Open Carry triggers school lock-down -- Police say HCP holder did nothing wrong

[mikegideon]

Seeing as how most people have no clue about the nature of the TN open carry law, I think you're exactly right.

Huh? I think you may be misreading some folks.

[DRM]

Huh? I think you may be misreading some folks.

You think I'm misreading the general public's lack of knowledge about TN gun law? Or did you think I was talking about the handful of posters to this thread?

[mikegideon]

You think I'm misreading the general public's lack of knowledge about TN gun law? Or did you think I was talking about the handful of posters to this thread?

I thought you were talking about posters. Anyway, doesn't seem to matter that the guy was legal. Just matters that it was an excuse to go into red alert tactical panic mode.

[DRM]

I thought you were talking about posters. Anyway, doesn't seem to matter that the guy was legal. Just matters that it was an excuse to go into red alert tactical panic mode.

Differing opinions on the finer points of the law aside - I think the average poster is way more informed than the average citizen. WAAAAAAAY more informed.

You know, maybe incidents like this can help officials refine their policies and responses. I'd think there could be an approrpiate response somewhere between full panic mode and doing nothing.

[mikegideon]

Differing opinions on the finer points of the law aside - I think the average poster is way more informed than the average citizen. WAAAAAAAY more informed.

You know, maybe incidents like this can help officials refine their policies and responses. I'd think there could be an approrpiate response somewhere between full panic mode and doing nothing.

I agree. We "catch" a lot of folks these days, but we suck at catching the bad guys. In fact, I'm hoping we at least catch one more of the shoe bombers.

[Fallguy]

I don't know if this has already been hashed out, and please don't take this the wrong way. But the right to bear arms is covered in the 2nd amendment. I don't think that driving is covered in any amendment to the constitution. So it makes more sense to me that possession of a firearm is more in line with a right, and not a privilege like driving a car. Of course, we have limitations on our right to possess and carry a firearms, but that doesn't mean it should be "assumed you are in violation of the law" because you own/carry a firearm any more so than it can be "assumed you are in violation of the law" because you are behind the wheel of a car.

I agree with you....but the laws of the land do not...

[RobertNashville]

I thought you were talking about posters. Anyway, doesn't seem to matter that the guy was legal. Just matters that it was an excuse to go into red alert tactical panic mode.

Mike...I don't "like" the reaction of the people who called or the police or the school authorities either but I do have to ask...

Given that he was openly carrying and apparently "near" or "approaching" a schoolyard, is it really a surprise that someone would call the police?

And, what are the police and school officials supposed to do when the get a report of a "man with a gun approaching a school yard"? Maybe they could have done something "less" but what?

I would assume that their tactics have been well thought out and planned with the goal of minimizing any possible threat to the children and as such, almost certainly seems like an overreaction when, as in this case, the threat isn't a threat at all. I'm not sure, however, that it was wrong of them to assume there was a threat until they knew otherwise - in today's society after incidents all over the country of school shootings...what are the police/school supposed to do?

I've been around firearms for many, many years but I have to say; if I'm someplace and see someone with a firearm where I'm not expecting to see someone with a firearm and/or it seems out of place; my radar is going to go up and I'm going to wonder what his intentions are too (unless I know him of course) and I'm going to evaluate him until I'm sure he's one of the "good guys"...I may not call the police but I'm certainly going to keep an eye on him until I'm sure he isn't a threat.

Edited September 5, 2011 by RobertNashville

[mikegideon]

Mike...I don't "like" the reaction of the people who called or the police or the school authorities either but I do have to ask...

Given that he was openly carrying and apparently "near" or "approaching" a schoolyard, is it really a surprise that someone would call the police? I don't think it's surprising at all.

And, what are the police and school officials supposed to do when the get a report of a "man with a gun approaching a school yard"?

I mean really...in today's society after incidents all over the country of school shootings...what are the police/school supposed to do?

I've been around firearms since I was seven or eight years old (and that's more decades than I care to think about) but I have to say; if I'm someplace and see someone with a firearm where I'm not expecting to see someone with a firearm and/or it seems out of place; my radar is going to go up and I'm going to wonder what his intentions are too (unless I know him of course) and I'm going to evaluate him until I'm sure he's one of the "good guys"...I may not call the police but I'm certainly going to keep an eye on him until I'm sure he isn't a threat.

