380 Question...

[Guest TnRebel]

My thoughts on the 380 ( I do carry as a BUG ) but 90% of the LEO's I know carry a 380 as a BUG , If the situation arises to need the BUG to save your life , then it has to be adequate .

[dbla]

I really like my Sig P238. This is a pistol that should always, always, be carred in a pocket holster if you intend to pocket carry.

I have the Sig P238 leather pocket holster and it completely covers the safety. The safety itself is very firm. Even so, I would never carry this in the pocket without the holster. The weapon itself draws nicely from the holster without any issues. The holster protects from printing and can be used in either the front, or rear pocket, or even in a suit or jacket inner pocket. This is my summer carry when wearing light clothing, shorts etc.

Rob

I love the sig. IF I could afford it, I'd be all over it.

I've found a good deal on an LCP with the CT laser so I'm going to head that route. Perhaps the Sig will be my second EDC gun, once I get a new job. ;-)

-a

[Ebow1]

That's only 3 question.

[dbla]

That's only 3 question.

3 question?

[xRUSTYx]

when I had my P238's ... I carried cocked & locked in an Uncle Mikes 24/7. Didn't cover the safety, and after about day 2 of keeping it such, I had no more issues.

the biggest hurdle for cocked & locked = its all a mind game.

Assuming you have a good trigger guard, and the safety is engaged, it was just like carrying my PM9 with a good pocket holster.

[Jonnin]

Have been curious about Sig P238. Looks like a nice gadget. It doesn't have a grip safety does it?

Would not be afraid to pocket carry a P238 or other tiny SA cocked and locked, but would want some kind of pocket holster that protects the safety switch in addition to the trigger guard. Maybe that is silly if they also have trigger firing pin blocks. It would be a shame for the safety to get jiggled off in one's pocket though.

It does not have a grip safety. The safety has a positive lock, a ball bearing on a spring that pops into a socket when its on safe, and it takes a bit of force to move it back to fire. Not saying it will never, ever drop to fire in your pocket after being bumped or something, but its not easy to do and a holster does wonders to ensure that it is safe. The biggest problem I have with mine is a hard knock to my pocket can release the magazine, it drops about 1/4 an inch out the bottom of the gun and I have to casually put my hand in my pocket to push it back in. Its something I quietly check on if anything hits the gun thru my clothes. If worried about this style of carry, I would chamber it and leave it uncocked, but everyone has to go with their own comfort level. I see NO way this gun can fire if the hammer is down.

While I am a fan of no holster carry for some guns, this design is not one that I feel comfortable doing that with. My px4, sure, the long DA pull for the first shot prevents accidental trigger pull. My makarov, same thing. But not the 238 if cocked and locked. If I go without a holster for this gun, it will be hammer down carry.

I forget where you are LW, but if you are near you are welcome to try mine.

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Thanks Jonnin

I'm in Red Bank. We ought to get together sometime.

That P238 pocket holster pic posted by RobThatsMe looks handsome and practical. Covers the safety, and given the way it is cut around the mag release-- Maybe the thickness of the leather might help prevent accidentally mashing the mag release in pocket?

When I've tried to pocket-carry without a holster the gun kept wanting to turn sideways or upside-down in the pocket. But I don't feel safe without a pocket holster covering the trigger, even with stiff DA. With the pocket holster the trigger stays covered sitting on the nightstand, and it stays covered when putting the combination in the pocket, and the trigger stays covered when removing the combination from the pocket. At least a little day-to-day protection against clumsy accidents.

[Guest RobThatsMe]

Hi LW,

The holster I bought from the Sig site. It went for $25.00, but they had a special, and picked it up for $20.

It also had the laser block installed, and can be easily removed it you added the P238 laser to the weapon.

