Open Carry triggers school lock-down -- Police say HCP holder did nothing wrong

[durtyzulu]

It's a lot like the kid with an orange mohawk, neck tattoos and 5lbs of metal stuck thru his face complaining that he can't figure out why people give him a hard time. I don't care if or how you choose to carry a handgun. Just don't act blindsided if you're carrying openly and some chick who voted obama and thinks all she ever needs to know is coming from the piece of plastic fruit stuck to her face, freaks and calls the police.

[Guest HankRearden]

Just because you can do something legally doesn't always mean you should.

I can legally walk out my back door in my neighborhood and fire my pistol/rifle/shotgun or whatever as long as I have a safe backstop but I shouldn't get all surprised and indignant when my neighbors call the police.

I can legally set my truck on fire in my yard but it should not be a surprise when the fire department shows up to put it out.

If I walk up the road by the school with my pistol exposed I am perfectly legal and can do it. Even if the kids are out playing I can do it. But just because I can doesn't mean I should. What would be the point? So I can "educate" these people? So I can excite people to the point of calling the police so I can "educate" the police when they arrive?

With your HCP there comes an unwritten expectation and I believe that means don't do stupid stuff just because you can. Believe it or not, these types of things do not further your cause nor do they leave anyone with a favorable impression of gun owners as a whole.

[Guest WingMan380]

No where in the story does it state anything about the man walking past the school or right next to the school property or toward the school. According to all news accounts the man was simply walking on the same street as the school. For all we know the guy could have been half a mile from the school.

I beg to differ.

From the article in the OP:

"A man spotted this morning carrying a gun near Stewarts Creek schools in Smyrna was taking his morning walk and broke no laws, Sheriff Robert Arnold said.

Two parents and a crossing guard first saw the man walking along Poplar Wood Road between 7 and 7:30 and reported to a school resource office he was carrying a flashlight and gun on his hip, the sheriff said."

So how far away are the crossing guards for the school if they see the guy totin? If he was "for all we know" (as you said) a half mile away then them parents and crossing guard have damn good eye sight!!

FYI - There was nothing in my post, that you felt the need to quote, that I am ashamed of. Take the time to fully read the post before you try to insult me!

[hornett22]

Bowing down to political correctness ,tucking tail,and worrying about peoples feelings are what have gotten us regulated by all these silly gun laws in the first place. And Crime is worse than it's ever been.

I'm all for open carry and personal choice.

If feelings are that important,Canada isn't that far away and they have plenty of room.

[RobertNashville]

Bowing down to political correctness ,tucking tail,and worrying about peoples feelings are what have gotten us regulated by all these silly gun laws in the first place...

And acting stupidly...openly carrying without regard to where you are/when you are/who will see you is what causes school lockdowns and previously "un-posted" properties to be posted against carrying at all - it harms the entire HCP community.

At least as I understand the Tennessee constitution, carrying a firearm at all (openly or concealed) is a regulated PRIVILEGE in this state; we can complain about that all we want but unless or until the constitution is changed; that's the way it is. When an HCP holder refuses to to use discretion; acts stupidly (i.e. Leonard E.); and/or does other things that unnecessarily causes problems it does NOT help the cause of improving firearm-related laws in this state.

Being intelligent about how and where we carry is not about succumbing to "political correctness"; it's about being politically smart. There is also nothing wrong with deciding to not unnecessarily offend people and that's true whether we are discussing "firearms" or just life and living around other people in general.

[Guest bkelm18]

And acting stupidly...openly carrying without regard to where you are/when you are/who will see you is what causes school lockdowns and previously "un-posted" properties to be posted against carrying at all - it harms the entire HCP community.

At least as I understand the Tennessee constitution, carrying a firearm at all (openly or concealed) is a regulated PRIVILEGE in this state; we can complain about that all we want but unless or until the constitution is changed; that's the way it is. When an HCP holder refuses to to use discretion; acts stupidly (i.e. Leonard E.); and/or does other things that unnecessarily causes problems it does NOT help the cause of improving firearm-related laws in this state.

Being intelligent about how and where we carry is not about succumbing to "political correctness"; it's about being politically smart. There is also nothing wrong with deciding to not unnecessarily offend people and that's true whether we are discussing "firearms" or just life and living around other people in general.

+1

[Guest 270win]

In some states, you can legally carry in schools with a license. No way would I dare openly carry a gun in those states on school property. If you do not conceal well in one of those states and someone sees your gun on school property, you can bet the police will be called. Now off the property it is a judgment call I guess. You have to realize the nature of the people that run these schools are bed wetters and the reason why we have these stupid laws in a lot of states that folks can't even carry guns on school property. The laws make no sense, they are based on pure emotion.

