Gun Sales; New Vs. Used

[DaveTN]

It just doesn’t appear to me that used guns are selling very well, yet it appears a lot of people are buying new.

Has the net killed the used gun market? Many of the guns I see are at, or in some cases above, the cost of new. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen “I’m only trying to get out of this what I have in it”, or “I’ll save you tax and TIC”.

Just five years ago you could find good deals on used. Anymore I’m buying new for less than a lot of the used guns I see that I want.

Discuss.

[Guest bkelm18]

A lot of times, especially with online shops like Buds, you can find prices on new guns cheaper than what most people ask for their used guns. Not to mention, more than once, I've bought something from Buds and when I went to pick it up at my dealer, they said they were surprised at the price and that it was cheaper than they could have gotten it themselves from their distributors.

[D3vo]

Cars; Guns; You name it. The delta between cost new and cost used must be grounded in reality or I buy new every time.

To your question. Tax and TIC on 600.00 isn't going to persuade me to buy used.

[Fivestring63]

I guess people are wanting top dollar for their used guns because of the bad economy. On top of that, maybe good priced used guns are hard to find because people snatch them up and new ones are the better option than buying used ones at the same price.

[AMSting]

Some people buy used to avoid officially linking the gun to themselves. I was at an auction where people bid pistols up to at least 20% over the cost of new. One guy balked at paying when he found out the auction company needed his address.

[Jonnin]

People want to get what they can when they sell, and the gun industry makes it so they paid out the nose for it when they got it. The buyer gets taken even on "good deals" -- with 10% tax, background check, possibly transfer fees or shipping, etc, gun shop prices, and more. A lot of "used" guns barely have 5 boxes thru them, they are "basically brand new". The buyer wants to sell it and get 85% of his money back (for example) and finds a brick wall: his price is more than bud's list price (nevermind the shipping and fees and all that, the buyer often cannot understand the bottom line vs the list price). That makes both sides frustrated.

Throw in that cheap guns are hard to sell right now. If I sold a $200 pistol that was 2.5 hours away, I would spend $50 in gas and $10-20 for food on the way, and I try to buy stuff if the meeting place is a gun shop, just to be nice/supportive/whatever, so time I get home I would be lucky to have over $100 left. Gas and food killed a lot of cheap gun sales, face to face stuff, IMHO.

My dad was big into buying used to avoid any paperwork, he got that way about the time of the brady/clinton bs laws, and never really stopped worring after those were passed.

[Guest Revelator]

I see great deals in the classified section here all the time, although I'm not sure how they compare to Bud's. I don't go to Bud's website; it it like the WalMart of online guns? It's a buyer's market. Few people, at least on this site, are selling their guns for what they paid. Buying used from an individual has its drawbacks but I prefer it to 4473s and certainly to transfers. The best way to buy a gun through the classifieds is when you don't really need it, you just see a good deal.

Edited August 30, 2011 by P. Stegall

[Dolomite_supafly]

I have seen some absolutely crazy used gun prices mostly by local dealers. This weekend I saw a heavily used Taurus for $480. The same gun I can buy new for $362 out the door through Buds, that includes the transfer and the TICS for $362. Saw a very well used 10/22 for $450. Another dealer had a used Sigma with a $350 price tag on it. We offered $250 because we bought a NEW one that morning for $300 out the door from a local dealer. Dealer wouldn't even counter offer, just said no.

And finally I saw a Keltec PMR-30 at a show, held it and thought it might be nice to have. That was until I saw the price tag, it was either $579 or $549 don't remember exactly. That dealer is a prominent dealer at all the shows and I have told no less than a dozen friends to avoid purchasing from him.

I watched a dealer buy a pistol I was going to offer to buy from the guy. The guy wanted $250 which was fair. The dealer paid the guy $150 then put a tag on it for $300. I stood there the entire time then asked the dealer if he would come down and he said he had $300 in it and that I could buy it with no tax or TICS for that.

The most disturbing part of dealing with the dealers is most will not even entertain an offer less than what is on the tag on used guns. I have asked if they would take less only to have them laugh or just ignore me.

I am not going to spend more for a used gun than it costs me for same gun new. I am all about supporting the local guys but I will not hand them $200 more just to say I bought local. I have tried to deal with nearly every dealer at the shows at some point over the last 2 years. After trying to deal with the same dealers during the show this weekend I have swore off supporting all but only one or two local dealers.

If they can't compete then they need to go under, end of story. The complain they don't make any money yet they choose to overpay their distributors. They can be competetive but they choose not to. And if they got screwed it is on them they shouldn't get mad when I won't let them screw me.

Dolomite

[kieefer]

Personally I'd rather not buy guns on the net, just me.

You'd think paying cash at a dealer would get you a better deal than 3% off, which is all I've been offered. Even on used guns. If i knew I could get a deal, meaning $50 or $100 off on a used gun I buy more from a dealer. I think that's where their biggest profit comes from. Otherwise I'd rather buy on here or from friends.