P238 Leather Pocket Holster

Rob

[Guest 19colt11]

So, I just went to the gun shop... I've been looking at the Ruger LCP for an EDC gun... But I keep reading stuff about the .380 being underpowered. I went and looked at the Kel Tec PF9, and the Ruger LC9. Ideally I would like to pocket carry, just works with the way I live my life day to day, there two guns seem a little too big... and frankly I don't wanna have to go buy pants a waist size larger to fit my piece (referring to my gun here, har har) in there. Maybe there's a better way to carry a larger frame? Or is the .380 a decent round? I mean, I can't imagine someone getting hit with a .380 ACP Hydrashock round and not being phased. Any feedback?

The cartridge has been used in Europe for many many years as a basic police pistol cartridge, where armed police are possibly more symbolic than than useful. However they have used it effectively when needed.

I sometimes pocket carry a NAA Guardian in .380 when the dress code won't allow me to carry a full size 1911. I definitely believe that the .380 is sufficiently powerful for defensive needs. It is more powerful than the .32 ACP that I carried when I first started carrying full time. Even so, both calibers are at best short range defenses.

My brother-in-law also carries a .380 as his full-time carry and is not worried about it being a weak cartridge.

[Jonnin]

The cartridge has been used in Europe for many many years as a basic police pistol cartridge, where armed police are possibly more symbolic than than useful. However they have used it effectively when needed.

I sometimes pocket carry a NAA Guardian in .380 when the dress code won't allow me to carry a full size 1911. I definitely believe that the .380 is sufficiently powerful for defensive needs. It is more powerful than the .32 ACP that I carried when I first started carrying full time. Even so, both calibers are at best short range defenses.

My brother-in-law also carries a .380 as his full-time carry and is not worried about it being a weak cartridge.

Much of the USSR and to some extent china carried the 9x18 round as a military or police (is there a difference in these places?) sidearm. It is a 380 in all but the name (with their surplus ammo). It served these places well for decades as a sidearm, adding to the use of 380s in europe. It must work; such forces would not have accepted the caliber if it did not.

[edellson]

For your cc you want something you will actually carry on you. This means it must be easily concealed and comfortably carried. Hands down imo is the kt380 or lcp carried in a billfold holster. Mine goes with me everywhere effortlessly. I really mean I never know its there, unless I run. As far as stopping power 2 well placed rounds of any caliber will stop most all non doped up bad guys even a 22.

[Guest Kimber45]

In the warmer months I pocket carry an LCP, every day, all day. The handgun that I hope I never need to use in self defense is better in my pocket all the time, than home in the safe or drawer. Small 380s are easy to carry consistantly and full time, regardless of how you are dressed. I use a DeSantis pocket nylon ballistic holster most of the time, but also just drop the gun in my pocket sometimes. Especially late at night walking the dogs just before bed. People talk about the best caliber. In my opinion, the best caliber is the one you have with you at the time of need. Really, who wants to be on the recieving end of 7 rounds of 380?

[dbla]

Alright guys, a little update:

I'm carrying right now, LCP is in the pocket. Here's my though process behind opting for the LCP vs. the Taurus, Diamondback, Keltec etc etc....

I've shot it. That's really the beginning and end of it. I rented one, put a box through it, and liked it. If I stuck to what I read in reviews, I wouldn't buy anything because the fact of the matter is auto-loaders jam, micro frames jam more. So I had to go with the known quantity.

I knew I didn't want the Diamondback because, while I realize maybe 70% of the reviews on the web are written by people with an axe to grind, but when reviewers that I trust (nutnfancy, gunblast, etc) say 1. that they LOVED the gun, and 2. that it jammed, stovepiped, FTF, FTE, and failed to reset like a mofo I take notice. I'm sure you have a great copy of the diamondback that works perfect, but I can't take that chance, my cash flow is tight enough that I could only buy one and couldn't afford to lose some value in buying and reselling.

I didn't really want the Kel Tec just because it didn't feel as finished as the Ruger, sure Ruger copied them... thus is life in the business world.

The Sig, ohhh the Sig... I would have traded a kidney for the Sig IF... it had a left-hand friendly safety. But it doesn't, if they come out with one... I'll start saving the shekels once again.