Well, we probably are armchair quarterbacking this. We weren't there to see it, but a false alarm IS a false alarm. Was there anything really threatening, or was it all over-reaction. I'm just tired of seeing folks running for cover somewhere every day. The guy was in a place where a significant part of the polulation is allowed to do just what he was doing. Either the law is written wrong, or the reaction was wrong.

Like I said earlier, if he would have stepped on school property, it would have been an immediate game changer.

[DaveTN]

Well, we probably are armchair quarterbacking this. We weren't there to see it, but a false alarm IS a false alarm. Was there anything really threatening, or was it all over-reaction. I'm just tired of seeing folks running for cover somewhere every day. The guy was in a place where a significant part of the polulation is allowed to do just what he was doing. Either the law is written wrong, or the reaction was wrong.

Like I said earlier, if he would have stepped on school property, it would have been an immediate game changer.

You don’t have time to make that call. When given advance warning you use it.

There have been so many school shootings that how Police react has changed. It’s no longer wait on back-up, secure the area, and try to make contact with the shooter. It’s been changed to; first Officers on the scene engage the shooter and kill him. They probably use the words “neutralize the threat†but you get the idea. Police Officers are putting their lives at risk because they know seconds count. They can’t be asked to do that if you want to stand around and wait for him to become active.

Open carry has consequences; if people don’t want to deal with them then they shouldn’t play stupid games.

The reaction was the right one. If you think that means the law needs to be changed you may get your wish if we have many more HCP holders like this guy.

Armchair quarterbacking is what we do.

[Guest capt usa]

I didn't see the description of the guy posted anywhere and I think the caller over reacted. Let me tell you why.

My boss drops his daughter off at that school every morning. He had seen this guy every morning that week walking down the road. We talked about it one day at work, was it real or an air soft gun to deter dogs while he walked.

Poor fellow has an arm in a complete cast with a support rod running from his waist to his arm. He's been wearing gym shorts and a t-shirt (it was really hot then). The guy had a bottle of water in his good hand (the other one is tied up) and has sweat stains down his back. The gun was visible every time he was seen, riding high on the hip (must have had on a stout belt).

My boss figured he has had surgery and instead of sitting around the house he's decided to exercise. Yeah he could have wore a longer shirt but if I were him I would have been shirtless, imagine getting dressed with your arm wrapped up like that. The caller was not seeing the whole picture as what it was and lost control.

The ones who suffered were the kids, they were in their covey for an hour and a half hiding from a walker (not the zombie kind).

[vontar]

And if I remember right, this guy managed to walk back home before police found him at his home right? The police must have had a good idea who he was to have found him after he got home.

I don't walk near a school, but the school has their runners run on the public side walks near my home were I go walking.

Trust me, I don't even get near the school zone carrying when I go for my walks. I walk a couple streets away from the school near my home, but the runners run about 2 miles or more away from the school at least near my home.

I would not want to OC as I know it would just draw unwanted attention.

I am sure if someone saw a gun all hell would break loose for a bit. No need to scare the sheep.

[TaurusPT111Pro]

Okay this has gone far enough.

I think we should try an idea I saw on youtube.... We should organize an open carry trash pick up to educate people about the HCP and the law abiding citizens who carry them....

I'm serious let's organize..... Major cities like Nashville, Boro, Goodlettsville, Memphis, etc....

[RobertNashville]

Okay this has gone far enough.

I think we should try an idea I saw on youtube.... We should organize an open carry trash pick up to educate people about the HCP and the law abiding citizens who carry them....

I'm serious let's organize..... Major cities like Nashville, Boro, Goodlettsville, Memphis, etc....

To what end, exactly? You already can open carry if you want to (doing so without exercising some common sense is where trouble usually happens). I'd say there are any number of firearm related issues that deserve attention and action more than "open carry".

What I can't figure out is why every so-called firearms enthusiast in Tennessee isn't a member of the TFA and the NRA because, especially with regards to the TFA, if you want to see real change in the laws then banning together in an issue driven organization is the most effective way to do so.

If the people who come to this board and complain about this posted property and that overreaction would expend the same amount of effort on real political action instead of just posting, we might actually see some significant improvement in the weapons laws in this state.

[mikegideon]

You don’t have time to make that call. When given advance warning you use it.

There have been so many school shootings that how Police react has changed. It’s no longer wait on back-up, secure the area, and try to make contact with the shooter. It’s been changed to; first Officers on the scene engage the shooter and kill him. They probably use the words “neutralize the threat” but you get the idea. Police Officers are putting their lives at risk because they know seconds count. They can’t be asked to do that if you want to stand around and wait for him to become active.