I was offered $150 for my new LC9 with 25 rnds through it and was told that's all they could do and they wouldn't budge on a new pistol which I was wanting to trade.

The only time I did get a deal at a dealer was when the tag was marked incorrectly, it rang up higher, actually $50 higher but they honored the ticket price.

I will usually buy something when I stop, mostly a box of ammo just to throw my support to the locals. But you think if a dealer has a large selection of used guns they'd be willing to deal.

It's the times I guess, sales were great when Clinton first got in, despite the economy, the gun stores do well and maybe take advantage of it.

[monkeylizard]

There's no question that dealers like Bud's, GlockWorld, and CDNN have changed the game. So did Amazon and iTunes. The locals need to find a way to lean on their distributors a LOT more or they'll be the next Blockbuster, Borders, or Tower Records. Bud's saw the power of the Internet and jumped on it. I don't know why local shops can't do the same thing. I understand their costs are higher from the distributors, but you have to start somewhere. An e-store with an inventory system isn't horribly expensive to setup and can really drive a lot of traffic, both in e-sales and in getting customers into the store. Plus it cuts down on phone calls tying up staff telling customers if a gun is in stock and what the asking price is. A website with an address, phone number, and picture of the store? Please. Just take out an ad in the Yellow Pages. 1992 will be right with you.

Edited August 30, 2011 by monkeylizard

[peejman]

Why? Availability of information.

Google can find all I need to know about most any gun in a couple minutes. While I don't have a "smart phone", most people do and can look up things on the spot. It's easy to find a fair price for just about anything, hence you rarely see used guns at absurdly low prices.

At the same time, there's a sucker born every minute. Seems a number of dealers still wish to take advantage of those folks and price things way too high. They've made lucrative careers off other people's ignorance. I don't really fault them for that, they are in the business of making money and with information so readily available, you'd have to be a fool to pay such high prices. And we all know, a fool and his money are soon parted.

[daddyo]

I have bought several used firearms from Bud's. All of them have been as new and pristine.

[TGO David]

It just doesn’t appear to me that used guns are selling very well, yet it appears a lot of people are buying new.

In stores? I would agree to an extent.

Among individuals? Hardly. Used guns are selling quite fast; a look at the Trading Post areas on TGO is proof of that.

[Guest GunTroll]

Its cut throat out there. I swore to myself I would never get into selling firearms new or used. Just not my thing.

Not a answer to DaveTN's question and slightly off topic but...

I will say this. I doubt any of the other dealers that frequent TGO will comment (probably wise not to) but you guys need to take into consideration the amount of regulations both FED & State, liability coverage, license fees FED & STATE & County, rent/mortgage, employee cost and all expenses that go with that alone, property tax, etc, etc, before damning the local shops. Buds has low overhead. Take your pick at shops here in TN and I'll bet you the profit margin is very slim after you factor all the cost of being in business. Its rough! So yes attempting to make $50-75 on a POS Sigma that cost a dealer $250-ish before shipping sounds fair to me. If it doesn't sound fair to you, get yourself a FFL. It will open your eyes ! Keep buying from the modern Net version of Walmart and see what that gets you in the long run.

Great topic Dave!

ETA: I'd also like to know why its standard fare to haggle gun prices? Do you do that at Walmart when buying firearms? Do you do it at Lowes when buying wood? You do it a a car lot, or at least I do. Why gun shops? Do you do it a Buds even?

And for you shops..I like you shops that put what it is on the sticker without making me haggle. If you can and will give me a better deal, do it in the first place. Don't make me work for it! Not that I do ! Me means us in this case.

Edited August 30, 2011 by GunTroll

[Troutburger]

I have an FFL 01, and here's where I got burnt on a couple of deals.

I purchased the following:

Taurus 85

Sig 522

Sig 556 classic

From wholesale distributors.

Then the manufacturer dropped their price. So for example the Sig 556 that I paid appx $1100 for wholesale was dropped to $975 retail via buds...with free shipping...and no tax. I don't see how full time gunshops stay in business.

Used guns don't seem to be moving at all. Good old fashioned horse trading seems like the best option at this point since cash is hard to come by these days...

[Smith]

Personally I'd rather not buy guns on the net, just me.

You'd think paying cash at a dealer would get you a better deal than 3% off, which is all I've been offered. Even on used guns. If i knew I could get a deal, meaning $50 or $100 off on a used gun I buy more from a dealer. I think that's where their biggest profit comes from. Otherwise I'd rather buy on here or from friends.

I used to think this way ... till I starteed working in a gun store. The GOAL is to have a $50 to $100 margin in a used gun. There is very little margin on guns new or used. If someone is negotiating that much then they are paying you to take the gun.

There's no question that dealers like Bud's, GlockWorld, and CDNN have changed the game.

CDNN is a distributor that advertises their prices to everyone. They are selling at dealer cost. No local stores can not compete with that. Buds margin is $10-$20 on a gun and they work off of a volume basis. They are the Walm-Mart of gun stores. Very few smaller stores can compete with them. That being said, we have found we can get fairly close once everything is factored. The main difference is tax.