As far as the 380 issue goes, it's powerful enough to deter anything I think I would come in contact with... maybe that's naive, but it's my first carry gun (which is also my second gun purchase ever). Maybe once I become comfortable with having a gun on me (I'm pretty aware of the gun on me right now), I'll upgrade to a 9mm but for now I'll stick with my .380.

[xRUSTYx]

dbla ... just ask and ye shall receive

they make an ambidextrous safety for the Sig P238

Found Here: Customized Creationz Custom Gun Works Shop

[dbla]

dbla ... just ask and ye shall receive

they make an ambidextrous safety for the Sig P238

Found Here: Customized Creationz Custom Gun Works Shop

Hah, that's awesome, but I can only assume that would cost more + the cost of the gun... Maybe in a different life... Poor newlywed here with a liberal arts degree. ;-)

[Jonnin]

I am also a lefty and that is a frustrating issue -- it always costs you $50 extra per gun to get the controls swapped, if not more. Its not just the safety, I like to get the mag drop button swapped too, so its even more pricy for me. Even worse you can rarely find a left handed control, often you HAVE to get ambi which are fat and ugly. Just need one on the left, not one on each side, why is that hard to understand? I left my sig as it was and shoot it right handed, which is no big deal for me after years of shooting in a right handed world, I feel confident I can use the gun right handed to handle an assault. I may one day swap it to left handed, or get parts to do so, but it has not been a priority.

[partypilot1]

As a primary carry weapon, the .380 is a very poor choice. Moreover, using any blowback operated firearm as a primary carry, when you have a choice, is a poor one. The firearm, which is already "low-powered", suffers greater energy loss from the action operation (cycling a cartridge). Let's call to mind Newton's third law, for every action there is an equal yet opposite reaction. The firing bullet uses the back of the gun to project itself forward into space. A blowback operated gun uses that force to cycle the action, thus taking kinetic energy away from the fired projectile, which is already considered a low-powered round. Most, if not all, low-powered ammunition used in a pistol will be blowback operated because the bullet doesn't carry enough energy in the gasses alone to cycle the action of the firearm.

The other issue to address is relying on hollow pointed ammunition to increase the temporary cavity that the .380 lacks. Failure to mushroom, improper mushroom or a "pre-mushroom" (mushroom on clothing, which greatly reduces kinetic energy before body penetration) is a likely possibility.

Your safest bet will ALWAYS be more power for greater penetration. Greater penetration for faster incapacitation....

[Guest kcb37]

I recently bought a Ruger, LCP. I have only shot 50 rounds so far.

My mom and dad have 5 acre's that myself and my brother in law shot at. I should say we shot 50 rounds thru mine to include my dad. All 3 of us also shot his 9mm glock to the tune of over 150 rounds. Think he said around 175. As a back drop we had a large log. Somewhat rotten on the bottom.

After shooting all our rounds (that we wanted to just shoot) we rolled the log over and started picking up the actual rounds. Needless to say we did pickup more of my brother in laws rounds, but mine were also just as far as his.

I am not saying this will be as powerful as a 9mm, it won't be. However I see no reason this cannot be a primary weapon. Keep your shot group tight and you will be fine.

Like someone said in I think the first page, if you don't think it's enough power why not let someone shoot you with it? Won't kill ya it's not big enough. Just seems stupid to me.

Go out and shoot with it, get a good shot group as close as you can, and keep shooting it to keep your shot group good.

If you are worried about a hollow point opening to soon, rotate each round. Ball, hollow, ball, hollow.

[dbla]

As a primary carry weapon, the .380 is a very poor choice. Moreover, using any blowback operated firearm as a primary carry, when you have a choice, is a poor one. The firearm, which is already "low-powered", suffers greater energy loss from the action operation (cycling a cartridge). Let's call to mind Newton's third law, for every action there is an equal yet opposite reaction. The firing bullet uses the back of the gun to project itself forward into space. A blowback operated gun uses that force to cycle the action, thus taking kinetic energy away from the fired projectile, which is already considered a low-powered round. Most, if not all, low-powered ammunition used in a pistol will be blowback operated because the bullet doesn't carry enough energy in the gasses alone to cycle the action of the firearm.