Open carry has consequences; if people don’t want to deal with them then they shouldn’t play stupid games.

The reaction was the right one. If you think that means the law needs to be changed you may get your wish if we have many more HCP holders like this guy.

Armchair quarterbacking is what we do.

You're right about the number. I was basing my opinion on what I've heard in the news. There has been a large number of shootings, larger than I thought. The guy taking a morning walk is outside the profile of the "average" school shooting, but I do understand the level of paranoia a little better.

[Guest nicemac]

Major cities like Nashville, Boro, Goodlettsville, Memphis, etc....

Goodlettsville–a major city?

[TaurusPT111Pro]

I'm just saying that maybe we should try to educate people more so this type of thing doesn't continue to happen. And yes the Goodlettsville/Rivergate area is a popular area as well as Hendersonville or Gallatin which is why I say they are major cities. I AM a member of the NRA and have been for some time.

[QuietDan]

Okay this has gone far enough.

I think we should try an idea I saw on youtube.... We should organize an open carry trash pick up to educate people about the HCP and the law abiding citizens who carry them....

I'm serious let's organize..... Major cities like Nashville, Boro, Goodlettsville, Memphis, etc....

What you're describing here is what's called a non-trivial operation. I'm thinking it can't just be done without a lot of planning.

First things first, you'd want to make sure of just exactly what you're trying to say with a direct action.

You'd probably want to coordinate with the . . . TFA (??) and even a local rep for the NRA well before any direct action. You certainly would want to ensure that you're not stomping on a larger agenda and undo something that everyone's worked hard for, oh, campus carry, better posting regs, whatever.

There are people who set up this type of direct action for a living. Unfortunately, a lot of the true professionals are very liberal; you might have to really look around for an event coordinator that's got good solid conservative leanings. You might also want to be prepared for . . . organized opposition. The TFA and the NRA will probably know who the good guys are.

Also, you'd certainly want to start out with a city where the administration, a couple of city councilmen or the Mayor AND the chief of police understands what you're trying to accomplish. If not totally on board, at least leaning in your direction and not working against you. Having a State Senator or State Representative on board would be invaluable. You'd be surprised at how much good comes from just discussing things like this in a sensible manner on an open forum. A lot of people read this forum.

You would want to carefully select the stretch of road. You'd actually want to actually pick up trash, preferably bags and bags of it, complete with the used hypodermics and the discarded tires and sofas in the crummy neighborhood. Someplace that's already acknowledged to be a problem. Some street with a lot of traffic volume.

It wouldn't hurt to have a journalist on board early that understands what you're trying to say and do. I'm thinking you all already have some sort of relationship with Brian Haas. You'd also want some of your own folks that can shoot some good video, not just jumpy monkey-cam cell phone video.

You'd also want to ensure that your membership or those who plan on attending are thoroughly on board with the goals of the direct action. That gets right on down to attitude, demeanor, look and dress. One pickup truck with the stars and bars, one too many guys dressed in Army DCU pants, one too many AK-47 pistols strapped diagonally across the chest and any good you may try to accomplish would literally blow up in your face. Some sort of uniform, even a red, white and blue bandana or a tie or a printed t-shirt helps as well. You don't want some crazy showing up and grandstanding and steal your event away. There are people who do this, you know. What's that guys name kwiknu (??). How well would something like this go if he were to show up claiming to be a part of the group, act all crazy-like and scare the horses?

Also, you get only one shot to do something like this right. Do it right in one city, and you could get most of the publicity that you'd ever need and get most of the effect you're looking for, from one event. Done right, and other cities might ask you to come!

I don't want to sound negative or like a nervous nellie or seeing a problem behind every tree, but without a good plan . . . . bad news.

Again, it is a non-trivial operation.

Edited September 7, 2011 by QuietDan

[TaurusPT111Pro]

Perhaps I should start a new thread about this and perhaps get other members help in organizing such a thing.

[QuietDan]

Perhaps I should start a new thread about this and perhaps get other members help in organizing such a thing.

I bet TGO Dave would have an opinion about this. Clearly, he's an old hand at stuff like this.

[RobertNashville]

Perhaps I should start a new thread about this and perhaps get other members help in organizing such a thing.

Actually; this general subject (conducting some type of organized protest/public action) has been discussed at length. One thread that comes to mind is a thread stated by DRM last January - DRM has several posts in this thread (LINK: http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/general-off-topic/52280-organizing-tn-open-carry-day.html ).

