Open carry triggers business to post gun buster.

[chances R]

A10, just another discussion on a forum....not a you against me sort of thing. I actually do 'all of the above'. Avoid some places that are posted. Honor the signs most of the time. But like ab, sometimes I evaluate the risk vs. benefit. TMF had me there for a moment on 'rightful assembly', but I go back to the point that doing so does infringe on others' rights, peace and quiet and does actively annoy others in a private property setting......different than being on the sidewalk. If I CC, no one knows, doesn't offend or frighten, and yes if asked to leave I would do so without protest.

[TMF]

I CC, no one knows, doesn't offend or frighten, and yes if asked to leave I would do so without protest.

Well I agree with you there. Furthermore I don't think it should be a crime to carry past a posting. I look every time I go into a business and I still carried past a legal posting by accident. On entry I was distracted by my kids trying to carry one and hold the hand of the other while navigating through folks that were leaving. On the way out I noticed the gunbuster. I think it's crap that I could have been fined for doing nothing wrong other than not noticing. However, if the manager had noticed my pistol and asked me to leave I would have done so without incident, because I believe it is his right to do so regardless of the fact I disagree with his reasoning behind it.

I guess what I'm saying is if you're CCing and no one is the wiser then fine, but if it's past a legal posting you may be setting yourself up for a headache.... not likely but the chance is there. However, being incensed by the fact that someone posts to the point of wanting legislation to force policies on business owners is a little fascist... it's not lost on me that our government already does that, but it's wrong, and more wrongs don't make a right.

[RobertNashville]

It isn't a "rule"; it's a law and those who chose to knowingly disobey it aren't doing themselves or their fellow armed citizens any good. Disobeying a proper posting discredits the entire notion that citizens who carry are "law-abiding" people; law-abiding people don't purposely disobey the law (we don't just obey the ones we happen to agree with).

Perhaps more importantly, when we patronize a business that's posted we are giving our custom to a business that doesn't deserve it! Any business that post doesn't deserve a dime of our money.

I understand that circumstances sometimes dictate that we patronize a business that is unfriendly to armed citizens but in those instances, if we are going to give them our custom anyway then we should at least obey the law. At least that's how I see it.

[Guest ab28]

It isn't a "rule"; it's a law and those who chose to knowingly disobey it aren't doing themselves or their fellow armed citizens any good. Disobeying a proper posting discredits the entire notion that citizens who carry are "law-abiding" people; law-abiding people don't purposely disobey the law (we don't just obey the ones we happen to agree with).

Perhaps more importantly, when we patronize a business that's posted we are giving our custom to a business that doesn't deserve it! Any business that post doesn't deserve a dime of our money.

I understand that circumstances sometimes dictate that we patronize a business that is unfriendly to armed citizens but in those instances, if we are going to give them our custom anyway then we should at least obey the law. At least that's how I see it.

I believe the law should be there to help people, not hurt them. How I choose to defend myself is my own personal business, no one else's. Not a mall security guard, and not a business owner's. Mine alone. Therefore, what they want regarding the matter isn't even worth considering.

Edited May 16, 2012 by ab28

[RobertNashville]

For the first part, I see a business as having different rules than a private home. If you have the public coming and going at your place of business, you don't really have the right to consider the building personal property like a house. I have also served a tour in Iraq, and have invested a lot of time and money in extra training courses for defensive handgun usage. I don't trust some overweight mall security cop to defend my life better than I can. Also, the "no guns" mentality is stupid and irrational, and I have no reason to acknowledge irrational beliefs. I carry anyways.

I generally won't go to a posted business, but I won't think twice about carrying there, either. I don't look like someone that carries a gun, and concealed means concealed. My personal self defense and how I choose to do so is my own decision, no one else's. The only place I won't carry is federal property, and on my campus.

I believe, based on history and logic that there is a HUGE difference between "private property" used for private purposes (i.e. a residence, etc) vs "business property" that is purposely given over to/invites the public to be there.

I too don't like leaving my personal safety to others (which is why I carry and why I spend a considerable amount of time/money each year on training).

Nevertheless, what you or I believe is immaterial because Tennessee law currently allows business property to be posted and forbid the presence of firearms on the property and until that law is changed, knowingly carrying past a proper posting, no matter how well you conceal, is a criminal offense.

I chose to neither break the law or depend on a "mall cop" to protect me - I go somewhere else (and when it makes sense to do so, I let the business know why I'm spending my money somewhere else).

[RobertNashville]

I believe the law should be there to help people, not hurt them. How I choose to defend myself is my own personal business, no one else's. Not a mall security guard, and not a business owner's. Mine alone. Therefore, what they want regarding the matter isn't even worth considering.

Neither your opinion nor mine is going to change the fact that in Tennessee, it isn't "your or my own personal business" even if it should be.

Our ability to legally go armed and where we can go armed is controlled by the legislature - committing a criminal offense by carrying where yo are prohibited from doing so is not how law-abiding people should affect change; in fact, it may have just the opposite outcome.

