Open Carry triggers school lock-down -- Police say HCP holder did nothing wrong

[RobertNashville]

There were probably people they that had guns. If you have an HCP you can carry while picking up or dropping off your kids. Just because they aren’t openly displayed doesn’t mean they aren’t there.

I drive right through two school zones every day…. Armed.

Good point and I drive through one, myself. However, when I wrote that, I was thinking, without saying so in my statement, that someone wanting to shoot up a school is probably going to do it inside.

Even if there are people outside who have their legally carried firearms in the car, a lot of kids and/or teachers could die before someone sitting outside in a car even realized there was a problem.

[DRM]

I'm with Mike.357and DaveTn. What would you want them to do, nothing?

I think locking the school down was stupid.

[mikegideon]

I think locking the school down was stupid.

Yep. Irrational fear of guns, plain and simple.

[Guest bkelm18]

I think locking the school down was stupid.

Yep. Irrational fear of guns, plain and simple.

Yeah, who cares about protecting children anyway.

[DaveTN]

Yep. Irrational fear of guns, plain and simple.

Mike, Teachers and school administrators don’t have the luxury of conducting an investigation. They prepare for the worst case scenario. The best case scenario is that it’s an HCP holder; the worst case scenario is that it’s a crazy person getting ready to become an active shooter in a school.

What decision would you make in those couple of minutes you have to decide?

Would you prepare for the worst or would you worry about putting the pro-gun community’s panties in a bunch?

We carry deadly weapons because we prepare for the worst. Why would it be considered stupid for someone else to do the same? Having a gunman walking towards a school and failing to act would be stupid.

[mikegideon]

Yeah, who cares about protecting children anyway.

Are you kidding? If he had even stepped one foot on the property, then lock it down. That's why they have these stupid "gun free" zones to begin with.

[Fallguy]

Yeah, who cares about protecting children anyway.

Seems like I've heard that anti-s say something similliar....we need to ban all guns...it's for the children.

I'm all for keeping kids safe, and I don't necessarly fault the teachers in this case, it's just seems the slightest bleep on the screen causes the most major reaction possible.....not only at schools, but everywhere...

A sad thing about this is...it sort of renforces the idea in kids...an man with a gun is bad.... I mean do you think any of them were told later the guy checked out ok?

[mikegideon]

Seems like I've heard that anti-s say something similliar....we need to ban all guns...it's for the children.

I'm all for keeping kids safe, and I don't necessarly fault the teachers in this case, it's just seems the slightest bleep on the screen causes the most major reaction possible.....not only at schools, but everywhere...

A sad thing about this is...it sort of renforces the idea in kids...an man with a gun is bad.... I mean do you think any of them were told later the guy checked out ok?

It's all good. Everybody got on TV.

[DRM]

What decision would you make in those couple of minutes you have to decide?

I wouldn't have locked the school down.

Or are you aware of a single case of a school being attacked by a lone man on foot near a school with a gun in plain sight on his belt?

[DRM]

A sad thing about this is...it sort of renforces the idea in kids...an man with a gun is bad.... I mean do you think any of them were told later the guy checked out ok?

It's not sad, it's downright disgusting, and is what I don't like about what happened.

[DaveTN]

Or are you aware of a single case of a school being attacked by a lone man on foot near a school with a gun in plain sight on his belt?

You have got to be kidding me. You are just trying to start now. We are having a serious discussion.

[DRM]

You have got to be kidding me. You are just trying to start now. We are having a serious discussion.

If you don't want to discuss opinions that differ from yours, just say so. Trying to be dismissive doesn't work too well with me, sorry.

[Guest bkelm18]

Seems like I've heard that anti-s say something similliar....we need to ban all guns...it's for the children.

I'm all for keeping kids safe, and I don't necessarly fault the teachers in this case, it's just seems the slightest bleep on the screen causes the most major reaction possible.....not only at schools, but everywhere...

A sad thing about this is...it sort of renforces the idea in kids...an man with a gun is bad.... I mean do you think any of them were told later the guy checked out ok?

If it were me, I wouldn't give a flip about some internet armchair quarterbacks. Let's say I lock the school down after a report of someone with a firearm walking towards school grounds. That's the only report I got. I've got to decide right NOW what to do. If it's a person with an HCP out for a stroll and I'm wrong, I waste some peoples' time and I make some folks on the internet weep about "yesteryear". If it's a gunman and I'm wrong and I don't lock it down, countless numbers of people/children could die and I'll be held accountable for not reacting. I'll err on the side of caution.

Edited September 5, 2011 by bkelm18

[RobertNashville]

I wouldn't have locked the school down.

Or are you aware of a single case of a school being attacked by a lone man on foot near a school with a gun in plain sight on his belt?