[Guest Pig957]

These people were so concerned that they "reported to a school resource office" instead of the police. What a bunch of idots.

[Guest Pig957]

And acting stupidly...openly carrying without regard to where you are/when you are/who will see you is what causes school lockdowns and previously "un-posted" properties to be posted against carrying at all - it harms the entire HCP community.

At least as I understand the Tennessee constitution, carrying a firearm at all (openly or concealed) is a regulated PRIVILEGE in this state; we can complain about that all we want but unless or until the constitution is changed; that's the way it is. When an HCP holder refuses to to use discretion; acts stupidly (i.e. Leonard E.); and/or does other things that unnecessarily causes problems it does NOT help the cause of improving firearm-related laws in this state.

Being intelligent about how and where we carry is not about succumbing to "political correctness"; it's about being politically smart. There is also nothing wrong with deciding to not unnecessarily offend people and that's true whether we are discussing "firearms" or just life and living around other people in general.

It is this kind of thought that hurts the firearm community. I can not speak of the Tennessee constitution, but the U.S. Constitution gives me the RIGHT not PRIVILEGE to bear arms and the Indiana Constitution does so as well! Unfortunately, liberal thinking like this has put restrictions on that right.

[RobertNashville]

It is this kind of thought that hurts the firearm community. I can not speak of the Tennessee constitution, but the U.S. Constitution gives me the RIGHT not PRIVILEGE to bear arms and the Indiana Constitution does so as well! Unfortunately, liberal thinking like this has put restrictions on that right.

I really don't want to get into a "right" vs "privilege" argument - this really isn't a matter of "thought" or what I "think" nor was I talking about the U.S. Constitution - it's a matter of what is and is not legal under current Tennessee law.

In Tennesee; per the Tennessee constitution, while it recognizes the right to have "arms", the legislature has the specific constitutional authority to regulate the wearing of arms and they have so regulated. That is why I said that bearing arms in Tennessee is a regulated privilege, not a right.

Perhaps "privilege" is the wrong word to use; I don't know. I do know that we can quibble and argue about it all day long and but arguing will not change the simple fact that it is illegal in Tennessee to "go armed", either openly or concealed unless one has a Handgun Carry Permit and only so long as the person is not carrying in a prohibited location (prohibited either by specific statute or by properly posting, etc.)...arguing that it is a "right", not a "privilege" or something in between those two words will not keep you from being arrested; keep you from being convicted nor keep you from doing jail time if you carry in a manner or in a location that is prohibited by statute.

I agree that the U.S. Constitution says that keeping and bearing arms is a "right" but as a matter of practically, there are "arms" related laws that we must live under if we intend to be "law-abiding citizens"; recognizing that is not "harmful to the firearm community" it's just pragmatic.

P.S. I see no reason why you want feel the need to insult by insinuating that my statements are "liberal thinking"

Edited September 9, 2011 by RobertNashville

[Guest bkelm18]

I really don't want to get into a "right" vs "privilege" argument - this really isn't a matter of "thought" or what I "think" nor was I talking about the U.S. Constitution - it's a matter of what is and is not legal under current Tennessee law.

In Tennesee; per the Tennessee constitution, while it recognizes the right to have "arms", the legislature has the specific constitutional authority to regulate the wearing of arms and they have so regulated. That is why I said that bearing arms in Tennessee is a regulated privilege, not a right.

Perhaps "privilege" is the wrong word to use; I don't know. I do know that we can quibble and argue about it all day long and but arguing will not change the simple fact that it is illegal in Tennessee to "go armed", either openly or concealed unless one has a Handgun Carry Permit and only so long as the person is not carrying in a prohibited location (prohibited either by specific statute or by properly posting, etc.)...arguing that it is a "right", not a "privilege" or something in between those two words will not keep you from being arrested; keep you from being convicted nor keep you from doing jail time if you carry in a manner or in a location that is prohibited by statute.

I agree that the U.S. Constitution says that keeping and bearing arms is a "right" but as a matter of practically, there are "arms" related laws that we must live under if we intend to be "law-abiding citizens"; recognizing that is not "harmful to the firearm community" it's just pragmatic.

Very well put. We all say and believe we have the right to keep and bear arms, but the laws of today simply do not agree.