Edited May 16, 2012 by RobertNashville

[1pointofview]

robert I agree with the premise of simply not going to a business who chooses to post their property. though I believe posting legal permit holders is the same thing as telling someone they are not welcome because of color or nationality.

but I went to the cool springs mall last week for the first time in over a year. got to the door, saw the posting and walked back to the car to put my firearm back. when I got home I sent an email letting their management company that my family will no longer go to this mall because posting legal permit holders is so counter productive. the same people who will carry illegally are the ones who will take advantage of those who will adhere to the sign. No one carries for protection are looking to use it, we carry FOR PROTECTION from those who want to do harm. THere has been an increase of violent crime in the cool springs area and the mall is a prime place for criminals to take advantage of the defenseless.

THere is nothing in the mall that I need I can not get elsewhere..

[hornett22]

I struggle with these subjects all the time. I feel strongly about both but i have to respect their property rights. I would carry past a posting depending on the situation but generally i exercise my freedom to go elsewhere.

[Guest 270win]

AB28,

I totally agree with you. I think it is ok for someone to stick up a sign for whatever but there should not be a weapons offense over a sign for people with permits. Kind of defeats the whole point of having a permit when you can still get fined for carrying. Now if someone spots your weapon and asks you to leave and you don't leave, then that is another matter. It always has been and always will be trespassing. Missouri has a nice law that does not make it illegal for carry in places that have signs, even schools, but if you don't leave when asked you can get fined 100 bucks. That is common sense, something TN legislature doesn't have over these stupid signs. Most states people do not have to worry about a five hundred dollar fine over a sign as long as they are LICENSED. You are asked to leave, don't leave, then it becomes a problem. It works out fine in other states, why not TN?

Edited May 17, 2012 by 270win

[DaveS]

2) Possession of a weapon on posted property in violation of this section is a Class B misdemeanor punishable by fine only of five hundred dollars ($500).

AB28,

Missouri has a nice law that does not make it illegal for carry in places that have signs, even schools, but if you don't leave when asked you can get fined 100 bucks.

This is Tennessee's....

[Guest 270win]

TN does not give people the chance to leave when asked. Also TN does not give people the chance to leave schools when asked or local parks. Both have fairly heavy fines. Missouri's law is much better than Tennessee and honestly Alabama is better than either.

[DaveTN]

TN does not give people the chance to leave when asked.

So far that’s what happened to everyone I have heard of so far that was confronted by the Police after carrying past a sign at a business. (School’s a different story) So far no one on here has posted about being cited for carrying past a sign. Do you have a link to a story where it happened? I know I'm curious to know if its ever happened.

[VERO1]

Was the original business ever identified anywhere in the last 130+ posts?

[DaveS]

TN does not give people the chance to leave when asked. Also TN does not give people the chance to leave schools when asked or local parks. Both have fairly heavy fines. Missouri's law is much better than Tennessee and honestly Alabama is better than either.

I believe the "Gun Buster" sign on the door gives YOU every opportunty to leave, BEFORE you enter!

Dave

Edited May 18, 2012 by wd-40

[Guest 270win]

Why fine someone five hundred bucks, or in this case, even have it on the books for those WITH permits? That is more expensive in some states than carrying WITHOUT a license! The less silly laws the better that apply to those carrying on a license/permit. A business in Alabama can put up a sign, but a licensee does not have to worry about some overzealous anti gun prosecutor slapping a fine on him. Heck you can even carry in schools down there. So should licensees in TN not be able to carry in schools either? I mean if you are willing to fine licensees 500 bucks over a sign then you are probably ok with the felony/misdemeanor charges for carrying in schools in TN.

[DaveTN]

you can even carry in schools down there. So should licensees in TN not be able to carry in schools either? I mean if you are willing to fine licensees 500 bucks over a sign then you are probably ok with the felony/misdemeanor charges for carrying in schools in TN.

Some are trying to change that. They also want to change carrying without a permit from a misdemeanor to a felony.

http://blog.al.com/b...lator_work.html

If you want to use another state as an example of what we want our carry laws to be, I would pick one of the four so called “constitutional carry†states. Although I think they may have laws against carrying at schools also.

[Guest A10thunderbolt]

Here is a question, Can't a business owner ask anyone to leave whenever they want? Is the law even necessary?

[TMF]

Here is a question, Can't a business owner ask anyone to leave whenever they want? Is the law even necessary?

Exactly. Postings should be the same as "no shirt, no shoes no service."

[Fallguy]

So far that’s what happened to everyone I have heard of so far that was confronted by the Police after carrying past a sign at a business. (School’s a different story) So far no one on here has posted about being cited for carrying past a sign. Do you have a link to a story where it happened? I know I'm curious to know if its ever happened.

There have been two people charged with 39-17-1359 at the Memphis Airport, both were also charged with 39-17-109 (one as misdemeanor, the other as a felony). AFAIK neither case has been heard yet.