I don't know of any but then again, I wasn't aware of fertilizer being used as a bomb to bring down a government building until it happened. I'll admit, thugs and those planning murder don't usually openly carry their weapons but can anyone afford to take that chance today? If the police and school had done nothing and this guy was gunning for his wife or someone he was pissed off at and actually got to the school and shot someone, the outcry from everyone (including you I would bet) would be ear piercing about how stupid and incompetent the school and police were.

It used to be no big deal; not even worth mentioning if someone went to school with a gun in their trunk...I did so when I was going straight from school to go hunting rabbits/pheasant...the worst things most kids did was try to sneak a smoke. My dad had several guns in the house and they weren't trigger locked....that was the case with most kids when I was growing up yet no kid went to school and shot up the place.

For me, the point of this story - what this story really illustrates is where our society is today. It's not just the anti-gun nuts who are immediately afraid and go off the deep end when they see someone minding their own business with a gun in a holster plainly visible; it's also that we have experienced of schools being targets and people getting killed so yes, the police and schools do have to react differently today than they would have or needed to 30 years ago.

Of course...as I recall; you are all for open carry...even wanted to organize some type of formal protest in support of open carry so maybe that has something to do with you blaming the school/police. This whole episode would never have happened if the man in question has been carrying concealed but he was openly carrying and it caused a problem...if there was an overreaction on the part of the school/police then is was primarily caused by poor judgment on the part of this guy openly carrying.

Edited September 5, 2011 by RobertNashville

[DRM]

If it were me, I wouldn't give a flip about some internet armchair quarterbacks. Let's say I lock the school down after a report of someone with a firearm walking towards school grounds. That's the only report I got. I've got to decide right NOW what to do. If it's a person with an HCP out for a stroll and I'm wrong, I waste some peoples' time and I make some folks on the internet weep about "yesteryear". If it's a gunman and I'm wrong and I don't lock it down, countless numbers of people/children could die and I'll be held accountable for not reacting. I'll err on the side of caution.

Perfectly logical.

Let's also go ahead and ban all guns anywhere near schools, right? I mean - the benefits outweigh everything else, right?

Shoot, let's just ban guns - you know... because of the benefits.

[RobertNashville]

Perfectly logical.

Let's also go ahead and ban all guns anywhere near schools, right? I mean - the benefits outweigh everything else, right?

Shoot, let's just ban guns - you know... because of the benefits.

Maybe I"m wrong but somehow I doubt that you can't see the logic of bkelm18's statement...so what is it then; with the rain outside you've nothing else to do but argue with people???

95% of the fault here is they guy openly carrying and likely in a area where common sense would have told him not to do so.

5% of the fault is a few people reacting; and in hindsight overrating, to seeing a "man with a gun"; all of which could have been avoided had the man concealed.

[DRM]

Of course...as I recall; you are all for open carry...even wanted to organize some type of formal protest in support of open carry so maybe that has something to do with you blaming the school/police.

Nice. You feel better after that little misrepresentation?

I'm not "blaming" anyone - I simple feel like they over-reacted.

This whole episode would never have happened if the man in question has been carrying concealed but he was openly carrying and it caused a problem...if there was an overreaction on the part of the school/police then is was primarily caused by poor judgment on the part of this guy openly carrying.

Clearly - the guy who did nothing wrong, did something wrong... right?

[Guest Joshua8200]

It isn't the same.

There is no law that says driving itself is illegal and that having a license makes it ok. It is just required to have a license.

There is a law that says possesion of a firearm is illegal. Then there is another law that provides a defense against it.

So if you are in possesion of a firearm, it can be assumed you are in violation of the law until you show your permit. But if you are driving there is no law you are presumed to be breaking to give reason for a stop.

Now in states were carry is legal without a permit.....then mere possesion of a firearm is not a reason to stop someone, but it's not like that in TN...

I don't know if this has already been hashed out, and please don't take this the wrong way. But the right to bear arms is covered in the 2nd amendment. I don't think that driving is covered in any amendment to the constitution. So it makes more sense to me that possession of a firearm is more in line with a right, and not a privilege like driving a car. Of course, we have limitations on our right to possess and carry a firearms, but that doesn't mean it should be "assumed you are in violation of the law" because you own/carry a firearm any more so than it can be "assumed you are in violation of the law" because you are behind the wheel of a car.

[DRM]

Maybe I"m wrong but somehow I doubt that you can't see the logic of bkelm18's statement...so what is it then; with the rain outside you've nothing else to do but argue with people???

Dear Robert - grow up and try to focus. The personal side jabs are really immature.

What I was pointing out is that his mentality - and many others here - is the start of the slippery slope to losing freedoms for the sake of "safety". Does that make it an unfair trade? Maybe not, maybe so. But it is irresponsible to brush situations off like this by assigning some arbitrary 95% of blame to the guy who did nothing illegal.