[hornett22]

And acting stupidly...openly carrying without regard to where you are/when you are/who will see you is what causes school lockdowns and previously "un-posted" properties to be posted against carrying at all - it harms the entire HCP community.

At least as I understand the Tennessee constitution, carrying a firearm at all (openly or concealed) is a regulated PRIVILEGE in this state; we can complain about that all we want but unless or until the constitution is changed; that's the way it is. When an HCP holder refuses to to use discretion; acts stupidly (i.e. Leonard E.); and/or does other things that unnecessarily causes problems it does NOT help the cause of improving firearm-related laws in this state.

Being intelligent about how and where we carry is not about succumbing to "political correctness"; it's about being politically smart. There is also nothing wrong with deciding to not unnecessarily offend people and that's true whether we are discussing "firearms" or just life and living around other people in general.

you are entitled to your opinion as well as I. I still disagree.

[Guest kirkosaurus]

I beg to differ.

From the article in the OP:

"A man spotted this morning carrying a gun near Stewarts Creek schools in Smyrna was taking his morning walk and broke no laws, Sheriff Robert Arnold said.

Two parents and a crossing guard first saw the man walking along Poplar Wood Road between 7 and 7:30 and reported to a school resource office he was carrying a flashlight and gun on his hip, the sheriff said."

So how far away are the crossing guards for the school if they see the guy totin? If he was "for all we know" (as you said) a half mile away then them parents and crossing guard have damn good eye sight!!

FYI - There was nothing in my post, that you felt the need to quote, that I am ashamed of. Take the time to fully read the post before you try to insult me!

Hey Einstein, read my post again:

For anyone not familiar with the school it sits on the corner of Rocky Fork Rd and Poplar Wood. It is surrounded by at least 4 other streets, some of them with crossing guards. Poplar Wood goes all the way from Rocky Fork Rd. to Almaville Rd. (Google Map it to get the idea). The man lives in the neighborhood, off of/near the Poplar Wood.

Some of the crossings with guards are not on or at the entrance of the school property but somewhat away from it.

Again, my post is correct:

No where in the story does it state anything about the man walking past the school or right next to the school property or toward the school.

I didn't deny he was "near" the school. I said he wasn't walking past the school (like you said), next to the school property or "toward" the school as quoted but several commenters.

Learn to read my post before you insult me. You fail.

Edited September 10, 2011 by kirkosaurus

[Guest kirkosaurus]

Just because you can do something legally doesn't always mean you should.

I can legally walk out my back door in my neighborhood and fire my pistol/rifle/shotgun or whatever as long as I have a safe backstop but I shouldn't get all surprised and indignant when my neighbors call the police.

I can legally set my truck on fire in my yard but it should not be a surprise when the fire department shows up to put it out.

You're comparing things that have no benefit (firing your gun randomly in your neighborhood or setting your truck on fire) to something that has great benefits: Open Carry. This is a category error.

The problem is obvious. Your type sees no benefits to Open Carry. The many benefits have been given time after time but you anti-OC people refuse to believe them so you persecute a man because he is smart enough to realize these benefits.

Once again, benefits of Open Carry:

-Easier access to gun

-more comfortable

-Deters crime

-Lets people see normal, pollite, law abiding citizens carrying guns

-plus many more...

Edited September 10, 2011 by kirkosaurus

[Guest kirkosaurus]

And acting stupidly...openly carrying without regard to where you are/when you are/who will see you is what causes school lockdowns and previously "un-posted" properties to be posted against carrying at all - it harms the entire HCP community.

Where is your proof of this? More emotional conjecture?

[Guest WingMan380]

Learn to read my post before you insult me. You fail.

Whatever!!

[RobertNashville]

You're comparing things that have no benefit (firing your gun randomly in your neighborhood or setting your truck on fire) to something that has great benefits: Open Carry. This is a category error.

The problem is obvious. Your type sees no benefits to Open Carry. The many benefits have been given time after time but you anti-OC people refuse to believe them so you persecute a man because he is smart enough to realize these benefits.

Once again, benefits of Open Carry:

-Easier access to gun

-more comfortable

-Deters crime

-Lets people see normal, pollite, law abiding citizens carrying guns

-plus many more...

And where is your proof of this? Is this just more "emotional conjecture"???

And just who is being persecuted here??? Talk about "emotional conjecture"!

What seems "obvious" is that you are presenting opinion to bolster your opinion.

All those "benefits" to open carry that you claim above have been claimed before and generally with as little objective evidence to support the claims as you've offered here. Without evidence to support them, they are just that, claims...claims and opinions and wishful thinking that serve to support your position.