I'm not opposed to promoting "open carry" and/or of educating the general public but, I do think such public acts can go the wrong way. And, as I said before, I think (and this is just my opinion of course) that there are several more "important" firearm/weapon related issues that need the attention and involvement of the pro-firearm community than the issue of "open carry" (especially since we already can open carry).

[Guest WingMan380]

Or are you aware of a single case of a school being attacked by a lone man on foot near a school with a gun in plain sight on his belt?

Totally agree!!! Don't think you are trying to start either.

[Guest WingMan380]

I wonder if QuietDan had any idea that posting this news story was going to cause such an outflow of opinions?

I OC some, however I am selective where I do it and not one time have I caused a panic and uproar by doing so. I was in a national box store once and was OCing and I had a little kid do a double take at my right hip but other than that no one has had a heart attack and died seeing my pistol, no cops have been called, no one has questioned my motive or credentials to carry openly a weapon. I think some of it may be due to the fact that no matter if I OC or CC, I carry and conduct myself in a normal non-threatening manner. I don't walk around like a badass with a "look at me I have a gun" attitude. I act the same with or with out a weapon and open or conceled. Having said all of that, would I OC walking past a school, no, however my weapon is with me every morning as I drop my kids off at school.

JMHO

[JayC]

Dan,

As somebody who experience organizing volunteer events and coordinates a 40-50 person volunteer group, you're making it a lot hard than it needs to be.

Start small and grow from there... call the public works director for a fairly pro-gun rural county (Say Wilson for example) and ask them for a suggestion on a stretch of road they'd like to see your group clean up. Ask them for any suggestions they have how to do it, any safety equipment which is required (say orange vests for example) take notes. Don't even bother mentioning it's some form of HCP group, and never use the word protest

Go on to a couple pro-firearm boards post about the event, include when, and where you're meeting, suggested dress code... etc...

The morning of the event call the local Sherrif's office ask for the shift supervisor and explain to them you've got a group of volunteers who are going out to clean road X, that section of road was suggested by the public works director, and some of the members have HCP you just wanted him to be aware in case they get any calls...

Then go clean up the road in question... take a lot of internal pictures post them on a facebook group page and ask your volunteers to do the same.

Don't call the press, they'll find you on their own, hopefully after you have a few of these (positive) events under your belt... Once you get all the kinks worked out, then you can make the decision as a group to move to more 'visible' locations.

You're talking about 6 to 10 man hours to coordinate the entire thing, plus whatever time you're on site picking up trash.

It's just not the 'professional' level task you're describing anybody who manages a business would be able to get this done in a short period of time.

IMHO the best approach here is to focus on cleaning up trash and not trying to a do a 'protest'.

What you're describing here is what's called a non-trivial operation. I'm thinking it can't just be done without a lot of planning.

First things first, you'd want to make sure of just exactly what you're trying to say with a direct action.

You'd probably want to coordinate with the . . . TFA (??) and even a local rep for the NRA well before any direct action. You certainly would want to ensure that you're not stomping on a larger agenda and undo something that everyone's worked hard for, oh, campus carry, better posting regs, whatever.

There are people who set up this type of direct action for a living. Unfortunately, a lot of the true professionals are very liberal; you might have to really look around for an event coordinator that's got good solid conservative leanings. You might also want to be prepared for . . . organized opposition. The TFA and the NRA will probably know who the good guys are.

Also, you'd certainly want to start out with a city where the administration, a couple of city councilmen or the Mayor AND the chief of police understands what you're trying to accomplish. If not totally on board, at least leaning in your direction and not working against you. Having a State Senator or State Representative on board would be invaluable. You'd be surprised at how much good comes from just discussing things like this in a sensible manner on an open forum. A lot of people read this forum.

You would want to carefully select the stretch of road. You'd actually want to actually pick up trash, preferably bags and bags of it, complete with the used hypodermics and the discarded tires and sofas in the crummy neighborhood. Someplace that's already acknowledged to be a problem. Some street with a lot of traffic volume.

It wouldn't hurt to have a journalist on board early that understands what you're trying to say and do. I'm thinking you all already have some sort of relationship with Brian Haas. You'd also want some of your own folks that can shoot some good video, not just jumpy monkey-cam cell phone video.