They really need to start charging tax on online purcheses and then competiton will be much more in line. How's that for stirring the pot!

Edited August 30, 2011 by Smith

[Guest GunTroll]

No way on the online taxing enforcement/collecting ! I mean I guess there already is a law on the books that you are suppose to pay tax for out of state purchases. I say its up the the buyer to pay them directly to the state (which is how it is whether they do it or not is little concern to me). I don't want to be forced to collect tax on something I'm not selling but only offering a service, which is the transfer.

ETA: Coming from you/your guys point of view I could see it be an equalizer, but I simply just can't be pro more regs, laws, and taxation requirements/burdens. Got enough of that crap already as you know

Headache!!!!

Edited August 30, 2011 by GunTroll

[Smith]

No way on the online taxing enforcement/collecting ! I mean I guess there already is a law on the books that you are suppose to pay tax for out of state purchases. I say its up the the buyer to pay them directly to the state (which is how it is whether they do it or not is little concern to me). I don't want to be forced to collect tax on something I'm not selling but only offering a service, which is the transfer.

Headache!!!!

You already know this, but services are not taxed anyway so that wouldn't matter.

[Guest GunTroll]

Your right.

It depends I suppose. From TN dept of Rev.

Is labor (on real property or tangible property) taxable?

All labor inherent to the creation, installation, or repair of tangible personal property, as well as the parts or materials are subject to the tax. Labor to install or repair real property is not subject to the sales tax.

[Guest GunTroll]

That's where I'm coming from. Again, I don't do retail in the traditional sense.

[Dolomite_supafly]

ETA: I'd also like to know why its standard fare to haggle gun prices? Do you do that at Walmart when buying firearms? Do you do it at Lowes when buying wood? You do it a a car lot, or at least I do. Why gun shops? Do you do it a Buds even?

I haggle all the time. As a matter of fact if I am spending more than $100 anywhere I talk to the manager.

The results?

I have been given disounts at Home Depot when asking the maanger if they can drop the price down. This is on top of the 10% I already get on a regular basis. And yes Lowes will do the same thing if you tell them Home Depot will.

As far as Buds goes there is a specific person I will deal with there since I have had problems in the past. And that person generally gives a discount as well. Not much but 5% on a $500 gun is a box of ammo. Or the other thing they have done is overnight the firearm.

Even at Walmart you would be surprised what the managers can do for you if you ask.

And I am not talking scratch and dent items either.

It seems as though gun dealers are the only ones with no wiggle room. There are plenty of other business' out there that probably have better profit margins than what the dealers are screaming about all the time. A hotdog stand probably has better profit margins than what the dealers are claiming.

Dolomite

[monkeylizard]

And a large part of that comes back to their cost of inventory. If a business has a competitor selling product for less than they can buy it, they have to (a) find new ways to motivate the supplier to lower costs ( find a new supplier or © go out of business.

Option (d) is hope people don't find out about the lower priced competitor, but that's just biding time until ©.

[Jonnin]

I am not 100% sure of course but I suspect a couple of the gun stores, even the big name ones, sell guns as a "service" to their customers and make up for it with accessories, ammo, targets, or in some cases, a range on location. I will pick on sportsmans warehouse for example... I spend a fair amount of time in there, but have not bought a firearm or ever seen anyone else buying a firearm in the store. Looking, yes, but buying, never. But what I do see are tons of people with $200 or more in reloading supplies or ammo in their cart, along with the occasional optics or other gear.

[Guest GunTroll]

I haggle all the time. As a matter of fact if I am spending more than $100 anywhere I talk to the manager.

The results?

I have been given disounts at Home Depot when asking the maanger if they can drop the price down. This is on top of the 10% I already get on a regular basis. And yes Lowes will do the same thing if you tell them Home Depot will.

As far as Buds goes there is a specific person I will deal with there since I have had problems in the past. And that person generally gives a discount as well. Not much but 5% on a $500 gun is a box of ammo. Or the other thing they have done is overnight the firearm.

Even at Walmart you would be surprised what the managers can do for you if you ask.

And I am not talking scratch and dent items either.

It seems as though gun dealers are the only ones with no wiggle room. There are plenty of other business' out there that probably have better profit margins than what the dealers are screaming about all the time. A hotdog stand probably has better profit margins than what the dealers are claiming.

Dolomite

Your that guy eh? If it works for you...

[Adamant]

I am not 100% sure of course but I suspect a couple of the gun stores, even the big name ones, sell guns as a "service" to their customers and make up for it with accessories, ammo, targets, or in some cases, a range on location. I will pick on sportsmans warehouse for example... I spend a fair amount of time in there, but have not bought a firearm or ever seen anyone else buying a firearm in the store. Looking, yes, but buying, never. But what I do see are tons of people with $200 or more in reloading supplies or ammo in their cart, along with the occasional optics or other gear.

I see this too!! I walk into sportmans because the have a larger selection than most of the other stores around here, however, it seems they are a little higher on everything as well. Lots of window shoppers but seldom any buyers