No one in this thread has said that no one should ever open carry or that open carry is "bad" or that open carry is "wrong" or shouldn't be done - all I've said and all most of us have said is that you should do so with discretion and proposing discretion does NOT make someone "anti OC".

Why proposing discretion causes such consternation among some folks is .

Edited September 10, 2011 by RobertNashville

[RobertNashville]

And acting stupidly...openly carrying without regard to where you are/when you are/who will see you is what causes school lockdowns and previously "un-posted" properties to be posted against carrying at all - it harms the entire HCP community.

Where is your proof of this? More emotional conjecture?

No...nothing "emotional" about it and it isn't conjecture.

1. "...openly carrying without regard to where you are/when you are/who will see you is what causes...previously "un-posted" properties to be posted against carry at all":http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/61780-open-carry-triggers-business-post-gun-buster.html

2. This next one was REALLY tough to come up with but with regards to my statement that "...openly carrying without regard to where you are/when you are/who will see you is what causes school lockdowns":http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/61747-open-carry-triggers-school-lock-down-police-say-handgun-carry-permit-holder-did-nothing-wrong.html

Both of the two threads cited above, at least one of which you should be VERY familiar with; have been posted within the past week and support my statement that you seem to take such exception to. Beyond that, if you really want evidence of when openly carrying has resulted in a problem, you are as capable of searching out those items as I am.

As to my statement that carrying inappropriately causes harm to the HCP community; I think these two incidents did harm the HCP community - at the very least, did nothing good for it. I’m sure you would really like these two cited incidents to be seen as “positives” for open carry but as the saying goes, you can put lipstick on a pig but it’s still a pig and any effort to portray these two cited incidents as positives is putting lipstick on a pig.

Edited September 10, 2011 by RobertNashville

[Fallguy]

These people were so concerned that they "reported to a school resource office" instead of the police. What a bunch of idots.

I'm not sure about this school, but in all the other places I know...in TN a "School Resource Officer" is a certified LEO for whatever Police orSheriff's Dept the scholl is located in.

[Guest kirkosaurus]

No...nothing "emotional" about it and it isn't conjecture.

1. "...openly carrying without regard to where you are/when you are/who will see you is what causes...previously "un-posted" properties to be posted against carry at all":http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/61780-open-carry-triggers-business-post-gun-buster.html

Seriously? This is what you call facts? The OP never mentioned what restaurant it was, never posted again in the thread and the thread turned into a talk about signage and DUI. Seriously dude, you even posted in that thread, you should know better.

2. This next one was REALLY tough to come up with but with regards to my statement that "...openly carrying without regard to where you are/when you are/who will see you is what causes school lockdowns":http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/61747-open-carry-triggers-school-lock-down-police-say-handgun-carry-permit-holder-did-nothing-wrong.html

And we've hashed this one out in this thread. All you anti-OC bigots have made up scenerios (as pointed out in my previous post) then bascially convicted and fried a fellow gun owner. Shame on you!

Both of the two threads cited above, at least one of which you should be VERY familiar with; have been posted within the past week and support my statement that you seem to take such exception to. Beyond that, if you really want evidence of when openly carrying has resulted in a problem, you are as capable of searching out those

And as I have stated before (and I repeat myself) I don't deny that OC can cause a problem. ANYTHING can cause a problem to ANYONE. My point (and again I repeat myself) is that the benefits outweigh the problems. The Brady ant-gun people think it's a problem that ANYONE carry concealed. So Robert, why don't you stop carrying your gun altoghther since it causes a problem for some people? What's that? Because the benefits outweigh the problem caused by it? That's what I thought.

[Guest kirkosaurus]

And where is your proof of this? Is this just more "emotional conjecture"???

And just who is being persecuted here??? Talk about "emotional conjecture"!

What seems "obvious" is that you are presenting opinion to bolster your opinion.

Dude, it has been pointed out to you time and time again but you refuse to look at the facts. You are so anti-OC that you are unwilling to even look into it.

All those "benefits" to open carry that you claim above have been claimed before and generally with as little objective evidence to support the claims as you've offered here. Without evidence to support them, they are just that, claims...claims and opinions and wishful thinking that serve to support your position.

OK let's look at my "opinions":

-Easier access to gun

I shouldn't even have to go here. Anyone with half a knowledge on carrying a firearm knows that wearing a firearm openly gives much better access than having to dig your weapon out of your underwear or you front pocket while you're sitting in your car or however else you would conceal a firearm. As I've stated before: If concealed carrying a firearm gives you better access to your gun why don't the police and military do it? Because clearly open carry is tactically superior when it comes to access of your weapon than concealed carry.