You'd also want to ensure that your membership or those who plan on attending are thoroughly on board with the goals of the direct action. That gets right on down to attitude, demeanor, look and dress. One pickup truck with the stars and bars, one too many guys dressed in Army DCU pants, one too many AK-47 pistols strapped diagonally across the chest and any good you may try to accomplish would literally blow up in your face. Some sort of uniform, even a red, white and blue bandana or a tie or a printed t-shirt helps as well. You don't want some crazy showing up and grandstanding and steal your event away. There are people who do this, you know. What's that guys name kwiknu (??). How well would something like this go if he were to show up claiming to be a part of the group, act all crazy-like and scare the horses?

Also, you get only one shot to do something like this right. Do it right in one city, and you could get most of the publicity that you'd ever need and get most of the effect you're looking for, from one event. Done right, and other cities might ask you to come!

I don't want to sound negative or like a nervous nellie or seeing a problem behind every tree, but without a good plan . . . . bad news.

Again, it is a non-trivial operation.

Edited September 8, 2011 by JayC

[QuietDan]

Dan,

As somebody who experience organizing volunteer events and coordinates a 40-50 person volunteer group, you're making it a lot hard than it needs to be.

Start small and grow from there... call the public works director for a fairly pro-gun rural county (Say Wilson for example) and ask them for a suggestion on a stretch of road they'd like to see your group clean up. Ask them for any suggestions they have how to do it, any safety equipment which is required (say orange vests for example) take notes. Don't even bother mentioning it's some form of HCP group, and never use the word protest

Go on to a couple pro-firearm boards post about the event, include when, and where you're meeting, suggested dress code... etc...

The morning of the event call the local Sherrif's office ask for the shift supervisor and explain to them you've got a group of volunteers who are going out to clean road X, that section of road was suggested by the public works director, and some of the members have HCP you just wanted him to be aware in case they get any calls...

Then go clean up the road in question... take a lot of internal pictures post them on a facebook group page and ask your volunteers to do the same.

Don't call the press, they'll find you on their own, hopefully after you have a few of these (positive) events under your belt... Once you get all the kinks worked out, then you can make the decision as a group to move to more 'visible' locations.

You're talking about 6 to 10 man hours to coordinate the entire thing, plus whatever time you're on site picking up trash.

It's just not the 'professional' level task you're describing anybody who manages a business would be able to get this done in a short period of time.

IMHO the best approach here is to focus on cleaning up trash and not trying to a do a 'protest'.

Jay,

Thank you very much! "You may be right, I may be crazy . . . " (it's a song).

Your approach would certainly be effective. I think part of it depends on whether you want to go small, medium or large. . . it kind of depends on what people are willing to do. You are probably right, starting small (build on the base laid previously) and taking it from there might be the way to go.

Agree also, the 'service to the community' side versus the 'protest' side is certainly the way to go.

At the very least, we're talking about it again. It's good to see that there are folks on the group who've been down this path, that there have been events like this in the past and that those experienced hands are willing to get involved again, and that there are new folks that are willing, able and expert enough to help.

I have to admit, I tried to describe an extreme situation, kind of a "going large" and what all the pitfalls could possibly be. Some of it probably comes from military training. However, it's not like we're invading a small country or anything!

[Guest kirkosaurus]

Open carrying a gun around a school while kids are going to school is ignorant.

However, I completely support the guy's right to OC, but I think it was poor judgement to do it right next to school property right in the middle of everyone arriving.

Having a gunman walking towards a school and failing to act would be stupid.

95% of the fault here is they guy openly carrying and likely in a area where common sense would have told him not to do so.

Having said all of that, would I OC walking past a school, no, however my weapon is with me every morning as I drop my kids off at school.

It seems that folks keep embellishing this story as it goes along, not reading the story and just going off the comments of others.

No where in the story does it state anything about the man walking past the school or right next to the school property or toward the school. According to all news accounts the man was simply walking on the same street as the school. For all we know the guy could have been half a mile from the school.

For anyone not familiar with the school it sits on the corner of Rocky Fork Rd and Poplar Wood. It is surrounded by at least 4 other streets, some of them with crossing guards. Poplar Wood goes all the way from Rocky Fork Rd. to Almaville Rd. (Google Map it to get the idea). The man lives in the neighborhood, off of/near the Poplar Wood. Why should he change the way he carries just because there is a school in the neighborhood? The school is only a few years old. The guy probably lived there before the school was even built.

Some of you guys should be ashamed of yourselves. This is the type stuff that the anti-gun Bradyesque people do.

Edited September 8, 2011 by kirkosaurus