The other issue to address is relying on hollow pointed ammunition to increase the temporary cavity that the .380 lacks. Failure to mushroom, improper mushroom or a "pre-mushroom" (mushroom on clothing, which greatly reduces kinetic energy before body penetration) is a likely possibility.

Your safest bet will ALWAYS be more power for greater penetration. Greater penetration for faster incapacitation....

I think my problem with this method of thinking is simple. The unwisest choice for an Edc gun is one that is bigger than you're willing to carry, thus the best choice regardless of caliber and stopping power is the one that best fits your lifestyle. ANY gun will give an attacker some pause, sure if he's cracked out on PCP and just wants blood I may be in some trouble, but I'll still be better off armed than not. For me, that's the LCP, for now. Maybe once I'm more comfortable carrying I'll get an iwb with a 45 acp or something, but right now I know I'd leave that at home 95% of the time. While the LCP is with me as I'm typing this.

[JReedEsq]

Keep your shot group tight and you will be fine.

This IMHO is the real issue with most of the pocket pistols. Keeping a tight group with a .380 pocket pistol is definitely possible; but can you do it as well or as quickly as with your BIL's Glock? I doubt it. The shorter more positive reset on the Glock makes it far more controlable to double or triple tap. In addition to better sights etc... help you to shoot better groups unless you're spending a lot of money on pricey .380 practice ammo. I'm not knocking the .380, just pointing out that I own a P3AT, but I don't like it for primary carry. With my .380 I can shoot it quickly or accurately (at SD range), but not both. My next smallest weapon, a Glock 26 is in my pocket right now primarily because it's more "shootable", in other words it operates much more like a big gun, than a pocket pistol. The icing on the cake is that imuch more firepower to boot. Eleven 124 grain JHP that I'm sure will expand is much more comforting to me than 7 rounds of any .380. I'm not saying you guys should get rid of your pocket pistols, or than I'm going to get rid of mine, just that you may want to also consider getting a larger gun as well. For me, I limit the .380 to times I can't comfortably conceal anything else.

Edited August 31, 2011 by JReedEsq

[dbla]

This IMHO is the real issue with most of the pocket pistols. Keeping a tight group with a .380 pocket pistol is definitely possible; but can you do it as well or as quickly as with your BIL's Glock? I doubt it. The shorter more positive reset on the Glock makes it far more controlable to double or triple tap. In addition to better sights etc... help you to shoot better groups unless you're spending a lot of money on pricey .380 practice ammo. I'm not knocking the .380, just pointing out that I own a P3AT, but I don't like it for primary carry. With my .380 I can shoot it quickly or accurately (at SD range), but not both. My next smallest weapon, a Glock 26 is in my pocket right now primarily because it's more "shootable", in other words it operates much more like a big gun, than a pocket pistol. The icing on the cake is that imuch more firepower to boot. Eleven 124 grain JHP that I'm sure will expand is much more comforting to me than 7 rounds of any .380. I'm not saying you guys should get rid of your pocket pistols, or than I'm going to get rid of mine, just that you may want to also consider getting a larger gun as well. For me, I limit the .380 to times I can't comfortably conceal anything else.

Fair enough, but I still go back to what I said earlier... If I couldn't fit a Glock 26 in my pockets and my lifestyle at the moment doesn't lend itself to IWB carry is it better to not carry, or to carry a .380? I don't subscribe to the "alter your lifestyle to the gun you want to carry" idea. I know you're not bashing a .380, but I maintain that a dual barrel .22 derringer is better than my fists. (maybe)

-a

[JAB]

For the record, I have fired a smallish 9mm Glock that my grandfather in law had for a short time. All it did for me was reinforce the fact that I don't like Glocks and they don't fit my hands well. I shoot my P3AT better than I could ever shoot that Glock.

The P3AT is not a blowback gun. Neither is Ruger's copy of it. Also, part of the reason for the 'pocket .380 craze' is that the P3AT spurred ammo companies to develop better SD loads for small .380 pistols. Many of those companies actually used the P3AT as the test gun for developing those loads so that they could be matched to the type of gun they would be carried in.