-more comfortable

I can admit that this is my opinion but one I believe most others (including you) would agree on. If not please say so Robert. I've used countless different IWB, OWB, pocket holsters, etc. and nothing is more comfortable than having my Glock on my hip. Not digging around in my backside, not digging into my leg in my pocket, not pushing up my conceal garment everytime I move, but actually having my gun exposed on the side of my hip is the most comfortable way to carry.

-Deters crime

This one is a fact. The presence of a gun deters crime. No one wants to mess with someone with a gun. No one wants to leak, as Michael Bane puts it.

In the 2.5 million times a gun is used in self defense less than 8% of the time it is not even fired. The mere presence of a gun deters crime.

Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology

And because you will ask for an example of where OC deters crime well here you go:

Open carry deters armed robbery in Kennesaw - Atlanta gun rights | Examiner.com

I also saw a recent documentary on the populace carrying firearms where prison inmates were interviewed. They claimed they didn't want anyone carrying firearms because they didn't want the resistance. Criminals go after prime sheep targets, they avoid people carrying guns. Criminals dislike armed victims:

http://www.wallsofthecity.net/2009/06/criminals_dislike_armed_victims.html

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'd much rather deter the criminal and prevent the crime altogether rather than have to shoot the BG.

-Lets people see normal, pollite, law abiding citizens carrying guns

And of course this can be seen on some of our own threads here on TGO:

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/handgun-carry-self-defense/53681-open-carry-thread.html

Anyone that has open carried knows that people don't freak out and usually ask about your gun and how they can get a permit to carry. There are far more of these stories than there are the PSH-OMG-MWAG- stories.

Not only does this happen in TN but the other 42 states that have some form of OC.

http://www.wallsofthecity.net/2010/11/all-in-one-place.html

http://www.wallsofthecity.net/2011/08/yesterday-at-best-buy.html

Edited September 10, 2011 by kirkosaurus

[DaveTN]

All you anti -OC bigots

Oh now we are bigots or anti-OC because we think that open carrying into a school zone while kids are headed to school is ignorance beyond belief, or is because we aren’t ignorant enough to believe that open carrying is going to change the mind of those that don’t think people should be carrying guns?

As usual the OC thread has been reduced to name calling by someone that open carries and got all butt hurt. Man the bottom line is that TN allows open carry (for now). So put on your wife beater T-shirt, blouse your pants into your boots, strap on your Glock in your holster with the leg tie down and head to the mall.

[Guest kirkosaurus]

Oh now we are bigots or anti-OC because we think that open carrying into a school zone while kids are headed to school is ignorance beyond belief, or is because we aren’t ignorant enough to believe that open carrying is going to change the mind of those that don’t think people should be carrying guns?

As usual the OC thread has been reduced to name calling by someone that open carries and got all butt hurt. Man the bottom line is that TN allows open carry (for now). So put on your wife beater T-shirt, blouse your pants into your boots, strap on your Glock in your holster with the leg tie down and head to the mall.

So Dave, your highschool comments are any better? How old are you?

The defintition of a bigot:

a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices.

And once again, you have proven how you will embellish on a story because of your bigotry. NO WHERE IN THIS ARTICLE OR ANY OTHER ARTICLE IS IT STATED THAT THE GUY CARRIED A GUN ONTO A SCHOOL ZONE!

Again, you people should be ashamed of yourselves. You add to the story because and condemn one of your own. Again, this is the same thing the anti-gun people do.

[mikegideon]

Oh now we are bigots or anti-OC because we think that open carrying into a school zone while kids are headed to school is ignorance beyond belief, or is because we aren’t ignorant enough to believe that open carrying is going to change the mind of those that don’t think people should be carrying guns?

As usual the OC thread has been reduced to name calling by someone that open carries and got all butt hurt. Man the bottom line is that TN allows open carry (for now). So put on your wife beater T-shirt, blouse your pants into your boots, strap on your Glock in your holster with the leg tie down and head to the mall.

BTW... you'll get more mileage out of it if you dump that baby Glock and get you a REAL gun.

[DaveTN]

BTW... you'll get more mileage out of it if you dump that baby Glock and get you a REAL gun.

I don’t own a Glock. As I’ve said before I wouldn’t walk across the street to get a Glock for free; if I had to keep it.