95% of the fault here is they guy openly carrying and likely in a area where common sense would have told him not to do so.

5% of the fault is a few people reacting; and in hindsight overrating, to seeing a "man with a gun"; all of which could have been avoided had the man concealed.

Odd how the guy who did nothing wrong is 95% wrong, and the people irrationally scared with no actual basis for that fear as only 5% wrong.

I prefer not to coddle and promote flawed perceptions and assumptions that take away our rights. If you want to demonize me for that view - oh well, have at it.

[RobertNashville]

I have been carrying since I got my permit about a month and a half ago, and I still have yet to see anyone carrying, either open or concealed. Anyone got any tips for scoping it out? I want to see a fellow citizen packing heat!

Come to the next Nashville chapter meeting of the Tennessee Firearms Association (September 20th) Tennessee Firearms Association | Welcome

[RobertNashville]

Dear Robert - grow up and try to focus. The personal side jabs are really immature.

Dear DRM, maybe you need to look in the mirror...just saying.

What I was pointing out is that his mentality - and many others here - is the start of the slippery slope to losing freedoms for the sake of "safety". Does that make it an unfair trade? Maybe not, maybe so. But it is irresponsible to brush situations off like this by assigning some arbitrary 95% of blame to the guy who did nothing illegal.

Odd how the guy who did nothing wrong is 95% wrong, and the people irrationally scared with no actual basis for that fear as only 5% wrong.

I prefer not to coddle and promote flawed perceptions and assumptions that take away our rights. If you want to demonize me for that view - oh well, have at it.

No one is coddling anything...no one is taking away anyone's rights and no one is demonizing you.

Armchair quarterbacking is so rewarding isn't it! How wonderful that you can sit in front of you PC on a rainy Monday morning and wax eloquently about how people had no "actual basis for their fear"...yeah...real easy to do that NOW after you have all the facts in front you.

No one said nor am I saying that the guy did anything "wrong"...he did nothing illegal...the problem is that you can be 100% in the "right" and still be 100% stupid.

I occasionally open carry but I don't open carry everywhere and I certainly don't openly carry while I'm out walking my neighborhood and I especially don't open carry when I'm near the elementary school that is only a few hundred feet from my house - I don't carry openly then because it would be STUPID to do so...this guy didn't do anything wrong; he was just stupid...the only thing more stupid is blaming the school and the police for doing their jobs.

I don't care what percentage you like, the entire situation could have been easily avoided had the guy carried concealed. I'm sorry if that simple truth escapes you.

By the way; have you had your march on the state capitol yet? You know...the one you wanted to do back in January for your "TN Open Carry Day" protest? How did that work out for the cause of open carry???

Edited September 5, 2011 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

I don't know if this has already been hashed out, and please don't take this the wrong way. But the right to bear arms is covered in the 2nd amendment. I don't think that driving is covered in any amendment to the constitution. So it makes more sense to me that possession of a firearm is more in line with a right, and not a privilege like driving a car. Of course, we have limitations on our right to possess and carry a firearms, but that doesn't mean it should be "assumed you are in violation of the law" because you own/carry a firearm any more so than it can be "assumed you are in violation of the law" because you are behind the wheel of a car.

You are right the right to keep and bear arms IS a right, recognized and guaranteed (but not "created) by the Constitution. Unfortunately, the United States today simply isn't fully living under the Constitution - if it were a WHOLE lot of things would be different.

Today, we live under a lot of federal and state and even local laws that abridge our rights and we've (and prior) generations have let that happen...the only way to change it, short of another violent revolution, is to elect representatives at all levels of government that understand those principles and will work to undo the damage done.

Whether or not it's too late...whether or not there are enough men and women out there who have the courage to do what has to be done (and will run for office); that's another question.

[Guest bkelm18]

Of course, we have limitations on our right to possess and carry a firearms, but that doesn't mean it should be "assumed you are in violation of the law" because you own/carry a firearm any more so than it can be "assumed you are in violation of the law" because you are behind the wheel of a car.

Yes, that is how it should be, but we can't go about living the laws that should be. Unfortunately in TN, the act of carrying a firearm is illegal, plain and simple.

[mikegideon]

Yes, that is how it should be, but we can't go about living the laws that should be. Unfortunately in TN, the act of carrying a firearm is illegal, plain and simple.

Not so sure it's relavent tho. I'm thinking this could have just as easily happened in Kentucky.

[DRM]

Not so sure it's relavent tho. I'm thinking this could have just as easily happened in Kentucky.

Seeing as how most people have no clue about the nature of the TN open carry law, I think you're exactly right.