But I think this is a different situation than your average business that may be posted.

[Guest ab28]

Why fine someone five hundred bucks, or in this case, even have it on the books for those WITH permits? That is more expensive in some states than carrying WITHOUT a license! The less silly laws the better that apply to those carrying on a license/permit. A business in Alabama can put up a sign, but a licensee does not have to worry about some overzealous anti gun prosecutor slapping a fine on him. Heck you can even carry in schools down there. So should licensees in TN not be able to carry in schools either? I mean if you are willing to fine licensees 500 bucks over a sign then you are probably ok with the felony/misdemeanor charges for carrying in schools in TN.

It's retarded liberal BS, laws made by pencil pushers who have never been in a gunfight. I hate the impracticality of some of the laws in regards to self defense. Say, if 2 people were robbing a business, and I was near one, and the other was farther away, the most efficient thing would be to draw my pistol, shoot the guy closest to me in the head(instant fight stopper, and I don't have to worry about a wounded BG shooting me in the back while I am engaging other targets) then take out the second. I can't mess around with trying to be "humanitarian", winning gunfights is about efficiency and destroying the enemy as quickly as possible without getting shot yourself.

That was one good thing about Iraq, once you got engaged, they didn't care how you killed the enemy, long as you got it done with minimum casualties to your own side. All these rules and laws have no place once a gunfight starts. I'll do everything I can to not have to shoot someone, but if it gets to that point, I'd rather just get it done as fast as possible.

Edited May 20, 2012 by ab28

[TMF]

I hate the impracticality of some of the laws in regards to self defense. Say, if 2 people were robbing a business, and I was near one, and the other was farther away, the most efficient thing would be to draw my pistol, shoot the guy closest to me in the head(instant fight stopper, and I don't have to worry about a wounded BG shooting me in the back while I am engaging other targets) then take out the second. I can't mess around with trying to be "humanitarian", winning gunfights is about efficiency and destroying the enemy as quickly as possible without getting shot yourself.

The most efficient thing to do would be to let them take the money. If the business cared that much about preventing robbery they'd hire armed guards. Either way, I ain't getting in a gunfight over someone else's money.

Edited May 20, 2012 by TMF 18B

[Guest ab28]

The most efficient thing to do would be to let them take the money. If the business cared that much about preventing robbery they'd hire armed guards. Either way, I ain't getting in a gunfight over someone else's money.

I meant the danger of getting shot, not the money. I have been robbed before, and the response is lethal force. People on drugs do erratic things, they might decide to just shoot you for the hell of it. I'd rather just take them out and get it over with. They might kill someone later if I didn't, in a future robbery.

I consider robbers, muggers, ect dangerous terrorists, since they use the fear of violence to achieve their goals. So, they get dealt with the same. Anyone that mugs or robs me will get a distraction long enough to have me pull my weapon and put 5 rounds in them or so. I love my life too much to let it be decided at the whim of a crackhead for 20 bucks.

Once you get on crack or meth, you are no longer human, just a soulless husk. They would sell their own mom for another hit.

Edited May 20, 2012 by ab28

[TMF]

I meant the danger of getting shot, not the money. I have been robbed before, and the response is lethal force. People on drugs do erratic things, they might decide to just shoot you for the hell of it. I'd rather just take them out and get it over with. They might kill someone later if I didn't, in a future robbery.

I consider robbers, muggers, ect dangerous terrorists, since they use the fear of violence to achieve their goals. So, they get dealt with the same. Anyone that mugs or robs me will get a distraction long enough to have me pull my weapon and put 5 rounds in them or so. I love my life too much to let it be decided at the whim of a crackhead for 20 bucks.

Once you get on crack or meth, you are no longer human, just a soulless husk. They would sell their own mom for another hit.

If you ever end up having to shoot someone in self defense you should probably come here and delete posts like this one. I'm no DA, but that looks more like an attitude to dispense justice, not self defense. At a minimum a lawyer will most likely take everything from you when you are sued by the family.

[Guest ab28]

If you ever end up having to shoot someone in self defense you should probably come here and delete posts like this one. I'm no DA, but that looks more like an attitude to dispense justice, not self defense. At a minimum a lawyer will most likely take everything from you when you are sued by the family.

I'm a minimalist, I don't own anything. Some hiking gear, a 4 year old computer, a Glock, and a 23 year old station wagon with 240,000 miles on it.

I don't believe in consumerism or materialism. I can move out in 20 minutes, including taking my computer apart.

Edited May 20, 2012 by ab28

[R_Bert]

I'm a minimalist, I don't own anything. Some hiking gear, a 4 year old computer, a Glock, and a 23 year old station wagon with 240,000 miles on it.

I don't believe in consumerism or materialism. I can move out in 20 minutes, including taking my computer apart.

Heh. You must not be married. My wife has more crap than that just in the shower !