sign says "No Weapons", stay out....if No Sign...carry until you're giddy!

I love my HCP privilages, but I would truly like to see the law makers make "carrying past a sign" similiar to a DUI. Fine, jail and suspension of the HCP. That's the only way some of us will start being responsible for our actions as "Law Bidding Citizens".

Dave Sayre

(931)802-2138

Edited May 21, 2012 by wd-40

[Guest 270win]

Carry past a sign like DWI? The two are totally unrelated and not similar. DWI is a hazard to the public and puts people in danger. Carrying past a sign is a victimless 'crime' and honestly a gray law. If carrying WITH a permit past a sign was similar to DWI, you might as well not even get a permit, carry an extremely small gun, and don't tell anyone. I knew plenty of old timers that NEVER had a permit and when available wouldn't get it because of the hassle.

People in TN should not be encouraged to leave handguns in cars where they can be stolen. The local parks with signs, the other property with signs, and schools are bad enough. Add more and you basically have a permit that is worthless and only good to keep a car gun-something legal in most states around TN WITHOUT a permit.

39-17-1359 only seems to apply to permit holders anyway. Jacking up the fine for that is pointless. We should work at doing away with the park fine signs, the school fine/felony, and the 500 dollar fine signs. If just those three were taken care of, you could carry anywhere legally in TN without fear of a fine for accidently carrying a gun somewhere when you went to the trouble to get a permit.

[Guest 270win]

I firmly believe that the legislature should have worked at modifying 39-17-1359 to only fine those who refuse to leave, and also the park sign law for statewide uniformity with the local parks. I don't have a problem with some parks even having a rule against guns, but hey don't fine folks who have a permit. Just ask them to leave. Same as with some of these private and public property. The truth is as long as you conceal your gun and not in violation of the law, someone's rules won't matter. It is better though to protect the few good people who get permits from fines.

States around TN that do not fine people over signs who leave when asked are: Mississippi (for those who qualify on the range), Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Missouri, Florida as far as I can tell. I am unsure what happens in AR or NC.

[Guest A10thunderbolt]

As long as the person leaves when asked, whats the big deal? The property owners are responsible for enforcing their rules not the state. If the Property owner askes them to leave and not come back, can they prosecute you for trespassing if you return? Just wondering I have a feeling there are redundant laws in place.

[DaveS]

As long as the person leaves when asked, whats the big deal? The property owners are responsible for enforcing their rules not the state. If the Property owner askes them to leave and not come back, can they prosecute you for trespassing if you return? Just wondering I have a feeling there are redundant laws in place.

I've participated in this thread all I'm going to. If the property is posted, we SHOULD NOT HAVE TO BE ASKED TO LEAVE, as we should have NEVER WENT IN TO BEGIN WITH...THAT IS MY POINT!!! Make the penalty harsh, and we WILL NEVER have to be asked to leave.....PERIOD!

Dave

[DaveTN]

As long as the person leaves when asked, whats the big deal?

Because the owners don’t want to walk up to someone openly carry a gun and tell them to get out. What’s the big deal with giving property owners absolute immunity for a shooting that takes place on their property? Well….. the attorneys are never going to go for that.

Therefore the state doesn’t have the authority to tell them anything. The state can pass all the laws they want about carry and private property. But the fact still remains it’s a crime to carry a gun in this state, and having a permit is a privilege not a right. Until that changes, the only one with any rights in this debate is the property owners.

[Oh Shoot]

....39-17-1359 only seems to apply to permit holders anyway. ...

I certainly don't read it that way. HCP holders are just mentioned so that it's clear it includes them.

It's just a separate charge from unlawful carry for one without a permit.

- OS

[Guest ab28]

I've participated in this thread all I'm going to. If the property is posted, we SHOULD NOT HAVE TO BE ASKED TO LEAVE, as we should have NEVER WENT IN TO BEGIN WITH...THAT IS MY POINT!!! Make the penalty harsh, and we WILL NEVER have to be asked to leave.....PERIOD!

Dave

There should be no penalty at all, as mentioned many times, there are different rules in place for a public business. You can't have your business open to the public and expect complete private property rights as well.

[Guest 270win]

The reason why our firearms rights in TN will never advance is because too many people are willing to actually heavily fine/restrict permit holders. Our permit will not be good for much. Arkansas sadly is in the situation where at times the concealed handgun license is worthless because too many people have said "Well we don't want a licensee here" so the licensee is messed up and constantly taking a gun on and off and leaving it in the car. TN was pretty bad too when you couldn't carry the gun in any parks or places that serve alcohol. All the permit was good for was keeping a pistol loaded in your car. What's the point of paying for a permit when it was a Class C Misdemeanor to keep a handgun in the car without a permit. Heck I'm close to the Mississippi line and spend a lot of time down there and people down there can have a loaded firearm without any license.

Arkansas is messed up because there are TWENTY places off limits in statute due to people thinking a gun shouldn't be carried in so many places. You will have TN in that situation if you fine people in the same fashion. Improving TN does not happen by fining permit holders.

[RobertNashville]

I've participated in this thread all I'm going to. If the property is posted, we SHOULD NOT HAVE TO BE ASKED TO LEAVE, as we should have NEVER WENT IN TO BEGIN WITH...THAT IS MY POINT!!! Make the penalty harsh, and we WILL NEVER have to be asked to leave.....PERIOD!

I agree, HCP holders shouldn't carry past a properly posted sign so long as the law says they should not.

However, anyone who has not lost his/her constitutional rights through proper adjudication should be able to carry their weapon on their person anywhere they are legally allowed to be...their car, their home, their place or employment, a school...ANYWHERE.

• If I knew ahead of time where I might actually need a firearm to defend myself I'd be happy to only carry it then.
  
• If I had 24/7 armed security to protect me, like many of those who advocate a complete ban on firearms, I'd probably not carry.
  
• If I had a cop within earshot of me 24/7; same thing as above.
  
• If 99.9% of all dangerous criminals stayed locked up until they were too old/infirm to be a danger to society I might feel better about not being armed.
  

However...

• I don't have a crystal ball that works.
  
• I can't afford 24/7 armed security.
  
• Cops take 5-10 minutes on average (if I'm lucky) to respond to a 911 call, and
  
• Most criminals, if they are caught at all, spend less time locked up than I've spent earning my next Master's degree.
  

That's why I carry - that's why I NEED to carry - that's why I should be allowed to carry anywhere I am required to or allowed or invited to be without my God given right to own and carry arms infringed by worthless politicians, fear mongers and brain-dead bureaucrats and liberals.

In fact, using the phrase "allowed to carry" is one that should never need to be spoken as it's repugnant to the meaning of the Second Amendment.

[Guest oxfordgt]

I OC everywhere. One day in the gas station down the street the owner stopped me and asked me about how to get a permit. I talked to him a bit and he told me he wished more people would openly carry in his store because it made him feel that less people would ever attempt to hold them up knowing that there are armed people in the area.

Alot of permit holders around here open carry. Most store clerks glance at my weapon and never flinch or look uncomfortable. LOL my wife caught one employee at Lowes trying to take a pic of me.