Edited August 31, 2011 by JAB

[Guest The Highlander]

My wife's little LCP is a great carry gun. Fairly accurate for the distances it would likely be used at as well. She does prefer her LC9 for purse carry though. The sights are much better and it is a pretty easy 9mm to shoot. I typically carry a Glock G19, G17, EMP, or a SIG P220. But I am not at all concerned about printing. The little LCP is a great pocket pistol and is frequently my second gun in that role. A .380 isn't as effective as a 10mm, duh. But much better than harsh words.

[Jonnin]

This IMHO is the real issue with most of the pocket pistols. Keeping a tight group with a .380 pocket pistol is definitely possible; but can you do it as well or as quickly as with your BIL's Glock? I doubt it. The shorter more positive reset on the Glock makes it far more controlable to double or triple tap. In addition to better sights etc... help you to shoot better groups unless you're spending a lot of money on pricey .380 practice ammo. I'm not knocking the .380, just pointing out that I own a P3AT, but I don't like it for primary carry. With my .380 I can shoot it quickly or accurately (at SD range), but not both. My next smallest weapon, a Glock 26 is in my pocket right now primarily because it's more "shootable", in other words it operates much more like a big gun, than a pocket pistol. The icing on the cake is that imuch more firepower to boot. Eleven 124 grain JHP that I'm sure will expand is much more comforting to me than 7 rounds of any .380. I'm not saying you guys should get rid of your pocket pistols, or than I'm going to get rid of mine, just that you may want to also consider getting a larger gun as well. For me, I limit the .380 to times I can't comfortably conceal anything else.

I can shoot my 380 faster than I can shoot any glock, even the realy long slide ones. It has a shorter, tighter, better trigger than any glock, and lower recoil as well. I reload my practice ammo, but not my carry ammo, so its $4 per box of 50 roughly -- same as my practice 9mm actually. Many of your points are due to your specific circumstances (gun model, inability to reload, etc) and have little or nothing to do with the 380 round as a caliber or choice. I agree a larger pistol in a larger caliber with more rounds is more powerful, no doubt about it, but there are pros and cons to every gun choice. I could go buy a kel tec p-11 and tell you that the 9mm round sucks, its the same thing... DAO guns are just not fun to shoot for anyone short of a weightlifter

[Guest Lester Weevils]

Hi LW,

The holster I bought from the Sig site. It went for $25.00, but they had a special, and picked it up for $20.

It also had the laser block installed, and can be easily removed it you added the P238 laser to the weapon.

P238 Leather Pocket Holster

Thanks Rob

Does your p238 holster stay in the pocket good when you draw? Does it have a "sticky backing" or whatever to help it stay in the pocket?

I carry the "largish" (but smaller than glock 26) Kahr P9 in an inexpensive Uncle Mike's "size 3" pocket holster. Guess it is nylon with a fuzzy-texture synthetic exterior of some kind. It fits the P9 perfectly and is about a year old and no worse for wear so far. If I draw quickly the Uncle Mike's stays in the pocket pretty reliably.

Added Crimson Trace laser grips to a S&W .357 mag snubbie and NAA .380 Guardian. Both were previous carry guns for years. Had difficulty seeing the sights on both guns, and difficulty shooting them accurately.

Put each gun in a panavise and aimed it (using the iron sights) at a dot on the shop wall. Then adjusted the laser to also point to the same dot.

The laser grips didn't do much good. Maybe they really help some folks. I wasn't any more accurate with the laser than with the hard-to-see iron sights, and except in near-darkness the laser dot was at least as difficult to "quickly find" as were the minimal iron sights.

The P9 with XS Big Dot sights is a lot easier to aim and quickly put the sights on target. And the bigger grip and lighter trigger makes it easier to hit the aim point compared to the other two. Am guessing an SA such as the P238 might be a little more accurate than the P9, though a smaller grip. Assuming one can put something like big dots on the gun. The P9 DA trigger is pretty good but I'm just not good with DA trigger control.